Is Vanek the greatest Austrian hockey player ever?

[korab rules]

I agree with PA, its frustrating as hell that TV can't get more ice time than he does. Ruff has to give him those opportunities.

 

Myers is not a fair comparison - there are three sets of D, four lines of forwards.

 

I thought that Vanek played much better the last two games. He wasn't rewarded, but he was working harder in the offensive zone, and even threw a couple checks.

 

A couple things about Vanek: First, the guy has incredible vision - he finds ways to put the puck on his team mates' stick that even they don't anticipate. His linemates need to ALWAYS be expecting a pass when TV has the puck, and they haven't been. I can't count how many times TV has fed Staff near the net, and Staff can't come up with the puck. Second, and this is a pet peeve of mine, is the view that Vanek is a lazy skater or doesn't hustle. TV is one of the more deceptive skaters you will see. His stride never seems to change, whether he is at full speed or half. There are guys whose legs are going a mile a minute and never seem to go anywhere, and there are guys whose stride is so efficient they fly without seeming to break a sweat. The better measure of Vanek's effort in skating is to see how many times he gets caught from behind (or catches someone else from behind) and how many loose pucks he gets beaten to. Vanek skates hard, it just doesn't look that way.

 

My son is a TV freak, so I spend an inordinate amount of time paying attention to his game. Watch him really closely for an entire game, and I think you will see what I see.

[LabattBlue]

I agree with PA, its frustrating as hell that TV can't get more ice time than he does. Ruff has to give him those opportunities.

 

Myers is not a fair comparison - there are three sets of D, four lines of forwards.

 

I thought that Vanek played much better the last two games. He wasn't rewarded, but he was working harder in the offensive zone, and even threw a couple checks.

 

A couple things about Vanek: First, the guy has incredible vision - he finds ways to put the puck on his team mates' stick that even they don't anticipate. His linemates need to ALWAYS be expecting a pass when TV has the puck, and they haven't been. I can't count how many times TV has fed Staff near the net, and Staff can't come up with the puck. Second, and this is a pet peeve of mine, is the view that Vanek is a lazy skater or doesn't hustle. TV is one of the more deceptive skaters you will see. His stride never seems to change, whether he is at full speed or half. There are guys whose legs are going a mile a minute and never seem to go anywhere, and there are guys whose stride is so efficient they fly without seeming to break a sweat. The better measure of Vanek's effort in skating is to see how many times he gets caught from behind (or catches someone else from behind) and how many loose pucks he gets beaten to. Vanek skates hard, it just doesn't look that way.

 

My son is a TV freak, so I spend an inordinate amount of time paying attention to his game. Watch him really closely for an entire game, and I think you will see what I see.

You are correct that Vanek does have the type of stride that makes it seem like he is not skating fast, but make no mistake about it, there are plenty of times when he is dogging it. If the NHL said today that each team could keep 3 of its own players and the rest go back into some sort of a draft, would Vanek be one of them? I'd guess half of the responses would not include TV.

 

As is stands today, I'd keep Butler, Myers & Miller and go from there.

 

 

It has been mentioned before, but Vanek is not the same player he was 2 years ago. I don't know what happened, but he just isn't the same.

[spndnchz]

I see no need to worry about anyone right now. Yeah, we can talk this or that, but I'm not worried. They know what they need to do, some nights they just can't do it, no team can do it all the time.

 

And, I like when Vanek says stuff like this:

"This one falls on me. I’m the goal scorer here, and I could have put the Islanders away in the first period myself, and I didn’t. From that end, it’s disappointing. I’ve got to be better. I’ve got to put those away. It’s my job, and I didn’t do it. It cost us the game."

[jimiVbaby]

You are correct that Vanek does have the type of stride that makes it seem like he is not skating fast, but make no mistake about it, there are plenty of times when he is dogging it. If the NHL said today that each team could keep 3 of its own players and the rest go back into some sort of a draft, would Vanek be one of them? I'd guess half of the responses would not include TV.

 

As is stands today, I'd keep Butler, Myers & Miller and go from there.

 

 

It has been mentioned before, but Vanek is not the same player he was 2 years ago. I don't know what happened, but he just isn't the same.

I really like the way Butler is playing but I have a hard time picking him over TV. Thomas is the Sabres only 40 goal threat, why pick Butler that has first line potential? I'm taking the sure thing every day of the week.

[korab rules]

You are correct that Vanek does have the type of stride that makes it seem like he is not skating fast, but make no mistake about it, there are plenty of times when he is dogging it.

