The Sabres should trade the 11th overall pick in the 2024 draft

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

Gabe Kaplan, the actor and one of the creators of the show, became a professional poker player. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=actor+gabe+kaplan+vegas+gambler&oq=actor+gabe+kaplan+vegas+gambler&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l4.13426j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

 

[French Collection]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

It’s just a funny distinction I wanted to raise because as of now, I’d rather have Jack’s career than Connor’s. We’ll see on the oilers this year tho

Interesting thought.

You hear players say all of the time they would trade personal awards for a Cup. You won’t find any person who would trade McJesus for Eichel yet Jack has something Connor may never get.

The Cup is worth a lot of votes as well when the time comes to determine who joins the HHOF.

McDavid is still generational.

[Thorny]

47 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Interesting thought.

You hear players say all of the time they would trade personal awards for a Cup. You won’t find any person who would trade McJesus for Eichel yet Jack has something Connor may never get.

The Cup is worth a lot of votes as well when the time comes to determine who joins the HHOF.

McDavid is still generational.

McDavid has probably played the game better than anyone ever. Not relatively (Gretzky) but just in terms of raw performance and aptitude 

Edited May 12 by Thorny

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

McDavid has probably played the game better than anyone ever. Not relatively (Gretzky) but just in terms of raw performance and aptitude 

He might be the best skater ever. Someone might come around and have better speed, edge work etc… but he can do so much at top speed.

The old argument about best of an era will always be there but like all sports today’s athletes are better. Higher, faster, stronger.

I like to think about dropping, Orr, Lemieux, Howe and Gretzky in today’s game having access to training, equipment, technology, nutrition, medical and psychological support that McDavid has.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, French Collection said:

He might be the best skater ever. Someone might come around and have better speed, edge work etc… but he can do so much at top speed.

The old argument about best of an era will always be there but like all sports today’s athletes are better. Higher, faster, stronger.

I like to think about dropping, Orr, Lemieux, Howe and Gretzky in today’s game having access to training, equipment, technology, nutrition, medical and psychological support that McDavid has.

Ya it definitely works both ways. You can’t just time travel McDavid backwards and you’d need to give Gretzky the advantages of today. You can only measure true greatness relatively - still Wayne for me easily.

But like, if you DID time travel McDavid backwards as is, he would annihilate everyone, every night. Some people don’t get that. And no, he wouldn’t get “clocked”. If he can avoid collisions at the speed of today, he can dodge pylons in 1970. Regardless of if said pylon personally doesn’t like it and wants to dish out damage 

Jim Brown would be an average sized back today. Olympic records are reset every 4 years. Athletes are bigger strong faster it’s just true 

Edited May 12 by Thorny

[French Collection]

Pylons!

[PerreaultForever]

I'm curious but what/who do people think we can get for this 11th pick? Which team(s) do you think have what we need and would want this pick in exchange?

[French Collection]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm curious but what/who do people think we can get for this 11th pick? Which team(s) do you think have what we need and would want this pick in exchange?

A team who had Cup dreams and are done may be interested.

Pittsburgh or Washington come to mind. Washington will probably let Ovie pursue Gretzky but undergo a rebuild at the same time.

Crosby still has game but he needs to realize the others are almost done.

There are probably a few teams that will do rebuild on the fly. LA is another team.

I’m not sure what players will be made available.

I also think some teams would want other pieces added to #11 like a prospect who is almost ready. #11 on its own probably doesn’t get a solid 2-3C like Cirelli but might be enough to get Laughton.

[PerreaultForever]

The only one I can up with myself (possibly) is Scott Laughton. The Flyers are rebuild/compete, can't quite figure out which or trying to do both and his name was mentioned as available last year.  2way 3C. They might not want to make that deal any more. 

[SabreFinn]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

The only one I can up with myself (possibly) is Scott Laughton. The Flyers are rebuild/compete, can't quite figure out which or trying to do both and his name was mentioned as available last year.  2way 3C. They might not want to make that deal any more. 

