Trade : Conor Timmins and Isaac Belliveau from the Pittsburgh Penguins in exchange for Connor Clifton and the 39th overall pick in the 2025 NHL Draft.

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The context was Perreault’s post. The part you bolded is me disagreeing with his numbers on his terms.

The part you considered extra was me framing the argument in my own terms, the terms I think are relevant

And I’d apply that argument against your assist argument as well.

For example.

JJ Peterka’s assist would not exist without Byram forcing Marner to rush his shot so UPL could make a clean save directing the puck to Dahlin’s corner where he quickly flipped it to Tuch who happened to be exactly where he should be and fed it to Peterka streaking up the opposite boards who took the D wide and dropped it back to a space created by Byram rushing the net for Tage who beat Woll with a perfect wrister.

Every player on the ice contributed, not just Peterka and Tuch with the assists.

Agree and JJ does things like that on goals he doesn’t get the points for I just think all else being equal the guys with the higher point totals are the guys contributing most to offence

when we traded Eichel you wouldn’t say “goals” would you? Well you probably would but it wouldn’t be very fair would it? You are sort of over complicating what I’m saying. I’m simply saying it makes more sense to look at points than goals. It’s not perfect but it’s closer  

Edited 8 hours ago by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

That was the best part about trading Eichel- you don’t trade playmaking, just “goals” 

What did Eichel have his last year? 2 goals? 

2 goals out. Mathing.

- - - 

You don’t want to trade a guy like Norris cause his goals assist ratio is too weighted towards goals

you trade playmakers or guys with high assist totals - the “goals out” calculation doesn’t need to take that into equation so it’s a pretty damn good strategy  

Honestly have we considered moving Dahlin? Had we moved Dahlin for Doan we’d only have been out 6 goals. That would have been my move

 

Peterka had 41 assists last year. The Kesselring, Doan, Norris combo had 47, combined

Peterka had 41 assists last year. jAsh Norris has 67, in 8 years since being drafted

 

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I know you made reference to “there’s more to it” but it’s an X for me because assist totals for me aren’t “more to it.” They are simply “it.” That’s raw offence.

”Goals scored that’s 34 in, 46 out. It’s not 20 or 30 the defence needs to make up, it’s 12.

But it’s way more complicated than that.

How will the moves affect the power play, the PK, line chemistry, line matchups, situational deployments, the forecheck, the backcheck, puck battles, rush offence, rush defence, exits and entries, the cycle game, getting to the net, blocking out, D zone structure, the room…?”

This reads pretty firmly as “it’s 12 goals, for offence, and then other stuff”

I just disagree. Assists deserve to be included with / attributed to raw offence. The “goals” we will need to replace. It’s not chemistry, or rush offence, or any of the stuff you mentioned 

it’s offence. The calculation doesn’t start at 34 in, 46 out. 
 

I don’t think it’s just an oversimplification - I think it’s an oversimplification to the extent of being functionally meaningless in terms of a discussion point 

I mean, you are literally taking a larger conversation about production out of context and then turning into something it isn't. No one, and I mean NO ONE, believes you just say oh well we subtract 30JJP goals and add in 18 of these other goals and that's our total! because that would be stupid. It is contextualizing how much offensive production this roster lost overall compared to what he currently has. You don't need to get flippant about it because you think JJPs 41 assists are being ignored. What about Cozens atrocious defense? What about Clifton being off the roster and so far fewer giveaways? What about Doan being able to force Greenway down a line? What about Quinn being healthy? What about Norris being healthy or not? What about JJPs role in Buffalo playing with Tage Thompson versus his role in Utah? What about the goalies Buffalo faced and system they play. 

We know it is more complicated, but we started with goals and can move on to other things.

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It isn't more objective. You then start to ignore roles, toi, team structure. None of this is more objective. 

Also, I went into JJP assists. If you think Peterka is going to run at 1 secondary assist per 60mins again this year, fine but I will bet on that dropping without Tage or Tuch being on his line. Over half his assists are 2nd assists and those fluctuate. 41 assists! LOOK! yea but 23 of those were 2nd assists. 

