Could a rival league slay the NHL?

[PASabreFan]

This idea stems mainly from the goal that was called back in Vancouver. The VP of the league admitted that the puck was not kicked in with a distinct kicking motion, but that doesn't matter anymore because the league send out DVDs to the teams a few months ago explaining the new standard, which has something to do with the direction the puck is coming from and the speed with which the puck enters the net off a skate. And they apparently (again) didn't think it was important to tell the media or the fans about it. It's stunning -- and that's saying a lot when describing a reaction to something this league does.

 

The idea also started percolating when I see a ref watch Vanek get slashed -- and injured, badly -- and he doesn't call the slash and the mandatory five minute major and game misconduct. Among many, many other officiating issues we're all familiar with.

 

Poorly managed, poorly officiated. The product is all over the place. The ratings are weak.

 

THIS SHOULD BE THE GREATEST PROFESSIONAL SPORT ON EARTH. The game is that good. The players are that good. Before the opening faceoff of each game and each period, there's a fresh sheet of ice and the best hockey players in the world. When the puck hits the ice, where does this great game go? And who stole it from us? And why?

 

I think of it this way. Take two NHL teams. Put them on a frozen pond somewhere and let them sort out what the game should look like. Do you realize how good their games would be, without all the garbage that's piled on top of them? Why can't we see these games every night? Lindy said it himself during the playoff race. He was talking about how great the games were, how many chances the teams were taking. He said something like "You wonder why we don't see this all the time?"

 

So the question is whether a group of non-dinosaurs could create a better professional hockey league in North America. Really, how hard could it be?

[Ohiofan]

hmmmmmmmmm...how hard can it be? Just ask the IHRA.

[MattPie]

hmmmmmmmmm...how hard can it be? Just ask the IHRA.

 

That a hockey league or the drag racing series?

[Trey]

In my opinion there are two causes for this. First, poor leadership in the NHL. They just can't get it right, whether it is suspensions, officiating, etc. Sure, for a short while they had it right after the lockout, but we are right back to where we started.

 

Second, I think that the talent in the league is spread too thin. You have goons playing against superstars. I'm sorry, but a goon can't keep up with a superstar, so they have to play a dirty, grabby, crappy game. You'll see the same thing on the pond, and then a fight breaks out and they send the goon home after he beats the snot out of someone. Well, I'm sorry, but they're not sending the dirty players in the NHL home, so we're stuck with teams and players that just can't keep up with skill, so they are forced to find another way to win and we end up with sub-par hockey.

 

Any other league will have the same problems though...it's just the destiny of hockey for some reason.

[Ohiofan]

That a hockey league or the drag racing series?

Drag Racing. NHRA has been the long-time "good old boy" organization, and the premier sanctioning body in the sport. Years ago a few got tired of the way things were run and started their own sanctioning body...the IHRA. It has been decades of struggle. Some successes, yes, but they are a long way from toppling the good 'ol boys.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Any new league would have the same issues with the quality of officiating. It is a very fast game and no matter how much we complain about it, it's not like there are 50 guys reffing Bantam games somewhere who could suddenly step in and do better. Some consistency would be nice, but again, that is a complaint in ever league in every sport. Why does one NFL crew call 5 holding penalties per week and another calls 2?

 

Would a 20-24 team league make the quality of play better? Without a doubt. But that league would include at least 6 Canadian markets ... leaving like 18 U.S. markets to offer to the TV people ... where are you putting the teams? If you nuke Florida, Tampa, Atlanta, Nashville, Carolina, Phoenix, one of the L.A. teams ... the package is not very attractive to them. But maybe the NHL could bite the bullet and do it since the TV money is not much now. But a new rival league would be competing in the strong hockey markets and be fighting decades of loyalty ... do you want to compete against the Leafs and Marlies and all the good junior hockey in Ontario? Against the Habs in Quebec? Against the Bruins (and Celtics, Pats, etc.) in Boston?

[Mbossy]

In North America maybe. Wouldn't be as good as the NHL player-wise IMO, for points mentioned by Ohiofan.

 

And I'd like to thank McAfee for f##king up my computer. :death:

[PASabreFan]

In my opinion there are two causes for this. First, poor leadership in the NHL. They just can't get it right, whether it is suspensions, officiating, etc. Sure, for a short while they had it right after the lockout, but we are right back to where we started.

 

Second, I think that the talent in the league is spread too thin. You have goons playing against superstars. I'm sorry, but a goon can't keep up with a superstar, so they have to play a dirty, grabby, crappy game. You'll see the same thing on the pond, and then a fight breaks out and they send the goon home after he beats the snot out of someone. Well, I'm sorry, but they're not sending the dirty players in the NHL home, so we're stuck with teams and players that just can't keep up with skill, so they are forced to find another way to win and we end up with sub-par hockey.

 

Any other league will have the same problems though...it's just the destiny of hockey for some reason.

