Where would be now ?

[Crusader1969]

Imagine an alternative world where the 2019-20 Sabres have competent ownership,  management and coaching

The core 4 ( if you will) would be Tage, Eichel, Samson and Dahlin. 

.where would stand now?

a) same - the drought would still continue 

b) wildcard contenders. - would have made the playoffs once or twice but never really a threat

c) solid playoff team - consistently making playoffs but never really a cup contender (similar to the Leafs)

d) would be in a group of 4 or 5 teams that are legit cup contenders 

Just to remind us all, other players on that  roster

Mitts, Mcabe, Montour, Skinner, Ullmark, Risto and ERod 

Cozens, JJP and Quinn were in the system 

there are still lots of holes to be plugged   But let's assume MGMT did a decent job of filling in the rest of the roster but the stars were the core 4 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crusader1969]

How did this  become

 

this? 

[Scottysabres]

Both Eckel and Reinhart are great players, but the difference between their failures in Buffalo and successes after Buffalo are directly related to their surrounding cast. Florida and Las Vegas built winning rosters, winning coaching and winning management. It is what it is.

[Crusader1969]

16 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Both Eckel and Reinhart are great players, but the difference between their failures in Buffalo and successes after Buffalo are directly related to their surrounding cast. Florida and Las Vegas built winning rosters, winning coaching and winning management. It is what it is.

that's why I specifically said " let's Assume the Sabres had competent ownership, mgmt and coaching.

Or are you saying it would have been impossible for them to get to the level of players they've become if they stayed in Buffalo?   If that's the case how do you explain Tage's progress and  Dahlin becoming one of the top defenders in the league 

Not to mention both Sam and Jack were pretty good as Sabres and neither had hit their "prime" before being traded away 

 

 

[Weave]

Competent ownership means “the extent of the rebuild” would not have been a tear it down to nothing effort. Who knows if we even draft Sam and Eichel at that point?

The team wouldn’t look like you think it would.  Everything would be very different.

[Night Train]

We're a farm team. Denial just makes it worse. 

" See the future winners while they're here !  Buy your tickets today ! " 

[Demoted]

33 minutes ago, Night Train said:

We're a farm team. Denial just makes it worse. 

" See the future winners while they're here !  Buy your tickets today ! " 

Best damn farm team in the NHL!

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

Competent ownership means “the extent of the rebuild” would not have been a tear it down to nothing effort. Who knows if we even draft Sam and Eichel at that point?

The team wouldn’t look like you think it would.  Everything would be very different.

The strategy to rebuild or not and to what extent is not what has strangled this franchise. Even if there was no complete tear down strategy but rather build on what you already got, a competently managed franchise would today have a relevant and competitive team. The owner hired an ill-equipped person to be his GM, a person no other owner/franchise would have considered for the position. After five years at the helm, we are not much farther than when we started. This mediocre fellow is still at the helm. Again, no franchise would have retained a GM with such a record. That's not the case for this bedraggled franchise. 

What's the hope now? It's that the senior advisor brought in will help buck up the GM that has driven this franchise into a ditch. That's not how a normally run NHL franchise functions. And the beat goes on and on. Imprisoned by one's own generational foolishness. 

[Archie Lee]

7 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

that's why I specifically said " let's Assume the Sabres had competent ownership, mgmt and coaching.

Or are you saying it would have been impossible for them to get to the level of players they've become if they stayed in Buffalo?   If that's the case how do you explain Tage's progress and  Dahlin becoming one of the top defenders in the league 

Not to mention both Sam and Jack were pretty good as Sabres and neither had hit their "prime" before being traded away 

 

 

Competent ownership and management and coaching are the issues. 

It is not hard for me to imagine Thompson scoring 50 and being an offensive juggernaut, and a physical menace (not in the Bennett sense),  playing on the first line of a cup winning team. Likewise, I could easily see Dahlin having a Conn Smythe level playoff performance for a cup winner. I can’t see it happening here. Not with this regime in charge. 

The big question at this point, in my view, is do Adams and Ruff get fired before Thompson or Dahlin demand a trade?

Edited 6 hours ago by Archie Lee

[JohnC]

21 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Competent ownership and management and coaching are the issues. 

It is not hard for me to imagine Thompson scoring 50 and being an offensive juggernaut, and a physical menace (not in the Bennett sense),  playing on the first line of a cup winning team. Likewise, I could easily see Dahlin having a Conn Smythe level playoff performance for a cup winner. I can’t see it happening here. Not with this regime in charge. 

The big question at this point, in my view, is do Adams and Ruff get fired before Thompson or Dahlin demand a trade?

The player to watch regarding player frustrations and internal frustrations is Tuch. If he shows little interest in signing a new contract in the not-too-distant future, then it will spell another roster setback that continues the exasperating process of filling another hole that previously didn't exist. Will the Ullmark scenario play out again?

