The Sabres define the word Mediocre.

[bottlecap]

Hello .500; it all seems too predictable.

 

Besides 3-4 players, the rest of the Sabres are a bunch of nobodies, has-beens, never-wases and never-will-bes.

I have no idea why the Sabres have hung on to their mediocre group for so long and committed so much money

to mediocre players. And the worst part: it seems that nothing will ever change.

[deluca67]

Hello .500; it all seems too predictable.

 

Besides 3-4 players, the rest of the Sabres are a bunch of nobodies, has-beens, never-wases and never-will-bes.

I have no idea why the Sabres have hung on to their mediocre group for so long and committed so much money

to mediocre players. And the worst part: it seems that nothing will ever change.

This is nothing new.

[Kristian]

Hello .500; it all seems too predictable.

 

Besides 3-4 players, the rest of the Sabres are a bunch of nobodies, has-beens, never-wases and never-will-bes.

I have no idea why the Sabres have hung on to their mediocre group for so long and committed so much money

to mediocre players. And the worst part: it seems that nothing will ever change.

 

Cause Darcy likes them.

[nfreeman]

This is quite a bit overstated, IMHO. Bottom line is that this is the same team that won the President's Trophy 2 years ago, minus Briere, Drury and Soupy. Now, those were 3 huge losses. And what really hurts is that the wounds were self-inflicted via a combination of reluctance to make expensive commitments (which they seem to have gotten over, but after the horses left the barn) and sheer incompetence. Even so, I think that with one or 2 dynamic leader/scorers added at forward, this team could be a contender again.

[Swedesessed]

This is quite a bit overstated, IMHO. Bottom line is that this is the same team that won the President's Trophy 2 years ago, minus Briere, Drury and Soupy. Now, those were 3 huge losses. And what really hurts is that the wounds were self-inflicted via a combination of reluctance to make expensive commitments (which they seem to have gotten over, but after the horses left the barn) and sheer incompetence. Even so, I think that with one or 2 dynamic leader/scorers added at forward, this team could be a contender again.

 

 

I agree.

 

And just another basic observation: If players like Max and Connolly would do what we thought they could do based on some past performances, I know for sure that would make the Sabres offense much more consistent and we would have a better record.

[carpandean]

This is quite a bit overstated, IMHO. Bottom line is that this is the same team that won the President's Trophy 2 years ago, minus Briere, Drury and Soupy. Now, those were 3 huge losses. And what really hurts is that the wounds were self-inflicted via a combination of reluctance to make expensive commitments (which they seem to have gotten over, but after the horses left the barn) and sheer incompetence. Even so, I think that with one or 2 dynamic leader/scorers added at forward, this team could be a contender again.

Don't forget Marty. He may have been traded at the deadline, but by that point, they had most of the points that they needed (Conklin played just 3 games and was 1-2-0, while Marty was 12-4-0.) He was too expensive to be a backup, but he was as good at being one as you could ask for (he went 5-1-0 when Miller was out for that small stretch.) Lalime is good, but I'd take Marty back if he somehow came cheaply.

 

Basically, the changes from that PT team to now, not including what happened to the league, were:

Briere --> Connolly --> Hecht

Drury --> Roy

MacArthur --> Hecht

Roy --> Gaustad

Gaustad --> Mair

Mair --> Kaleta

Campbell --> Sekera

Kalinin --> Rivet

Biron --> Lalime

 

Rivet for Kalinin was the biggest upgrade (when he's healthy.) Both Roy and Sekera could fill their slots, but will take more time to really fill them. Connolly could fill in for Briere, but he never plays. Hecht is not a top-line center, so that is by far the worst exchange. Gaustad/Mair for Roy/Gaustad is downgrade especially on the third line. Lalime for Biron is a slight downgrade.

 

However, it goes back to three things:

1) The league did change and they have been slow to adapt.

2) They replaced veterans with skilled youth, losing leadership (got some back with Rivet)

3) The center situation is still unacceptable. Mair, Gaustad, Roy, Hecht in place of Gaustad, Roy, Drury, Briere is a huge problem offensively. Counting on Connolly last year was, unfortunately, a bad gamble. Counting on him this year was just foolish.

 

 

Edit: forgot to mention, here our the records through 31 games for the past two seasons:

2007-08: 16-14-1 for 33 points

2008-09: 15-13-3 for 33 points

 

I know that the points are the same, but I feel comfortable saying that we have a worse record (note: both years had 3 OT wins.) We were basically 16-15 last season and are 15-16 this year.

[nfreeman]

Don't forget Marty. He may have been traded at the deadline, but by that point, they had most of the points that they needed (Conklin played just 3 games and was 1-2-0, while Marty was 12-4-0.) He was too expensive to be a backup, but he was as good at being one as you could ask for (he went 5-1-0 when Miller was out for that small stretch.) Lalime is good, but I'd take Marty back if he somehow came cheaply.

 

Basically, the changes from that PT team to now, not including what happened to the league, were:

Briere --> Connolly --> Hecht

Drury --> Roy

MacArthur --> Hecht

Roy --> Gaustad

Gaustad --> Mair

Mair --> Kaleta

Campbell --> Sekera

Kalinin --> Rivet

Biron --> Lalime

 

Rivet for Kalinin was the biggest upgrade (when he's healthy.) Both Roy and Sekera could fill their slots, but will take more time to really fill them. Connolly could fill in for Briere, but he never plays. Hecht is not a top-line center, so that is by far the worst exchange. Gaustad/Mair for Roy/Gaustad is downgrade especially on the third line. Lalime for Biron is a slight downgrade.