 

I agree, there have been a couple games where he seemed disinterested, but I wouldn't include the last two in it. I came away from those games encouraged that he was working hard to break out of the mini skid he is in.

 

It has been mentioned before, but Vanek is not the same player he was 2 years ago. I don't know what happened, but he just isn't the same.

 

True, his game has evolved, as has the NHL and his role on the team. Two years ago, he was on the best 3rd line in hockey playing a run and gun game against other team's lines unequipped to deal with the speed and skill of Max-Roy-TV.

 

Two years later, he is playing on the top line against the other team's best checkers and top D pairing in a league that has nearly completely regressed to the clutch and grab days. Instead of a full speed down hill attack, he is trying to play a puck possession, forechecking system that may not mesh well with his skills. He has the coordination to pick 90 mph slap shots out of the air, and is a big body with a long reach, so Lindy sticks him in front of the net on the PP, and lets the other team pound on him. I think Lindy is a damn good coach, but he seems to be trying to turn TV into Dave Andreychuck, which is a horrible thing to do to the only pure offensive talent we have. TV's vision and creativity are unfortunately unmatched on this squad. If he had an elite finisher on his line, they would be the second coming of LaFontaine and Mogilney.

 

I think the broken jaw did have some effect, and Lindy is slowly wringing the creativity out of TV's game. And Roy continually trying to beat three men singlehandedly instead of feeding TV on the wing isn't helping either.

[korab rules]

I see no need to worry about anyone right now. Yeah, we can talk this or that, but I'm not worried. They know what they need to do, some nights they just can't do it, no team can do it all the time.

 

And, I like when Vanek says stuff like this:

"This one falls on me. I’m the goal scorer here, and I could have put the Islanders away in the first period myself, and I didn’t. From that end, it’s disappointing. I’ve got to be better. I’ve got to put those away. It’s my job, and I didn’t do it. It cost us the game."

 

 

I like that quote, too, but I heard similar things too many times last year. If there is one thing this team does better than any other, its giving lip service and platitudes.

 

I don't want to hear about how they need to do better, I want to see it next game.

 

I'm not worried yet. They hadn't played well in probably 3 or 4 games before the Islanders debacle, and we all knew it was coming. I want to see how they respond. Do they go into a three game woe is me skid? Or do they get their #%^$#! together, come out firing on all cylinders, and kick the crap out of the lowly Isles on Wednesday night? We will learn a lot about this team this week.

 

If they can keep it dialed in for extended stretches, this team could be dangerous.

[nfreeman]

I agree, there have been a couple games where he seemed disinterested, but I wouldn't include the last two in it. I came away from those games encouraged that he was working hard to break out of the mini skid he is in.

I agree with this.

 

True, his game has evolved, as has the NHL and his role on the team. Two years ago, he was on the best 3rd line in hockey playing a run and gun game against other team's lines unequipped to deal with the speed and skill of Max-Roy-TV.

 

Two years later, he is playing on the top line against the other team's best checkers and top D pairing

And this.

 

in a league that has nearly completely regressed to the clutch and grab days.

Not this though. IMHO, there is nowhere near the amount of hooking, clutching, grabbing and interference that there was pre-lockout. What has happened is that the refs have let a bit more go than they did in 05-06, but more importantly, coaches and players have adapted to the new rules. Defense groups are faster now. Coaches have clogged the front of the net with shotblockers.

 

Instead of a full speed down hill attack, he is trying to play a puck possession, forechecking system that may not mesh well with his skills.

I agree with this too.

 

He has the coordination to pick 90 mph slap shots out of the air, and is a big body with a long reach, so Lindy sticks him in front of the net on the PP, and lets the other team pound on him. I think Lindy is a damn good coach, but he seems to be trying to turn TV into Dave Andreychuck, which is a horrible thing to do to the only pure offensive talent we have.

But scoring from down low has always been Vanek's bread and butter.

 

TV's vision and creativity are unfortunately unmatched on this squad. If he had an elite finisher on his line, they would be the second coming of LaFontaine and Mogilney.

I don't agree with this at all. I see Vanek as a finisher, not as a playmaker. Frankly, I think he passes too often and usually with little success.

 

I like that quote, too, but I heard similar things too many times last year. If there is one thing this team does better than any other, its giving lip service and platitudes.

 

I don't want to hear about how they need to do better, I want to see it next game.