Yes, Laughton might be the best we could get. I think the first is worth much more than one year of Dowd or Bjugstad. If we would trade the 1st alone for one player I think a Rfa like Kakko could be possible, but he is not a center. But most likely it has to be as part of a bigger package.

[L Ron Burgundy]

16 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

No idea. No one has traded out of 1 in the cap era.

We have an absurd amount of assets.  #1, Savoie, + a couple other pieces would HAVE to tempt SJ.  I'd love to see a shake-up like this though I realize the likelihood is almost nill.

[Archie Lee]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The only one I can up with myself (possibly) is Scott Laughton. The Flyers are rebuild/compete, can't quite figure out which or trying to do both and his name was mentioned as available last year.  2way 3C. They might not want to make that deal any more. 

Are you suggesting we trade #11 for Laughton?  Or that he is the quality of player we could get for #11?  

I would hope we could do better than that.  I would prefer to give Laughton's $3 million salary to Teddy Blueger or Kevin Stenlund in free agency and keep the pick.

 

 

[Archie Lee]

I looked back at the last decade for trades that fit our current scenario (trading a top 15 pick from this year's draft, after the season and prior to or at the draft).  I excluded from the list:

• trades that occurred prior to the end of the year where the pick occurred
• trades related to an expansion draft
• trades where more than one first was traded such as the Seth Jones trade
• the Vancouver / Arizona trade from 2021, which had as much or more to do with cap space as the players involved (if you want to include it, Van did get Connor Garland and Oliver Ekman-Larsson in that deal)

Here is the list:

1. 2015 LA traded #13 (Zboril) to Boston along with Martin Jones and Colin Miller for Milan Lucic
2. 2015 Cal traded #15 (Senyshyn) and two 2nd rd picks to Boston for Dougie Hamilton 
3. 2017 Ari trades #7 (Lias Andersson) and Tony DeAngelo to NYR for Derek Stepan and Antti Raanta
4. 2020 Pit trades #15  (Amirov) and Evan Rodriguez (and 2 prospects) to Tor for Kaspari Kapanen (and 2 prospects)
5. 2021 Phi trades #14 (Rosen) and a 2nd and Robert Hagg to Buf for Rasmus Ristolainen
6. 2022 Ott trades #7 (Korchinski) and a 2nd and a 3rd for Alex Debrincat
7. 2022 NYI trade #13 (Nazar) to Mtl for Alexander Romanov and a 4th rd pick
8. 2022 Mtl then trades the above pick (Nazar) and a 3rd to Chicago for Kirby Dach

With the benefit of hindsight, only two of the acquired players would be in the category of worth getting excited about, those being Hamilton and Debrincat (add Garland if you want to include that trade).  Hamilton had 3 good years in Calgary and then returned Lindholm in a trade with Carolina.  We know how the Debrincat situation turned out. LA fans were no doubt excited about Lucic in the moment, but they (fortunately for them) lost him as a UFA a year later.

Also, the players drafted either did not take the league by storm (sadly, Amirov has since passed away), or are still in development.  

Not sure what this all means, except that perhaps (on balance) it isn't likely that trading #11 would turn into a franchise altering move one way or the other.

Edited May 12 by Archie Lee

[JohnC]

30 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I looked back at the last decade for trades that fit our current scenario (trading a top 15 pick from this year's draft, after the season and prior to or at the draft).  I excluded from the list:

• trades that occurred prior to the end of the year where the pick occurred
• trades related to an expansion draft
• trades where more than one first was traded such as the Seth Jones trade
• the Vancouver / Arizona trade from 2021, which had as much or more to do with cap space as the players involved (if you want to include it, Van did get Connor Garland and Oliver Ekman-Larsson in that deal)

Here is the list:

