Serious question now that the offseason dust has settled: would you rather go into the 3rd-last game of next season with ...

[LastPommerFan]

Good question.

 

I would trade Stafford at the deadline, and I don't care what kind of season he has. I'm not giving him an extension -- I know how that story plays out.

 

I'm open to giving Stewart an extension if he's crushing it this year. If there is no extension in place at the deadline, though, I would trade him too.

 

I'm skeptical as to the deadline value of Enroth, Neuvirth, Mitchell and Meszaros. If any of them would return a 2nd-rounder, though -- off they go.

 

Bottom line is that I'm fine with trading any of these guys at the deadline if they return good assets -- but not if the Sabres are on the bubble and the point of the trade is to weaken the team in order to improve their draft position.

 

granted. If we're on the bubble, it's likely that most of those players are having seasons worthy of a good return.

[Taro T]

 

 

Good question.

 

I would trade Stafford at the deadline, and I don't care what kind of season he has. I'm not giving him an extension -- I know how that story plays out.

 

I'm open to giving Stewart an extension if he's crushing it this year. If there is no extension in place at the deadline, though, I would trade him too.

 

I'm skeptical as to the deadline value of Enroth, Neuvirth, Mitchell and Meszaros. If any of them would return a 2nd-rounder, though -- off they go.

 

Bottom line is that I'm fine with trading any of these guys at the deadline if they return good assets -- but not if the Sabres are on the bubble and the point of the trade is to weaken the team in order to improve their draft position.

But if they're on the bubble, trading them for "good assets" could very likely weaken the team. They aren't trading Stafford (a rental) for something that helps THIS season. Same w/ the other guys you mentioned. The only way they get something at the deadline that helps get them into / keep them in the 'win the last 3 and you're in' scenario is trading away youth (either in prospects or picks). Are you willing to do that?

 

[Edit:] And if they aren't going to push to get into the playoffs when they're that close, then they are back on DR's treadmill of finishing w/ ~ the 12th overall pick. That benefits none of us and brings on even greater frustration (IMHO) than full out RR hockey. But if they DO go for it this year and drop future assets, they are also going to bring on greater frustration as most of the team should be better players in the future and are dropping assets that could/should help those future stronger players.

 

Give me top 2 in division, or give me bottom 2 in the league; anywhere else THIS YEAR is just a waste. Again, IMHO.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Taro T

[nfreeman]

But if they're on the bubble, trading them for "good assets" could very likely weaken the team. They aren't trading Stafford (a rental) for something that helps THIS season. Same w/ the other guys you mentioned. The only way they get something at the deadline that helps get them into / keep them in the 'win the last 3 and you're in' scenario is trading away youth (either in prospects or picks). Are you willing to do that?

 

[Edit:] And if they aren't going to push to get into the playoffs when they're that close, then they are back on DR's treadmill of finishing w/ ~ the 12th overall pick. That benefits none of us and brings on even greater frustration (IMHO) than full out RR hockey. But if they DO go for it this year and drop future assets, they are also going to bring on greater frustration as most of the team should be better players in the future and are dropping assets that could/should help those future stronger players.

 

Give me top 2 in division, or give me bottom 2 in the league; anywhere else THIS YEAR is just a waste. Again, IMHO.

 

I am not willing to give up picks/prospects at the deadline for a playoff push.

 

I am 100% willing to trade players on expiring contracts for good picks/prospects -- even though that will weaken the playoff push -- because that is the better long-term move.

 

I am not willing to trade players on expiring contracts for lousy assets where the point of the trade is to further the tank.

 

So if the Sabres can get a #2 pick for Stafford or Stewart -- they should do so. But if it's a #3? Or maybe a #5 for Meszaros, who has been capably holding down the #5 defenseman slot? Then I would pass.

[LastPommerFan]

I am not willing to give up picks/prospects at the deadline for a playoff push.

 

I am 100% willing to trade players on expiring contracts for good picks/prospects -- even though that will weaken the playoff push -- because that is the better long-term move.

 

I am not willing to trade players on expiring contracts for lousy assets where the point of the trade is to further the tank.