@Thornydisagree with this all you want but 23 of his 41 assists are 2nd assists. His primary assist rate is the same as Zach Benson's. I think Peterka will get 25+ goals in Utah but I don't think he gets 41assists. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

I mean, you are literally taking a larger conversation about production out of context and then turning into something it isn't. No one, and I mean NO ONE, believes you just say oh well we subtract 30JJP goals and add in 18 of these other goals and that's our total! because that would be stupid. It is contextualizing how much offensive production this roster lost overall compared to what he currently has. You don't need to get flippant about it because you think JJPs 41 assists are being ignored. What about Cozens atrocious defense? What about Clifton being off the roster and so far fewer giveaways? What about Doan being able to force Greenway down a line? What about Quinn being healthy? What about Norris being healthy or not? What about JJPs role in Buffalo playing with Tage Thompson versus his role in Utah? What about the goalies Buffalo faced and system they play. 

We know it is more complicated, but we started with goals and can move on to other things.

Start with points, or continue being wrong it’s honestly your call lol 

No one is ignoring all of the other context - listing it out doesn’t beef up your argument it simply belabours a nothing point 

Assists were not *mentioned* until i did so 

Edited 8 hours ago by Thorny

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

I mean, you are literally taking a larger conversation about production out of context and then turning into something it isn't. No one, and I mean NO ONE, believes you just say oh well we subtract 30JJP goals and add in 18 of these other goals and that's our total! because that would be stupid. It is contextualizing how much offensive production this roster lost overall compared to what he currently has. You don't need to get flippant about it because you think JJPs 41 assists are being ignored. What about Cozens atrocious defense? What about Clifton being off the roster and so far fewer giveaways? What about Doan being able to force Greenway down a line? What about Quinn being healthy? What about Norris being healthy or not? What about JJPs role in Buffalo playing with Tage Thompson versus his role in Utah? What about the goalies Buffalo faced and system they play. 

We know it is more complicated, but we started with goals and can move on to other things.

@Thornydisagree with this all you want but 23 of his 41 assists are 2nd assists. His primary assist rate is the same as Zach Benson's. I think Peterka will get 25+ goals in Utah but I don't think he gets 41assists. 

Yes and Quinn will have 80 points last year 

Or was that the year before? I always try to stick with your predictions as opposed to my demonstrably more accurate ones

Edited 8 hours ago by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Start with points, or continue being wrong it’s honestly your call lol 

No one is ignoring all of the other context - listing it out doesn’t beef up your argument it simply belabours a nothing point 

Assists were not *mentioned* until i did so 

This is obnoxious. And this is flat out bull hockey. I've mentioned jjp and his 2nd assists multiple times. 

You have no counter argument other than points. It's surface level. 

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yes and Quinn will have 80 points last year 

Or was that the year before? I always try to stick with your predictions as opposed to my demonstrably more accurate ones

You've really gone downhill as a poster the last couple years. Just always with this tone. And you don't need it, you could just make your point but it's always this "I'm right and you're too dumb" sort of response. 

I've been more right than wrong over the years though. 

Edited 7 hours ago by LGR4GM

[Archie Lee]

The Sabres could be better next year than they were this past year, for many reasons. It’s not likely they will be better because they got rid of Peterka. 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

The Sabres could be better next year than they were this past year, for many reasons. It’s not likely they will be better because they got rid of Peterka. 

Very possible. 

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This is obnoxious. And this is flat out bull hockey. I've mentioned jjp and his 2nd assists multiple times. 

You have no counter argument other than points. It's surface level. 

You've really gone downhill as a poster the last couple years. Just always with this tone. And you don't need it, you could just make your point but it's always this "I'm right and you're too dumb" sort of response. 

I've been more right than wrong over the years though. 