 

You ready for this? This always amazes me. Vaclav Varada scored 50 goals in the WHL. (And 39 the next year in the WHL.) P.S. He had 23 in 96-97 for the Sabres. Then he met Lindy, but that's another rant for another time, maybe about 9:30 tonight.

[PromoTheRobot]

So you want to start a new league over one video call??? FYI, I agree with the call. Even though he didn't actually kick the puck he used his stopping motion to direct the puck in. It looked deliberate to me. Even then it wasn't a game changer. L.A. scored another goal making that call moot. Take a pill.

 

PTR

[Sabre Dance]

Well, this was already tried with the World Hockey Association. It worked for a few seasons. Then, the weaker WHA teams started to founder and the NHL absorbed the four healthiest teams; Quebec, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Hartford.

 

I agree that the dilution of talent caused by over-expansion is having a bad effect on the quality of play in the NHL, as well as the inequity in officiating. (A two-handed slash goes unpenalized but if you tap a player on the glove while skating behind him, it's a hooking call).

 

The NHL needs to take a good, solid look at its business plan. They have teams in cities that can't or won't support hockey. Two teams in Florida? Two in L.A. (and another in San Jose)? One each in Phoenix and Atlanta? But none in Winnipeg, Hamilton or Quebec. No league wants to admit that putting a team in a particular city was a failure. However, the NHL has done it before. The expansion team that was the Kansas City Scouts moved to Colorado and then to Jersey. The Cleveland Barons merged with the North Stars. So, why not either move or consolidate teams so that the league is a little healthier all around?

 

The also need to get the officiating/supplementary discipline thing worked out. Too many variables. Figure out how much physical play is enough and draw the line. Anyone who steps over that line gets penalized and suspended if necessary. Right now, the league is trying to sell a sanitized game to American markets but still keep enough grit in the game to please Canadian media pundits who still believe in 40's-style "Rock'em sock'em" hockey. Figure out what you really want and go with it....

[theend]

All leagues/groups/associations grow to have the same problems. The bigger they get, the more money comes in, the more bureaucracy is created. Even if you could created a successful alternative, it would almost certainly succumb (eventually) to the same problems the NHL has now - because money is all that most owners will ever be interested in.

 

Also, because hockey has such a passionate fan-base, I highly doubt anyone in the strong hockey markets is going to abandon their team for a new one in a fledgling league. Can you see people in Montreal ditching the Habs? Wings fans jumping ship in Detroit? Even most long-suffering Leafs fans probably wouldn't abandon their team. There are certainly fans to be had, even in those markets, but I just don't see it being enough to actually compete with the NHL.

[PASabreFan]

So you want to start a new league over one video call??? FYI, I agree with the call. Even though he didn't actually kick the puck he used his stopping motion to direct the puck in. It looked deliberate to me. Even then it wasn't a game changer. L.A. scored another goal making that call moot. Take a pill.

 

PTR

 

The puck can be deliberately directed in with a skate. Didn't "actually kick the puck" (no distinct kicking motion) means it should be a good goal. Or was until the league reinvented another rule late in a regular season without telling anyone.

[SwampD]

It wasn't a slash and the ratings are up.

[PASabreFan]

It wasn't a slash and the ratings are up.

 

What wasn't a slash?

[SwampD]

This idea stems mainly from the goal that was called back in Vancouver. The VP of the league admitted that the puck was not kicked in with a distinct kicking motion, but that doesn't matter anymore because the league send out DVDs to the teams a few months ago explaining the new standard, which has something to do with the direction the puck is coming from and the speed with which the puck enters the net off a skate. And they apparently (again) didn't think it was important to tell the media or the fans about it. It's stunning -- and that's saying a lot when describing a reaction to something this league does.

 

The idea also started percolating when I see a ref watch Vanek get slashed -- and injured, badly -- and he doesn't call the slash and the mandatory five minute major and game misconduct. Among many, many other officiating issues we're all familiar with.

 

Poorly managed, poorly officiated. The product is all over the place. The ratings are weak.

 

THIS SHOULD BE THE GREATEST PROFESSIONAL SPORT ON EARTH. The game is that good. The players are that good. Before the opening faceoff of each game and each period, there's a fresh sheet of ice and the best hockey players in the world. When the puck hits the ice, where does this great game go? And who stole it from us? And why?

 

I think of it this way. Take two NHL teams. Put them on a frozen pond somewhere and let them sort out what the game should look like. Do you realize how good their games would be, without all the garbage that's piled on top of them? Why can't we see these games every night? Lindy said it himself during the playoff race. He was talking about how great the games were, how many chances the teams were taking. He said something like "You wonder why we don't see this all the time?"

 

So the question is whether a group of non-dinosaurs could create a better professional hockey league in North America. Really, how hard could it be?

[theend]

It wasn't a slash and the ratings are up.

 

The ratings are up...but if that's NOT a slash at :20...

 

 

...what is your definition of one?

[SwampD]

I just want to say that I agree with almost all of this other than what I pointed out. But I think that is the problem, there will alwyas be disagreement about plays that happen as fast as they do.