 

So if the Sabres can get a #2 pick for Stafford or Stewart -- they should do so. But if it's a #3? Or maybe a #5 for Meszaros, who has been capably holding down the #5 defenseman slot? Then I would pass.

 

The only thing that should matter in these cases is whether you've decided to extend them and they have agreed.

 

Can't let them walk if you can get ANYTHING in return. Not one of them is worth that risk.

[darksabre]

This season being terrible is a lot better than being a bubble playoff team. We've been a bubble team. Making the playoffs knowing you won't win is awful and I have no desire to revisit all the years post-07 where making the playoffs didn't mean squat.

[LGR4GM]

IF the team were playing well and going into to the final couple weeks was on the cusp I would cheer them on. At that point the 2nd part of the tank would have already been blown, no reason not to. That being said if we are still bad next year than I am fine trading a bit at the deadline and drafting in the top 5 in 2015. In 2015, nothing short of upward progress will suffice.

[biodork]

Even if I'm fighting for a playoff spot, I'm not trading picks for players in March, and I'm entertaining all offers for pending UFAs, including goalies.

 

So even if I'm not in favor of losing, my team gets significantly worse (minus Stafford, Meszaros, Stewart, Mitchell, possible Enroth and Neuvirth) for the final 6 weeks of the season. Should be enough "tank".

 

Would any of the "I want to be excited now" crowd like to offer their thoughts on what should be done at the deadline in 2015 (buy/hold/sell)?

Good question.

 

I would trade Stafford at the deadline, and I don't care what kind of season he has. I'm not giving him an extension -- I know how that story plays out.

 

I'm open to giving Stewart an extension if he's crushing it this year. If there is no extension in place at the deadline, though, I would trade him too.

 

I'm skeptical as to the deadline value of Enroth, Neuvirth, Mitchell and Meszaros. If any of them would return a 2nd-rounder, though -- off they go.

 

Bottom line is that I'm fine with trading any of these guys at the deadline if they return good assets -- but not if the Sabres are on the bubble and the point of the trade is to weaken the team in order to improve their draft position.

I am not willing to give up picks/prospects at the deadline for a playoff push.

 

I am 100% willing to trade players on expiring contracts for good picks/prospects -- even though that will weaken the playoff push -- because that is the better long-term move.

 

I am not willing to trade players on expiring contracts for lousy assets where the point of the trade is to further the tank.

 

So if the Sabres can get a #2 pick for Stafford or Stewart -- they should do so. But if it's a #3? Or maybe a #5 for Meszaros, who has been capably holding down the #5 defenseman slot? Then I would pass.

 

I'm with nfreeman again. I definitely wouldn't mortgage the future at the deadline for the sake of a playoff push, but I very much dislike the idea of actively trying to be bad. If the players are working hard and getting results, intentionally disrupting that for a possible draft pick sends the wrong message to the players who are here. That being said, I realize it's pretty unlikely this group will magically turn into the 2012 LA Kings.

[LastPommerFan]

I'm with nfreeman again. I definitely wouldn't mortgage the future at the deadline for the sake of a playoff push, but I very much dislike the idea of actively trying to be bad. If the players are working hard and getting results, intentionally disrupting that for a possible draft pick sends the wrong message to the players who are here. That being said, I realize it's pretty unlikely this group will magically turn into the 2012 LA Kings.

 

It's not about the intention to be bad, I don't really care about where the sabres draft pick lands, I fully expect Garth to provide Jack Eichel. If Meszaros, Stafford, Stewart, and Mitchell are not part of the future, and you don't trade them, they walk for nothing on 7/1. Tanking isn't about telling the guys to lose. It rarely is about getting rid of players for nothing because they might cause you to win. It's about trading current assets for futures. The opposite of tanking, in this case, is giving away, potentially, a late first and 1-2 second round picks in favor of 6 more games in April.

 

Do you let that happen in favor of (maybe) making the playoffs?

[Taro T]

 

 

I am not willing to give up picks/prospects at the deadline for a playoff push.

 

I am 100% willing to trade players on expiring contracts for good picks/prospects -- even though that will weaken the playoff push -- because that is the better long-term move.