A) I’m as right as ever, frankly I’m more right than ever, can’t remember the last thing I missed, b) I think that’s what leads to the tone. Yokels like you disagreeing because you have a complex. You argue against Adams philosophies any time but unless it’s me on the other end.

ive got your number 

have you been more right than wrong? Your predictions from last year are almost laughably bad, if that’s any indication 

On 10/4/2024 at 10:06 AM, LGR4GM said:

1) Sabres point total? - 96

2) Will the Sabres makes the playoffs? - Yes

3) Sabres leading goal scorer? - Tage Thompson

4) Sabres leader in total points? - Tage Thompson

5) Sabres MVP? - UPL and Levi

6) Sabres ROY? - None or Kulich

7) Best off-season acquisition - Ryan McLeod

8.) Worst off-season acquisition? - Jason Zucker

9) Biggest surprise? (positive or negative) - Zach Benson (60pts+)

10) Breakout player? - Zach Benson

11) Will any Sabres players or coaches finish as finalists (win?) for any major awards such as the Norris or Selke? - Rasmus Dahlin (Norris)

12) Unsung Hero? - Jack Quinn

13) Who will be the first Sabre traded away this season? - Rosen

14) Will KA make any in-season acquisitions before the deadline? - Yes

15) Will the Sabres be buyers or sellers at the deadline? - Buyers but minimally 

16) Other Bold prediction? {Such as KA gets fired mid-season ;)} - Jack Quinn is 2nd in points

17) Any other thoughts? - the arena food is still piss poor for no reason other than uncaring laziness

 

😬

Hey congrats on calling Tage tho 

Edited 7 hours ago by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

A) I’m as right as ever, frankly I’m more right than ever, can’t remember the last thing I missed, b) I think that’s what leads to the tone. Yokels like you disagreeing because you have a complex. You argue against Adams philosophies any time but unless it’s me on the other end.

ive got your number 

have you been more right than wrong? Your predictions from last year are almost laughably bad, if that’s any indication 

 

😬

Hey congrats on calling Tage tho 

Yikes. I mean just a sad and pathetic response. 

As to my predictions, I'll always aim high on those, I'll do it again this year. Gotta hope for better cuz it's all we got. I do appreciate you pulling this "gotcha" though. Really nails home it's about clout chasing not discussing the team in any meaningful way. 

Edited 7 hours ago by LGR4GM
Spelling

[dudacek]

57 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It isn't more objective. You then start to ignore roles, toi, team structure. None of this is more objective. 

Also, I went into JJP assists. If you think Peterka is going to run at 1 secondary assist per 60mins again this year, fine but I will bet on that dropping without Tage or Tuch being on his line. Over half his assists are 2nd assists and those fluctuate. 41 assists! LOOK! yea but 23 of those were 2nd assists. 

One thing Peterka is elite at is rush offence and his departure is going to be felt because his skill set fit perfectly with the strength of our team, the backline transition skill.

The game Scenario I posted up thread illustrates it perfectly

There’s no way it doesn’t blunt Dahlin and Power’s breakout passing giving those passes to Doan instead of Peterka.

Similarly, there’s no way Tage doesn’t get fewer rush opportunities if it’s Doan feeding him.

Bht that works both ways: Ian Cole isn’t going to hit JJ in flight like Byram would and Nick Schmaltz isn’t going to bury pucks like Tage.

Edited 7 hours ago by dudacek

[dudacek]

The trade off is will Doan bury Tage rebounds, or feed him off the cycle the way JJ did not?

Will Samuelsson be able to be more assertive closing his gap because he doesn’t have to worry about JJ’s man being uncovered?

We all know we had to get better at prevention and that we’d likely have to sacrifice offence to do so.

Its what they’ve obviously tried to do.

[LGR4GM]

What's odd is I do think Thorny is right about a lot. Peterka leaving is an issue until they prove otherwise. 

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The trade off is will Doan bury Tage rebounds, or feed him off the cycle the way JJ did not?

Will Samuelsson be able to be more assertive closing his gap because he doesn’t have to worry about JJ’s man being uncovered?

We all know we had to get better at prevention and that we’d likely have to sacrifice offence to do so.

Its what they’ve obviously tried to do.

Yea, the question is execution. I still think goalie and coaching will be a massive issue. 

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The trade off is will Doan bury Tage rebounds, or feed him off the cycle the way JJ did not?

Will Samuelsson be able to be more assertive closing his gap because he doesn’t have to worry about JJ’s man being uncovered?

We all know we had to get better at prevention and that we’d likely have to sacrifice offence to do so.

Its what they’ve obviously tried to do.

No, I don’t think so. I think these are reasonable and workable conclusions you draw by analyzing the players, because you have an apt and more importantly eager hockey mind. They aren’t looking at it in this way, not that deeply. jj wasn’t being moved until he asked to - it wasn’t a plan, they didn’t have a plan, here. 