The SC playoffs have concluded and the draft is soon. So we should soon know what this front office is up to with this roster. It's going to be interesting. 

[JP51]

The key is competent FO and ownership... if we had that we likely dont even have some of those players... but suffice it to say if we had that we would be a whole lot better than 14 years out of the playoffs where we have had 2 1st over all picks and 2 2nd overall picks... and drafted in the top 10 pretty much every year for 14 years... We would be able to attract free agents, wouldnt be burdened by stupid contracts etc .... 

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

that's why I specifically said " let's Assume the Sabres had competent ownership, mgmt and coaching.

Or are you saying it would have been impossible for them to get to the level of players they've become if they stayed in Buffalo?   If that's the case how do you explain Tage's progress and  Dahlin becoming one of the top defenders in the league 

Not to mention both Sam and Jack were pretty good as Sabres and neither had hit their "prime" before being traded away 

 

 

That’s the biggest thing. People will talk about development until the cows come home and neglect to mention we traded Eichel at 24 - he wasn’t close to being in orbit in fact he was just launching his prime. People will ask “how didn’t you win with Jack Sam and ROR?” when non-ELC Jack and Sam never played with him 

Anyways, I’ll say C

Should be noted: the leafs were the second best team this year. Only one team gave Florida a true test 

Edited 5 hours ago by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Competent ownership means “the extent of the rebuild” would not have been a tear it down to nothing effort. Who knows if we even draft Sam and Eichel at that point?

The team wouldn’t look like you think it would.  Everything would be very different.

When you have a core of Eichel; Tage, Reinhart and Dahlin the tank worked to perfection 

unfortunately they couldn't figure out the 2nd part and that's how to rebuild out of it    

 

 

[Mr. Allen]

Y’all notice Jacks neck has never been an issue since leaving Buffalo? 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Archie Lee said:

Competent ownership and management and coaching are the issues. 

It is not hard for me to imagine Thompson scoring 50 and being an offensive juggernaut, and a physical menace (not in the Bennett sense),  playing on the first line of a cup winning team. Likewise, I could easily see Dahlin having a Conn Smythe level playoff performance for a cup winner. I can’t see it happening here. Not with this regime in charge. 

The big question at this point, in my view, is do Adams and Ruff get fired before Thompson or Dahlin demand a trade?

You can envision Tage being a physical menace?  

[Archie Lee]

42 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The player to watch regarding player frustrations and internal frustrations is Tuch. If he shows little interest in signing a new contract in the not-too-distant future, then it will spell another roster setback that continues the exasperating process of filling another hole that previously didn't exist. Will the Ullmark scenario play out again?

The SC playoffs have concluded and the draft is soon. So we should soon know what this front office is up to with this roster. It's going to be interesting. 

My best guess on Tuch is that they will keep him until the deadline.  At that point, if the season is going well and we are in contention, they will hold on to him through the season with the hope that the improved team performance entices him to stay (assuming he has not already re-signed).  If things go as they typically do and we are out of it by the deadline, then it will be clear he is not coming back and he will be traded (hopefully by a new GM). 

[Archie Lee]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

You can envision Tage being a physical menace?  

Absolutely.  Not a dirt bag like Bennett, Marchand, Tkachuk.  But a guy who will use his size to go to dirty places and who will stick up for teammates and who will punish d-men on the forecheck. On a contending team, he will have teammates who will drag him into that level of play and the stakes will demand it.  I've seen him do it at times. 

[St. Pete Gogolak]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

Competent ownership means “the extent of the rebuild” would not have been a tear it down to nothing effort. Who knows if we even draft Sam and Eichel at that point?

The team wouldn’t look like you think it would.  Everything would be very different.

I think you’re missing the point of the post. All of those players were on the team or in the system in 19-20.  That’s a great core and at least some supporting talent (Ullmark’s much better than anything that has followed).  I think even with INCOMPETENT management and coaching, you keep that team together and at a minimum, it’s a consistent playoff team.

[Weave]

38 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

When you have a core of Eichel; Tage, Reinhart and Dahlin the tank worked to perfection 

unfortunately they couldn't figure out the 2nd part and that's how to rebuild out of it    

 

 

Competence would have prevented us from being near enough to the bottom to ever have a sniff at Dahlin.

[Weave]

9 minutes ago, St. Pete Gogolak said:

I think you’re missing the point of the post. All of those players were on the team or in the system in 19-20.  That’s a great core and at least some supporting talent (Ullmark’s much better than anything that has followed).  I think even with INCOMPETENT management and coaching, you keep that team together and at a minimum, it’s a consistent playoff team.