 

I am not willing to trade players on expiring contracts for lousy assets where the point of the trade is to further the tank.

 

So if the Sabres can get a #2 pick for Stafford or Stewart -- they should do so. But if it's a #3? Or maybe a #5 for Meszaros, who has been capably holding down the #5 defenseman slot? Then I would pass.

If you're not willing to give up picks/prospects to make a push, what sort of odds do you see them having of winning those last 3 games to get into the dance?

 

I want nothing to do w/ that scenario of being on the bubble.

[biodork]

It's not about the intention to be bad, I don't really care about where the sabres draft pick lands, I fully expect Garth to provide Jack Eichel. If Meszaros, Stafford, Stewart, and Mitchell are not part of the future, and you don't trade them, they walk for nothing on 7/1. Tanking isn't about telling the guys to lose. It rarely is about getting rid of players for nothing because they might cause you to win. It's about trading current assets for futures. The opposite of tanking, in this case, is giving away, potentially, a late first and 1-2 second round picks in favor of 6 more games in April.

 

Do you let that happen in favor of (maybe) making the playoffs?

 

Definitely not, but if those players are performing well and want to be a part of the future of this team (and can be signed to a new deal / extension), I'm not opposed to keeping some of them vs flipping at the deadline, unless the return is too good to ignore.

[Taro T]

 

 

 

 

I'm with nfreeman again. I definitely wouldn't mortgage the future at the deadline for the sake of a playoff push, but I very much dislike the idea of actively trying to be bad. If the players are working hard and getting results, intentionally disrupting that for a possible draft pick sends the wrong message to the players who are here. That being said, I realize it's pretty unlikely this group will magically turn into the 2012 LA Kings.

So are you standing pat at the deadline or selling picks/prospects to help the current guys continue to get results and sneak into the playoffs. What kind of a message does standing pat send?

[IKnowPhysics]

Best option isn't available, as IKP pointed out. ...

 

Hope you don't mind the acronym

 

That's the preferred acronym.

 

We're going to trade players at the deadline for picks or prospects. The lack of roster, not the lack of effort, will make us bad enough to lose our way to Connor McEichel. We're not buyers at the deadline unless there's a long-term return that legitimately contributes to the elite team. Stewart, Stafford, Mitchell, and Meszaros are ripe for deadline deals to acquire 2015 picks or 2010-14 prospects.

[biodork]

So are you standing pat at the deadline or selling picks/prospects to help the current guys continue to get results and sneak into the playoffs. What kind of a message does standing pat send?

 

All depends on who's on the block, how they've performed, and whether they can be part of the future. I'd focus almost exclusively on the performance of the players here to decide whether they stay and be a part of things or get moved for a better return. I don't see us as buyers at the deadline under any circumstances, but I don't think it'll be a fire sale like last year (unless they're abysmally bad, which I hope not).

[Taro T]

 

 

That's the preferred acronym.

 

We're going to trade players at the deadline for picks or prospects. The lack of roster, not the lack of effort, will make us bad enough to lose our way to Connor McEichel. We're not buyers at the deadline unless there's a long-term return that legitimately contributes to the elite team. Stewart, Stafford, Mitchell, and Meszaros are ripe for deadline deals to acquire 2015 picks or 2010-14 prospects.

 

Yup. Which is why being on the cusp would be the absolute worst place to be at the trade deadline and moving forward.

 

 

 

All depends on who's on the block, how they've performed, and whether they can be part of the future. I'd focus almost exclusively on the performance of the players here to decide whether they stay and be a part of things or get moved for a better return. I don't see us as buyers at the deadline under any circumstances, but I don't think it'll be a fire sale like last year (unless they're abysmally bad, which I hope not).

And if they aren't going to be buyers at the deadline, even if they are on the verge of the playoffs, then why want to be there? It hurts the future (12th pick is far less desirable than 2nd/3rd) and does nothing (when one gets right down to it) for the present. If they don't add to the puzzle, and they are on the cusp, then standing pat probably doesn't get them in. And as this squad has shown far too often in the past decade, momentum doesn't carry over the summer.