[BetweenThePipes00]

It was definitely a slash, but pretty much a garden variety slash that caught him in a bad spot. That play happens at least once in every NHL game, just usually gets the shinpad and not the knee.

[SwampD]

It was definitely a slash, but pretty much a garden variety slash that caught him in a bad spot. That play happens at least once in every NHL game, just usually gets the shinpad and not the knee.

I still see a guy who missed lifting the stick on the outside and tried to hit the stick on the inside (Warning-golf terms: If he was only trying to slash, his blade would have been open. It was closed because he was trying to hook Vanek's stick).

 

What I really wanted to talk about though, they always talk about the ratings of the NHL compared to the NHL, but that is only for the US. I bet if you combined the ratings of both countries for both sports they would be amazingly similar.

[theend]

I still see a guy who missed lifting the stick on the outside and tried to hit the stick on the inside (Warning-golf terms: If he was only trying to slash, his blade would have been open. It was closed because he was trying to hook Vanek's stick).

 

What I really wanted to talk about though, they always talk about the ratings of the NHL compared to the NHL, but that is only for the US. I bet if you combined the ratings of both countries for both sports they would be amazingly similar.

 

Though I don't necessarily agree with your assessment, I can see why you're looking at it that way. For me, though, he was still trying to slash, even if he was going for the stick. And that's a penalty, either way.

 

Per ratings - My wife works in television research/ratings, and Canada just doesn't factor in. Most importantly, the ad revenues are completely separate. But add in that the Canadian population is almost 10 times smaller than the US, 33 million vs 307 million, and the percentages just don't add up. If 50% of Canada watches a hockey game, it's still only 15-17 million people. And if 5% of the US watches, it's identical. But if you were to see those #s represented in ratings...in the US they're going to look puny, while Canada's #s look huge.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I still see a guy who missed lifting the stick on the outside and tried to hit the stick on the inside (Warning-golf terms: If he was only trying to slash, his blade would have been open. It was closed because he was trying to hook Vanek's stick).

OK, but he did it with enough force that I am sure he would have been OK with a slashing penalty if he got stick and it broke in half. He was trying to do anything to stop the scoring chance ... point is you and I seem to agree it was not a major penalty let alone suspendable offense.

 

 

What I really wanted to talk about though, they always talk about the ratings of the NHL compared to the NHL, but that is only for the US. I bet if you combined the ratings of both countries for both sports they would be amazingly similar.

Well but as far as advertisers and networks are concerned, all that matters are the U.S. numbers. Canadian networks are selling seperate advertising. the networks need a number they can go sell ... NBC can't sell 6 million canadians watching because they will not see the ads.

[Trey]

Let's take this another direction for fun. Instead of starting a new league, what if the NHL implemented a promotion/demotion system like they have in European soccer? Drop the league to 20 or so teams, form three lower divisions between those that dropped out (10), the AHL (29) and the ECHL (20). College and the QMJHL would still help foster talent, but we would lose the draft. Players will move up as they become better through trades/purchase/loan and teams will have agreements with higher/lower teams to help their players develop rather than having a farm system. The big question is if you keep the cap in place. I don't think it would be easy, but it might work.

 

I think it would be a good direction for our sport. Fire away!

[SwampD]

OK, but he did it with enough force that I am sure he would have been OK with a slashing penalty if he got stick and it broke in half. He was trying to do anything to stop the scoring chance ... point is you and I seem to agree it was not a major penalty let alone suspendable offense.

 

We got the hook (which it was). If they gave a slashing call instead I would have been okay with that. Either way two minutes was enough.

 

Well but as far as advertisers and networks are concerned, all that matters are the U.S. numbers. Canadian networks are selling seperate advertising. the networks need a number they can go sell ... NBC can't sell 6 million canadians watching because they will not see the ads.

When talking about the strength of the league, the ratings are always mentioned, but whether it's to US companies and networks or Canadian companies and networks, the NHL is still a product being sold. I just don't see why the Canadian numbers don't figure in (EDIT: Especially when it comes to the Sabres).

[Chief Enabler]

You ready for this? This always amazes me. Vaclav Varada scored 50 goals in the WHL. (And 39 the next year in the WHL.) P.S. He had 23 in 96-97 for the Sabres. Then he met Lindy, but that's another rant for another time, maybe about 9:30 tonight.

Varada is probably in my top 5 for Sabres all-time. He was and always will be my Ovechkin :wub:

[theend]

 

When talking about the strength of the league, the ratings are always mentioned, but whether it's to US companies and networks or Canadian companies and networks, the NHL is still a product being sold. I just don't see why the Canadian numbers don't figure in (EDIT: Especially when it comes to the Sabres).

 

It's posturing, that's all. As I mentioned, the Canadian #s always LOOK huge, but in reality, the number of people watching in Canada vs the US isn't THAT disparate. It's just the percentage of the population...which, when you consider that it's Canada's game, makes sense.