 

I'm not worried yet. They hadn't played well in probably 3 or 4 games before the Islanders debacle, and we all knew it was coming. I want to see how they respond. Do they go into a three game woe is me skid? Or do they get their #%^$#! together, come out firing on all cylinders, and kick the crap out of the lowly Isles on Wednesday night? We will learn a lot about this team this week.

 

If they can keep it dialed in for extended stretches, this team could be dangerous.

I generally agree with this, although I think they played very well vs. the Devils. They also came out flying and blew out Florida and then put the game on cruise control since it was out of reach in by the end of the 1st period.

[LabattBlue]

I agree, there have been a couple games where he seemed disinterested, but I wouldn't include the last two in it. I came away from those games encouraged that he was working hard to break out of the mini skid he is in.

 

True, his game has evolved, as has the NHL and his role on the team. Two years ago, he was on the best 3rd line in hockey playing a run and gun game against other team's lines unequipped to deal with the speed and skill of Max-Roy-TV.

You know for a fact that Vanek-Roy-Stafford are playing against the opponents top defensive line and top blueline pair or are you just making the assumption that other teams are doing this? Even if it is true(and I suspect it's not), it is something that all the other top players in the league have to deal with at times.

 

If he is still disappearing after the Olympic break and down the stretch, it will hurt the team a lot more than it is right now. I'll keep my fingers crossed that he breaks out of this funk.

[korab rules]

 

Not this though. IMHO, there is nowhere near the amount of hooking, clutching, grabbing and interference that there was pre-lockout. What has happened is that the refs have let a bit more go than they did in 05-06, but more importantly, coaches and players have adapted to the new rules. Defense groups are faster now. Coaches have clogged the front of the net with shotblockers.

 

Ok, OK, I may have overstated it for dramatic effect. You are dead on. The hulking, slow, unable to turn defenders of the past have mostly been put out to pasture, and the days of the shot blocking (and as a result , cross crease pass blocking) defensemen are upon us. Same result, though, no clear shots, few tic tac toe plays off the rush.

 

 

 

But scoring from down low has always been Vanek's bread and butter.

 

Has it, or is that just what the system has allowed him to show? The guy is dangerous from anywhere on the ice, which he has proven over the years. He has a multitude of shots, and is crafty, able to use defenders as screens and disguise where he intends to go. If anything, he is too crafty when given time and space, foregoing the simple play for something a little more exotic.

 

 

I don't agree with this at all. I see Vanek as a finisher, not as a playmaker. Frankly, I think he passes too often and usually with little success.

 

I have to disagree with you here. I think Vanek is one of the rare is players who is as good a finsher as he is a set up man. The attack of TV, Roy and Staf is predictable. If by some miracle Roy doesn't cough up the puck trying to stick handle through 3 defenders, they will try to set up TV at the left side of the net. When Patty and Mogilney came across the blue line, no one new who was going to shoot the puck, they both had phenomenal numbers. TV needs a center like THAT!

 

 

I generally agree with this, although I think they played very well vs. the Devils. They also came out flying and blew out Florida and then put the game on cruise control since it was out of reach in by the end of the 1st period.

 

I thought they were so so vs. the devils, and more importantly to my analysis, they didn't play their system very well. Granted, it was against the devils. I thought they looked like total crap against Florida after the first period, they just wanted that game to be over. My point is that they have not seemed to play their system very well for several games. They kept winning despite that, but a game like saturday was inevitable.

[korab rules]

You know for a fact that Vanek-Roy-Stafford are playing against the opponents top defensive line and top blueline pair or are you just making the assumption that other teams are doing this? Even if it is true(and I suspect it's not), it is something that all the other top players in the league have to deal with at times.

 

If he is still disappearing after the Olympic break and down the stretch, it will hurt the team a lot more than it is right now. I'll keep my fingers crossed that he breaks out of this funk.

 

I'm sure he doesn't see them every shift, and I don't know how you would find that out for certain, but I think its safe to say that's what he is seeing the majority of the time, much more so than when he was a 3rd liner.

 

He's a streaky player, when he's on he's phenomenal. He's in a mimi slump right now, but seems to be working hard to get out of it. Lets hope he is successful.

[nfreeman]

Has it, or is that just what the system has allowed him to show? The guy is dangerous from anywhere on the ice, which he has proven over the years. He has a multitude of shots, and is crafty, able to use defenders as screens and disguise where he intends to go. If anything, he is too crafty when given time and space, foregoing the simple play for something a little more exotic.