 

I hate that I'm looking forward to them being bad, but I am. Mediocre will be far worse. A surprise run of them actually being good, would be preferred yet more, but it isn't likely. So I'm back to let the bad times roll.

 

[Edit:] And I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone advocating a firesale like the past 2. If they're truly horrible, it won't be necessary.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Taro T

[IKnowPhysics]

There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the Stanley Cup and the salvation of Buffalo. The door to your left leads back to the mediocrity, to them... and to the end of your fans' hopes. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction: the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you to the simple and obvious truth: the Buffalo Sabres 2014 playoff chances are going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

 

 

 

Woah.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by IKnowPhysics

[LastPommerFan]

Yup. Which is why being on the cusp would be the absolute worst place to be at the trade deadline and moving forward.

 

I don't think it'd be that bad to be on the cusp with 18 games remaining. We could easily go 3-15 in that span if we trade those 4 guys and the better performing goalie. That would slide us nicely into the bottom 3.

[biodork]

Yup. Which is why being on the cusp would be the absolute worst place to be at the trade deadline and moving forward.

 

 

And if they aren't going to be buyers at the deadline, even if they are on the verge of the playoffs, then why want to be there? It hurts the future (12th pick is far less desirable than 2nd/3rd) and does nothing (when one gets right down to it) for the present. If they don't add to the puzzle, and they are on the cusp, then standing pat probably doesn't get them in. And as this squad has shown far too often in the past decade, momentum doesn't carry over the summer.

 

I hate that I'm looking forward to them being bad, but I am. Mediocre will be far worse. A surprise run of them actually being good, would be preferred yet more, but it isn't likely. So I'm back to let the bad times roll.

 

Perhaps I should clarify: I don't want them to be the 9th seed trying to make the dance. But if they should surprise us all and be in 7th/8th at the deadline with signs of them having a chance to make some noise, I want them FO to let the kids play and possibly get some postseason experience vs. intentionally making the team worse for a better draft pick. I completely realize this scenario is highly unlikely, but if it happens I'll be cheering them on and not pissed off about them ruining the tank.

 

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:clapping:

[Taro T]

 

 

I don't think it'd be that bad to be on the cusp with 18 games remaining. We could easily go 3-15 in that span if we trade those 4 guys and the better performing goalie. That would slide us nicely into the bottom 3.

In a normal year w/ 0-1 'generational' talents available, that's quite likely. This year everyone south of the 'Mendoza line' at the deadline will be selling like crazy. It's going to be reeeeaaaaal hard to drop 9 slots in less than 1/4 of a season.

[LastPommerFan]

In a normal year w/ 0-1 'generational' talents available, that's quite likely. This year everyone south of the 'Mendoza line' at the deadline will be selling like crazy. It's going to be reeeeaaaaal hard to drop 9 slots in less than 1/4 of a season.

 

I thought of that after I hit "post".

 

It's actually going to severely depress the market on 3/2 as well. Everyone on the outside except the islanders, rangers, and blues is going to be burning the house down.

[Taro T]

 

 

Perhaps I should clarify: I don't want them to be the 9th seed trying to make the dance. But if they should surprise us all and be in 7th/8th at the deadline with signs of them having a chance to make some noise, I want them FO to let the kids play and possibly get some postseason experience vs. intentionally making the team worse for a better draft pick. I completely realize this scenario is highly unlikely, but if it happens I'll be cheering them on and not pissed off about them ruining the tank.

 

 

 

:clapping:

I might have missed it, but (w/ the exception of me stating that I don't want Sam here after game 9) I don't recall anyone saying force a tank. (Dropping Stafford, Stewart, & Meszaros does not a forced tank make. Dropping Moulson, Gorges, and them gets you far closer.)

 

The question was, do you want to be sitting near 28 w/3 games to go, or on the cusp of the playoffs. There is almost nothing to be gained, LT, by sitting on the cusp at the end of the season. There is a lot to be gained, LT, by sitting at 29.

 

I've owned seasons for 20 years; for the love of all things holy, please don't slot the Sabres' own pick 12-18. I want it top 4 or bottom 4. All else is a waste, IMHO.