They will count on Sammy because they counted on him years ago to the tune of a huge deal when he hadn’t even established as an NHLer yet. The dye was cast long long ago you know that! “Will Sammy be better cause JJ no longer…” yadda yadda - no. Im not saying that dismissively but factually (at least in terms of what I actually think is happening). They aren’t thinking that deep lol. They already loved Sammy. They’ll count on Sammy because Adams has tied his wagon to Sammy. He formulated that plan after JJ asked out? Or, he knew of it before hand but just wasn’t going to do anything about it? Doesn’t make sense. 

The calculation was that Adams liked Kesselring - we do know that from reputable in the knows. Once it became apparent JJ had to be his big (and only) trade chip, he used him to get Kesselring. Doan is simply bPA on someone’s list - and it’s not a list that was put together with team building consideration 

you’ll find a way to make it make sense because you should be the GM 

If Adams was actually using similar team building considerations we’d have made the playoffs, but then Adams couldn’t have been Adams, at all 

- - - 

Adams is ridiculously one track minded 

his “thing” this summer was rhd

we even saw it at the draft. He’s a complete imbecile (general manager wise) - it’s not just something we say 

Edited 7 hours ago by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, I don’t think so. I think these are reasonable and workable conclusions you draw by analyzing the players, because you have an apt and more importantly eager hockey mind. They aren’t looking at it in this way, not that deeply. jj wasn’t being moved until he asked to - it wasn’t a plan, they didn’t have a plan, here. 

They will count on Sammy because they counted on him years ago to the tune of a huge deal when he hadn’t even established as an NHLer yet. The dye was cast long long ago you know that! “Will Sammy be better cause JJ no longer…” yadda yadda - no. Im not saying that dismissively but factually (at least in terms of what I actually think is happening). They aren’t thinking that deep lol. They already loved Sammy. They’ll count on Sammy because Adams has tied his wagon to Sammy. He formulated that plan after JJ asked out? Or, he knew of it before hand but just wasn’t going to do anything about it? Doesn’t make sense. 

The calculation was that Adams liked Kesselring - we do know that from reputable in the knows. Once it became apparent JJ had to be his big (and only) trade chip, he used him to get Kesselring. Doan is simply bPA on someone’s list - and it’s not a list that was put together with team building consideration 

you’ll find a way to make it make sense because you should be the GM 

Other than Peterka, the Sabres sent guys with bad xgf% out. They brought in almost exclusively guys with good xgf%.

Will it work? Idk, probably not because gt and coaching are trash.

To the bolded, what's even the point of this nonsense? 

Just now, Thorny said:

Adams is ridiculously one track minded 

his “thing” this summer was rhd

we even saw it at the draft. He’s a complete imbecile (general manager wise) - it’s not just something we say 

We all know Adams is incompetent. 

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Other than Peterka, the Sabres sent guys with bad xgf% out. They brought in almost exclusively guys with good xgf%.

Will it work? Idk, probably not because gt and coaching are trash.

To the bolded, what's even the point of this nonsense? 

We all know Adams is incompetent. 

How is it nonsense? Tone can be hard in writing but you frequently off the mark by a mile with me: it could be me - I don’t know. But that doesn’t mean it’s not off the mark

 I meant it literally. If Adams was actually building by the principles dudacek is outlining we’d be a playoff team 

i don’t think enough give credence to the idea that there can be viable reasons for something to work without those things ever having been the focal point, or even potentially something they were necessarily aware of 

and how is that a nonsense point? If they aren’t actually making the decisions FOR the right reasons what chance do we think they have of replication??

if Adams had the eye dudacek has, we wouldn’t be seeing such a lack of the types of moves dudacek outlined the benefits of 

Edited 6 hours ago by Thorny

[Thorny]

What part of historical ineptitude don’t people get? That’s the friggen oxymoron irony here, you say I endlessly belabour the Adams point and yet it NEVER HAS TAKEN HOLD yet lmao

He is *historically* bad.
 

i’m not using the words for emphasis. It’s embarrassing.

We are catastrophically, unusually bad and when I say dudacek would make a better GM that’s not snark it’s a notion I hope gains traction 

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What's odd is I do think Thorny is right about a lot. Peterka leaving is an issue until they prove otherwise. 