 

I have to disagree with you here. I think Vanek is one of the rare is players who is as good a finsher as he is a set up man. The attack of TV, Roy and Staf is predictable. If by some miracle Roy doesn't cough up the puck trying to stick handle through 3 defenders, they will try to set up TV at the left side of the net. When Patty and Mogilney came across the blue line, no one new who was going to shoot the puck, they both had phenomenal numbers. TV needs a center like THAT!

Now we're getting closer. I agree that he is dangerous from anywhere on the ice. I haven't seen him do anything as a setup man though. The Sabres don't have another elite finisher like Heatley (or like Vanek for that matter), but Pommer is a good-to-very-good finisher who knows how to get to the right spot, and I didn't see Vanek set him up during the (admittedly few) games when the 2 of them were together with Connolly. I'd love to be wrong about that though, and to see Stafford finish some TV feeds.

[bottlecap]

I think that Lindy Ruff practices a "Peoples Express" type of team...sort of like a Communist country. Everyone's the same, you give your all and you get the hell off...I think he's a star killer. Not too many stars last here too long during the Ruff Era...except Hasek, who imploded in the end. Everyone gets kicked in the a** and if you don't like it, take a walk. He's not much into coddling (see Paille)

 

Also Biron would have looked good as a #1 1/2 instead of Lalime doncha think?

[korab rules]

I think that Lindy Ruff practices a "Peoples Express" type of team...sort of like a Communist country. Everyone's the same, you give your all and you get the hell off...I think he's a star killer. Not too many stars last here too long during the Ruff Era...except Hasek, who imploded in the end. Everyone gets kicked in the a** and if you don't like it, take a walk. He's not much into coddling (see Paille)

 

Also Biron would have looked good as a #1 1/2 instead of Lalime doncha think?

 

Biron would have been awesome as a 1.5, particularly at 1.5. Problem is, we have Lalime signed, with probably little chance of moving him. You know this team won't just eat his salary.

 

Oh, and there was the little thing about Marty still thinking he is a number one goalie, which is why he wanted to leave here in the first place.

 

Maybe next year we can get him back. Finally, a back up Lindy would trust. How good would Miller be if he only had to play 55 games???

[nfreeman]

Biron would have been awesome as a 1.5, particularly at 1.5. Problem is, we have Lalime signed, with probably little chance of moving him. You know this team won't just eat his salary.

 

Oh, and there was the little thing about Marty still thinking he is a number one goalie, which is why he wanted to leave here in the first place.

 

Maybe next year we can get him back. Finally, a back up Lindy would trust. How good would Miller be if he only had to play 55 games???

It sounded like they were ready to eat Lalime's salary, since they were trying to bring Marty back last summer. In any case though you nailed it -- Marty wants to be a #1, not a #2. That's why he's not here.

[bottlecap]

Biron would have been awesome as a 1.5, particularly at 1.5. Problem is, we have Lalime signed, with probably little chance of moving him. You know this team won't just eat his salary.

 

 

I think the Sabres just have to eat Lalime's salary and move on. The man is completely useless.

[korab rules]

I think the Sabres just have to eat Lalime's salary and move on. The man is completely useless.

 

If Miller were to go down for any extended period, I think Enroth would be on a plane in a hurry. Not sure what is up with Lalime - didn't he win 20+ games for Chicago the year before we signed him? He was supposed to be the answer to the problem, not a continuation of the problem. Makes you wonder if the back ups we choose are the problem or if the problem is really the way those back ups are managed...

 

Edit: My bad, 16-12-2 with a 2.82 GAA and a .897 save%. Link.

[VansTheMans]

I agree with PA, its frustrating as hell that TV can't get more ice time than he does. Ruff has to give him those opportunities.

 

 

I thought that Vanek played much better the last two games. He wasn't rewarded, but he was working harder in the offensive zone, and even threw a couple checks.

 

A couple things about Vanek: First, the guy has incredible vision - he finds ways to put the puck on his team mates' stick that even they don't anticipate. His linemates need to ALWAYS be expecting a pass when TV has the puck, and they haven't been. I can't count how many times TV has fed Staff near the net, and Staff can't come up with the puck.

 

I agree with everything bolded. Vanek needs a line change. Flip him and MacArthur. Vanek does have good offensive vision, and I'd love to see him and Connolly feed of each other. Both Connolly and Vanek have LETHAL shots. If the two of them came down on a rush, the goalie would be quaking in his skates. Either one could score a goal.

 

Connolly is a top tier playmaking talent with a laser shot; Vanek is top tier sniper with good offensive vision. Those two are destined to play with each other. The upside of them playing together is TREMENDOUS. It may take time to develop chemistry, but it needs to be allowed.