[LGR4GM]

Look if we hit the deadline in 8th place with some momentum, see where it goes. We hit the deadline in 12th and are all over the map, rebuild continues.

[biodork]

I might have missed it, but (w/ the exception of me stating that I don't want Sam here after game 9) I don't recall anyone saying force a tank. (Dropping Stafford, Stewart, & Meszaros does not a forced tank make. Dropping Moulson, Gorges, and them gets you far closer.)

 

The question was, do you want to be sitting near 28 w/3 games to go, or on the cusp of the playoffs. There is almost nothing to be gained, LT, by sitting on the cusp at the end of the season. There is a lot to be gained, LT, by sitting at 29.

 

I've owned seasons for 20 years; for the love of all things holy, please don't slot the Sabres' own pick 12-18. I want it top 4 or bottom 4. All else is a waste, IMHO.

 

Probably, but if they find themselves there in spite of the team that's been assembled, I won't be mad about it; I'll happily cheer them on and chalk it up to the kids getting more experience.

 

Look if we hit the deadline in 8th place with some momentum, see where it goes. We hit the deadline in 12th and are all over the map, rebuild continues.

 

This.

[Taro T]

 

 

I thought of that after I hit "post".

 

It's actually going to severely depress the market on 3/2 as well. Everyone on the outside except the islanders, rangers, and blues is going to be burning the house down.

And that's why I want the Isles burried deep in the cellar. I don't want FLA, the Candycanes, the Otters & etc. to be able to slide themselves under them by giving them rentals.

[nfreeman]

This season being terrible is a lot better than being a bubble playoff team. We've been a bubble team. Making the playoffs knowing you won't win is awful and I have no desire to revisit all the years post-07 where making the playoffs didn't mean squat.

 

All 2 of those years?

 

I'll also point out that the Sabres' history over the past 4 years might've been quite different if the Sabres had managed to hold a 2-goal lead at home vs Philly in game 6 in 2011.

 

If you're not willing to give up picks/prospects to make a push, what sort of odds do you see them having of winning those last 3 games to get into the dance?

 

About the same odds as there are of being in the position to make the playoffs with 3 games to go -- i.e. not great but not negligible either.

 

If the Sabres are in that position with 3 games to go -- then, yes, it would have been nice for TM to have added another piece at the deadline, but even so, it will have been the guys in the room -- players and coaches -- that got them there. Those guys will have bought in 100% at that point, and we'll have seen a lot of improvement from a lot of different guys.

 

Yup. Which is why being on the cusp would be the absolute worst place to be at the trade deadline and moving forward.

 

 

And if they aren't going to be buyers at the deadline, even if they are on the verge of the playoffs, then why want to be there? It hurts the future (12th pick is far less desirable than 2nd/3rd) and does nothing (when one gets right down to it) for the present. If they don't add to the puzzle, and they are on the cusp, then standing pat probably doesn't get them in. And as this squad has shown far too often in the past decade, momentum doesn't carry over the summer.

 

I hate that I'm looking forward to them being bad, but I am. Mediocre will be far worse. A surprise run of them actually being good, would be preferred yet more, but it isn't likely. So I'm back to let the bad times roll.

 

[Edit:] And I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone advocating a firesale like the past 2. If they're truly horrible, it won't be necessary.

 

I think making the playoffs this year would be a huge boost for this franchise, and, given the amount of youth on the team and in the system I would expect their improvement to continue -- not plateau as a bubble team.

 

In a normal year w/ 0-1 'generational' talents available, that's quite likely. This year everyone south of the 'Mendoza line' at the deadline will be selling like crazy. It's going to be reeeeaaaaal hard to drop 9 slots in less than 1/4 of a season.

 

Definitely. We are going to see a number of teams tanking hard -- which is another reason why I'm skeptical that the Sabres will end up in last place this year.

[Taro T]

 

 

Probably, but if they find themselves there in spite of the team that's been assembled, I won't be mad about it; I'll happily cheer them on and chalk it up to the kids getting more experience.

 

 

 

This.

Though I don't agree w/ the bolded, I get it. But WHY you'd prefer to be on the cusp w/ 3 to go rather than entrenched at the bottom this year escapes me.