Yea, the question is execution. I still think goalie and coaching will be a massive issue. 

If I had a nickel 

Edited 7 hours ago by Thorny

[Weave]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

If I had a nickel 

Thorny the Nickleaire

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Thorny the Nickleaire

This is how, you remind meee, of what I really am…

It's not like you, to say sorry, I was wait- wait what 

[LGR4GM]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

What part of historical ineptitude don’t people get? That’s the friggen oxymoron irony here, you say I endlessly belabour the Adams point and yet it NEVER HAS TAKEN HOLD yet lmao

He is *historically* bad.
 

i’m not using the words for emphasis. It’s embarrassing.

We are catastrophically, unusually bad and when I say dudacek would make a better GM that’s not snark it’s a notion I hope gains traction 

If I had a nickel 

 You got me there. I'll never recover from that burn 🔥. 

 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 You got me there. I'll never recover from that burn 🔥. 

 

lol clockwork re: my tone thing

How on earth do you read that as an attempt at a burn? I was saying I’m frequently invoked along with “odd”

In other words, a joke. About myself 

 But by all means continue your streak of erroneously quoting me*

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Thorny
*jooooooooke

[LGR4GM]

Thorny you ever watch dbz abridged? Cuz you're Vegeta and that's not meant as an insult. 

 

 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

JJP and 2nd assists: 

2022: 7

2023: 12

2024: 23

JJP and 1st assists:

2022: 13

2023: 10

2024: 18

And Kesselring 16 primary, 6 secondary assists

Doan 8primary, 4 secondary assists

and neither player was given the ice time all year or the linemates Peterka got. 

No offense, but these sort of stats comparing a D man to a forward are totally meaningless. 

The meaningful stat next season will be does Power get more points playing with Kesselring and do the two of them prevent more goals as well. 

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

The trade off is will Doan bury Tage rebounds, or feed him off the cycle the way JJ did not?

Will Samuelsson be able to be more assertive closing his gap because he doesn’t have to worry about JJ’s man being uncovered?

We all know we had to get better at prevention and that we’d likely have to sacrifice offence to do so.

Its what they’ve obviously tried to do.

You seriously have Doan in a top 6 role? I must be missing something on him. He's not his dad you know.  How is he anything more than a bottom 6 guy?

[7+6=13]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think Norris will play more than half the season but maybe I'm just too pessimistic. Peterka on the other hand I think will have a great year as that Mammoth top 6 looks like a really solid group that should fit together nicely. You never know though. He could sit back and just enjoy his new contract.

Half a year is a pretty tough prediction and definitely is pessimistic.  Even if half a year happens, you don't think he'll score any goals?

[dudacek]

38 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

You seriously have Doan in a top 6 role? I must be missing something on him. He's not his dad you know.  How is he anything more than a bottom 6 guy?

The Tage thing was more for sake of discussion than literal.

That said, I’m not really a “top six” kinda guy when it comes to lines.

I think Doan is skilled enough to be the grinder on a skill line if needed.

Forgive me if you’ve read this before:

• Kulich AHL 123 53/41/94
• Doan AHL 104 40/38/78
• Kulich NHL 63 15/9/24
• Doan NHL 62 12/16/28

Kulich was the 28th pick in the 2022 draft, Doan the 37th a year earlier.

The popular wisdom that Kulich is way ahead of Doan isn’t reality. They’re at similar levels in their development.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

The Tage thing was more for sake of discussion than literal.

That said, I’m not really a “top six” kinda guy when it comes to lines.

I think Doan is skilled enough to be the grinder on a skill line if needed.

Forgive me if you’ve read this before:

• Kulich AHL 123 53/41/94
• Doan AHL 104 40/38/78
• Kulich NHL 63 15/9/24
• Doan NHL 62 12/16/28

Kulich was the 28th pick in the 2022 draft, Doan the 37th a year earlier.

The popular wisdom that Kulich is way ahead of Doan isn’t reality. They’re at similar levels in their development.

Hmm. Now there's an interesting question. Are Kulich and Doan at a similar point in their development?

Only thing I'll add now is Doan is 2yrs older than Kulich. April 04 v. February 02.