 

Also, Lindy desperately needs to shake up the PP. We are currently one of the worst PP's in the league. That sure doesn't add up when we have the leagues reigning king of PP goals (Vanek had 20PPG last season). This year, Lindy has opted to spread out the top tier talent across two PP lines, and has consistently kept Vanek and Connolly on different PP units. This obviously isn't working. The one time that Lindy did put Vanek and Connolly on the ice together for a PP was in overtime against the Leafs on Friday. We know how that one turned out. :thumbsup:

[LabattBlue]

I agree with everything bolded. Vanek needs a line change. Flip him and MacArthur. Vanek does have good offensive vision, and I'd love to see him and Connolly feed of each other. Both Connolly and Vanek have LETHAL shots. If the two of them came down on a rush, the goalie would be quaking in his skates. Either one could score a goal.

 

Connolly is a top tier playmaking talent with a laser shot; Vanek is top tier sniper with good offensive vision. Those two are destined to play with each other. The upside of them playing together is TREMENDOUS. It may take time to develop chemistry, but it needs to be allowed.

 

Also, Lindy desperately needs to shake up the PP. We are currently one of the worst PP's in the league. That sure doesn't add up when we have the leagues reigning king of PP goals (Vanek had 20PPG last season). This year, Lindy has opted to spread out the top tier talent across two PP lines, and has consistently kept Vanek and Connolly on different PP units. This obviously isn't working. The one time that Lindy did put Vanek and Connolly on the ice together for a PP was in overtime against the Leafs on Friday. We know how that one turned out. :thumbsup:

For a guy whose two highest goal totals ar 16 and 18, I don't think Connolly' shot would be considered "lethal" or "laser like". If anything, I've noticed his shot on the PP is always on the high side and he also seems to be one of the players who misses the net more often than not when presented wth a good scoring chance. I know Lindy made a comment about Connolly's shot the other day, but I don't know what that was based on.

[korab rules]

For a guy whose two highest goal totals ar 16 and 18, I don't think Connolly' shot would be considered "lethal" or "laser like". If anything, I've noticed his shot on the PP is always on the high side and he also seems to be one of the players who misses the net more often than not when presented wth a good scoring chance. I know Lindy made a comment about Connolly's shot the other day, but I don't know what that was based on.

 

 

I share your skepticism of Timmy (said with my best South Park inflection) as an elite finisher, but he is an elite distributor, and would score a hell of a lot more than 20 goals if he would stop making ill advised passes and shoot the freaking puck once in a while.

 

TV and Timmy might make sense, as TV has the ability to anticipate and corral those crazy passes Timmy attempts.

 

It was interesting to read the article on Roy passing to Vanek too much. I don't think he has been passing too much, I just think many of the passes have been of the low quality variety. If Roy was making the shots he has been taking, no one would be worried about how much he is passing.

[VansTheMans]

For a guy whose two highest goal totals ar 16 and 18, I don't think Connolly' shot would be considered "lethal" or "laser like". If anything, I've noticed his shot on the PP is always on the high side and he also seems to be one of the players who misses the net more often than not when presented wth a good scoring chance. I know Lindy made a comment about Connolly's shot the other day, but I don't know what that was based on.

 

I'd say that Timmy does have a lethal shot. The quickness with which he can accurately place the puck top shelf is impressive. He could realistically hit 30 goals in a year if he played a full season and shot the puck. After all, he did net 18 last season in 48 games.

 

 

It was interesting to read the article on Roy passing to Vanek too much. I don't think he has been passing too much, I just think many of the passes have been of the low quality variety.

 

I agree with this. Overall, Roy seems "off" to me this season. He didn't have a very good end to last season, and it seems that has carried over into this season. He seems almost spastic on the ice, constantly turning over the puck and making poor decisions. Anyone else feel like Roy hasn't been playing too well?

[PASabreFan]

I'd say that Timmy does have a lethal shot. The quickness with which he can accurately place the puck top shelf is impressive. He could realistically hit 30 goals in a year if he played a full season and shot the puck. After all, he did net 18 last season in 48 games.

 

 

 

 

I agree with this. Overall, Roy seems "off" to me this season. He didn't have a very good end to last season, and it seems that has carried over into this season. He seems almost spastic on the ice, constantly turning over the puck and making poor decisions. Anyone else feel like Roy hasn't been playing too well?

 

I think he's pressing. I noticed toward the end of last year it was almost like he wanted to put the team on his back and carry them. Remember when he started hopping around, literally? Spastic is a good word. Back to basics.