1. 2015 LA traded #13 (Zboril) to Boston along with Martin Jones and Colin Miller for Milan Lucic
2. 2015 Cal traded #15 (Senyshyn) and two 2nd rd picks to Boston for Dougie Hamilton 
3. 2017 Ari trades #7 (Lias Andersson) and Tony DeAngelo to NYR for Derek Stepan and Antti Raanta
4. 2020 Pit trades #15  (Amirov) and Evan Rodriguez (and 2 prospects) to Tor for Kaspari Kapanen (and 2 prospects)
5. 2021 Phi trades #14 (Rosen) and a 2nd and Robert Hagg to Buf for Rasmus Ristolainen
6. 2022 Ott trades #7 (Korchinski) and a 2nd and a 3rd for Alex Debrincat
7. 2022 NYI trade #13 (Nazar) to Mtl for Alexander Romanov and a 4th rd pick
8. 2022 Mtl then trades the above pick (Nazar) and a 3rd to Chicago for Kirby Dach

With the benefit of hindsight, only two of the acquired players would be in the category of worth getting excited about, those being Hamilton and Debrincat (add Garland if you want to include that trade).  Hamilton had 3 good years in Calgary and then returned Lindholm in a trade with Carolina.  We know how the Debrincat situation turned out. LA fans were no doubt excited about Lucic in the moment, but they (fortunately for them) lost him as a UFA a year later.

Also, the players drafted either did not take the league by storm (sadly, Amirov has since passed away), or are still in development.  

Not sure what this all means, except that perhaps (on balance) it isn't likely that trading #11 would turn into a franchise altering move one way or the other.

I'm not looking for a smashing singular deal that will alter the course of this flailing franchise. That's an unrealistic expectation. What I'm looking for are a few deals/transactions that cumulatively make this team better. Most of the roster spots are already designated. The hope is that there will be internal improvement from players already on the roster supported by an upgraded bottom half of the roster that will better balance out this roster i.e. make it a tougher team to play. There is an assumption/hope that these cumulative moves will be augmented with better coaching. I doubt that there is going to be an eye-popping deal that is going to dramatically alter the course of this team.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I'm not looking for a smashing singular deal that will alter the course of this flailing franchise. That's an unrealistic expectation. What I'm looking for are a few deals/transactions that cumulatively make this team better. Most of the roster spots are already designated. The hope is that there will be internal improvement from players already on the roster supported by an upgraded bottom half of the roster that will better balance out this roster i.e. make it a tougher team to play. There is an assumption/hope that these cumulative moves will be augmented with better coaching. I doubt that there is going to be an eye-popping deal that is going to dramatically alter the course of this team.

It’s really about being able to win the matchup on the ice at any given time.

The more players you have who are above average in their slot, the better your chances of winning.

I look at the rough math.

With 6 players on the ice and your best forward playing 20 minutes a game, he’s what 6% of the total puzzle?

Compare that to basketball where the top guy is up over 15%

Every improvement matters, but in hockey, improving multiple roster slots a little should have much more impact than adding any single impact player. The Canucks jumped because they made external adds that improved them a bit in multiple spots, and so many of their returning players upped their game at the same time.

The Sabres need to do something similar.

Edited May 12 by dudacek

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Are you suggesting we trade #11 for Laughton?  Or that he is the quality of player we could get for #11?  

I would hope we could do better than that.  I would prefer to give Laughton's $3 million salary to Teddy Blueger or Kevin Stenlund in free agency and keep the pick.

 

 

I'm suggesting that he's a potential player that MIGHT be available on a team that MIGHT be enticed by a draft pick. The thread is a hypothetical idea but I didn't see anybody making a viable suggestion so I asked the question. 

Is Laughton a first round pick in value? No, but it might take a first round pick to pry him away from his team. Added to the Sabres current roster we instantly become a better team as Krebs can be 4C where he belongs (if in the NHL at all). 

So I ask you, trade the pick so for who? Who would want to make that deal and who will give you what you want for it? Who?

I'd offer that pick to Boston for Trent Frederic but I very much doubt Boston would be interested. 

[Archie Lee]

19 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm suggesting that he's a potential player that MIGHT be available on a team that MIGHT be enticed by a draft pick. The thread is a hypothetical idea but I didn't see anybody making a viable suggestion so I asked the question. 