I think you are missing the point of my post.  The assumption that we had competent ownership means the decision to tear down to nothing doesn’t get made and likely a team like Arizona finishes dead last instead, and oor rebuild core does not contain Sam or Jack.

[DarthEbriate]

24 minutes ago, St. Pete Gogolak said:

I think you’re missing the point of the post. All of those players were on the team or in the system in 19-20.  That’s a great core and at least some supporting talent (Ullmark’s much better than anything that has followed).  I think even with INCOMPETENT management and coaching, you keep that team together and at a minimum, it’s a consistent playoff team.

Maybe even inconsistently a playoff team at this point (their division is stacked), but still at least a threat. 

A competent GM and owner who aren't anxious to dole out 1-year or 2-year deals to their best futures (Reinhart, Ullmark) while dishing out big term/salary to unproven (Samuelsson) and nice, but not core pieces (Skinner) could easily have walked into the 2022-2023 season (missed the playoffs by 1 point) with Granato as head coach and Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, and Ullmark on the roster. Toss in a trade (let's say a 1st + prospect + something for then-third-liner Alex Tuch so he could blossom in the top 6 on your team), and you'd still be cap compliant and ready to go. You might not be able to pay Skinner 9... but he'd probably have taken a lot less to stick around with a real GM.

Now... when you get to the playoffs, your run-and-gun is going to get destroyed, but you can start tweaking from there because you have your core and they know they're on the ascent. UFAs join those teams. NMCs get waived for, and NTCs don't list, those teams.

Edited 5 hours ago by DarthEbriate

[Jorcus]

10 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Imagine an alternative world where the 2019-20 Sabres have competent ownership,  management and coaching

The core 4 ( if you will) would be Tage, Eichel, Samson and Dahlin. 

.where would stand now?

a) same - the drought would still continue 

b) wildcard contenders. - would have made the playoffs once or twice but never really a threat

c) solid playoff team - consistently making playoffs but never really a cup contender (similar to the Leafs)

d) would be in a group of 4 or 5 teams that are legit cup contenders 

Just to remind us all, other players on that  roster

Mitts, Mcabe, Montour, Skinner, Ullmark, Risto and ERod 

Cozens, JJP and Quinn were in the system 

there are still lots of holes to be plugged   But let's assume MGMT did a decent job of filling in the rest of the roster but the stars were the core 4 

 

 

 

 

 

Given the players you listed as the core 4 that would be starting the year after trading Ryan O'reily trade following the most disappointing season of the whole drought era. The 2 years after that were not much better. Thompson and Dahlin really did not produce at a high level until Granato took over. Think of the patience we would need to have had for that team to come to fruition. Maybe 4 more years. As others have posted most of the upswing was age related. 3 out the 4 of those players started in the NHL very young. If we waited sure we would be a good team, Maybe a great team, but I feel were almost at the same point now as we were then talent wise. I think this can be a very good team with a few up grades.    

[inkman]

56 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Absolutely.  Not a dirt bag like Bennett, Marchand, Tkachuk.  But a guy who will use his size to go to dirty places and who will stick up for teammates and who will punish d-men on the forecheck. On a contending team, he will have teammates who will drag him into that level of play and the stakes will demand it.  I've seen him do it at times. 

Well we need to get the dirt bags quite frankly.  That’s why JJ, Quinn, Muel, Power can all find new homes with their replacements being slightly less talented but 1000 times scummier and dirty.  We need the guys you mentioned or someone akin to them.  
 

It should have been done with drafting. It’s not hard to find a kid with daddy issues ready to extol his problems onto some chumps face.  Instead we get draft picks like Karabacek or Kisakov.  Stop trying to find the next Kucherov and starting banking on one of the multitudes of dirtbags you drafted to pan out and become Marchand.  
 

Helenius is a nice start.  Some of the later round guys the last couple of years could turn into what they need but they need them now. Give Bennet or Marchand $10 mill per.  

[dudacek]

Agree they may have been Dahlin-less.

But a world where Bill Zito inherited Eichel, Reinhart, O'Reilly, Kane, Bogosian, Lehner, Okposo, Ristolainen, McCabe and Ullmark and didn't hire Phil Housley would have been interesting.

[Scottysabres]

9 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

that's why I specifically said " let's Assume the Sabres had competent ownership, mgmt and coaching.

Or are you saying it would have been impossible for them to get to the level of players they've become if they stayed in Buffalo?   If that's the case how do you explain Tage's progress and  Dahlin becoming one of the top defenders in the league 

Not to mention both Sam and Jack were pretty good as Sabres and neither had hit their "prime" before being traded away 

 

 

I think both Florida and Vegas got players entering their prime, and not just any players, but a couple of superstars in their own right.

ive said it for a while now, but Buffalo has become a development farm team. That’s jus factually proven now.