Is Laughton a first round pick in value? No, but it might take a first round pick to pry him away from his team. Added to the Sabres current roster we instantly become a better team as Krebs can be 4C where he belongs (if in the NHL at all). 

So I ask you, trade the pick so for who? Who would want to make that deal and who will give you what you want for it? Who?

I'd offer that pick to Boston for Trent Frederic but I very much doubt Boston would be interested. 

I could be wrong, but I think Laughton is a guy who maybe gets a late 1st or early 2nd, but I don’t think he is worth #11. As for who the Sabres could move the pick for, I really don’t know. It’s hard to come up with a good one for one (pick for player) example.

A lot of the ideas I come up with, seem that they might be laughable to some. Would Calgary do Andersson and Kadri (with say a $1 million retention) for Joker, Krebs and #11? Maybe we need to add something else?  We would need to buyout Skinner to make it work. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I could be wrong, but I think Laughton is a guy who maybe gets a late 1st or early 2nd, but I don’t think he is worth #11. As for who the Sabres could move the pick for, I really don’t know. It’s hard to come up with a good one for one (pick for player) example.

See, it's not easy is it? The hypothetical "Sabres should" argument is easy. A concrete actual possibility is much harder. Is Laughton really worth a low first or a second, quite possibly, but a higher first might actually get him on your team. 

6 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

A lot of the ideas I come up with, seem that they might be laughable to some. Would Calgary do Andersson and Kadri (with say a $1 million retention) for Joker, Krebs and #11? Maybe we need to add something else?  We would need to buyout Skinner to make it work. 

No offense, but that's just ridiculous. Fans are always coming up with these ideas where we toss away what we don't want and get quality players back. It's just not happening. Adams is not going to "win" these trades if he actually wants to make this team better now, but losing these trades and making this team win is a net win. 

It's time for action. (Getting rid of Skinner would be a good start)

[Archie Lee]

8 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

See, it's not easy is it? The hypothetical "Sabres should" argument is easy. A concrete actual possibility is much harder. Is Laughton really worth a low first or a second, quite possibly, but a higher first might actually get him on your team. 

No offense, but that's just ridiculous. Fans are always coming up with these ideas where we toss away what we don't want and get quality players back. It's just not happening. Adams is not going to "win" these trades if he actually wants to make this team better now, but losing these trades and making this team win is a net win. 

It's time for action. (Getting rid of Skinner would be a good start)

None taken. But you are not speaking for me when you conclude that Krebs, Joker and #11 (+) are unwanted. 

[SabreFinn]

This was an interesting question. After some more thinking I have a couple of suggestions: Nicolas Roy from Vegas. They are tight against the cap and Roy has signed for three more years att 3milj.

Jesperi Kotkaniemi is the other. Signed long-term at a reasonable price. Can play the game with some grit. Has been a dissapointment in Canes and is a risk but we could definitely get him for #11.

[Brawndo]

I do not believe the Sabres are still interested in Laughton. There was some interest last Summer but that has disappeared supposedly 

[JohnC]

I'm open to trading our first pick and other prospect assets. But if the Sabres were to do that, I would expect the return to be a player who is a second-line talent who would immediately help us. A player could be a second-line talent yet play on the third line and move up when needed, as Mitts did. 

The Sabres traded an extra second round pick to acquire Greenway. In my view, a few of those type of deals that bolsters the lower lines would make this team more balanced and in general better. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

None taken. But you are not speaking for me when you conclude that Krebs, Joker and #11 (+) are unwanted. 

It's not that they would be totally unwanted, but you through Kadri in there and he's way above that. You want Kadri you're going to have to throw 2 1sts and more in the package. 

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's not that they would be totally unwanted, but you through Kadri in there and he's way above that. You want Kadri you're going to have to throw 2 1sts and more in the package. 

A year ago, when it first looked like the Flames were possibly headed to a rebuild, people were wondering if a 33 year old Kadri with 6 years left at $7 million per, could be moved. He had a bounce back year, but I’m not sure his trade value is what you think it is.  He has a full NMC though, so the point is likely moot anyway.