 

However, it goes back to three things:

1) The league did change and they have been slow to adapt.

2) They replaced veterans with skilled youth, losing leadership (got some back with Rivet)

3) The center situation is still unacceptable. Mair, Gaustad, Roy, Hecht in place of Gaustad, Roy, Drury, Briere is a huge problem offensively. Counting on Connolly last year was, unfortunately, a bad gamble. Counting on him this year was just foolish.

You are right -- Marty was a valuable piece also, although I wouldn't put his loss on the same level with the first three. Those 3 were veterans, leaders and highly skilled, productive players. (Soupy, whom everyone seems to overlook, is on pace for another 60-pt year -- pretty strong for a defenseman).

 

Also, although the younger players who are getting more time now are skilled, it's far from clear that they will ever match the skill and production that Drury (who had 37 goals for us 2 years ago), Briere (a 1+ ppg player and a highly productive playoff scorer) and Soupy had. Stafford? Maybe. MacArthur? He's got some talent but NFW will he score 30 in the NHL. Paille? His 19 goals last year are looking like a career high. So my point is that although they took most of our leadership, clutch scoring and mental toughness with them, they also took a ton of skill and production -- and there's been a dropoff with the new guys.

 

As for the center situation -- you are right. I'm just skeptical that they could have done anything about it within their budget, since I don't think anyone would have taken Connolly off of their hands.

[carpandean]

Also, although the younger players who are getting more time now are skilled, it's far from clear that they will ever match the skill and production that Drury (who had 37 goals for us 2 years ago), Briere (a 1+ ppg player and a highly productive playoff scorer) and Soupy had. Stafford? Maybe. MacArthur? He's got some talent but NFW will he score 30 in the NHL. Paille? His 19 goals last year are looking like a career high. So my point is that although they took most of our leadership, clutch scoring and mental toughness with them, they also took a ton of skill and production -- and there's been a dropoff with the new guys.

 

As for the center situation -- you are right. I'm just skeptical that they could have done anything about it within their budget, since I don't think anyone would have taken Connolly off of their hands.

Roy will and basically has matched Drury's production (Roy had 32G, 49A last year vs. 32G, 37A for Drury in 2006-07.) Connolly is over a point-per-game player when he plays, so he could have matched Briere's production, at least theoretically. The problems are that Connolly can't stay healthy and the guys filling in for their old spots aren't producing. However, the latter might be different if they had more offensive punch on the first two lines, which would push some of the talent back down to where it belongs.

 

As for Connolly, it would have been a very tough call, but there was the option of buying him out this summer, which would have cost a quarter of this year's salary for each of the two following seasons (saving half his salary total.) I understand hoping he could fill that spot, but they at least needed a better backup plan.

[R_Dudley]

This is quite a bit overstated, IMHO. Bottom line is that this is the same team that won the President's Trophy 2 years ago, minus Briere, Drury and Soupy. Now, those were 3 huge losses. And what really hurts is that the wounds were self-inflicted via a combination of reluctance to make expensive commitments (which they seem to have gotten over, but after the horses left the barn) and sheer incompetence. Even so, I think that with one or 2 dynamic leader/scorers added at forward, this team could be a contender again.

 

I really respect your posts and wish it was that but IMHO opinion it's just not that simple as 3 more players...

 

The real disappointment I have with this team is it's personality or lack thereof in specific. Where is the PASSION? Where's the heart and soul ? Where's the I hate losing ? Where's the only thing worse than losing is making excuses for losing ATTITUDE ? Where are the overachievers on this years team ?

 

I got the center ice package first time ever this year and I am watching more hockey than I ever have and I see allot of other teams with less talent but allot more caring and passion night in and out.

 

Hell yeah 2 or 3 more talented dynamic players will make us a better team but that by itself will never have us drinking from that Cup and thats what chaffs me about this team right now because I just don't see enough guys that want their actions to speak louder than their words or in this case excuses about trying to get too fancy instead of just coming with chin strap on and ready to play... <_<

[PASabreFan]

This is quite a bit overstated, IMHO. Bottom line is that this is the same team that won the President's Trophy 2 years ago, minus Briere, Drury and Soupy. Now, those were 3 huge losses. And what really hurts is that the wounds were self-inflicted via a combination of reluctance to make expensive commitments (which they seem to have gotten over, but after the horses left the barn) and sheer incompetence. Even so, I think that with one or 2 dynamic leader/scorers added at forward, this team could be a contender again.

 

Drury wanted to leave. That's been well established. Boyhood team and all that. Whatever angling he and his agent did at the beginning of 06-07, he was as good as gone. He was already Ranger when he made comments to the New York media during the playoffs.

 

Would you want to be paying Danny Briere eight million dollars a year right now? Would he be the league's leading scorer? Vanek might be, but it would be as an Oiler.

 

Grier wanted to leave too. McKee was toward the tail end of his career and the Sabres would have had to overpay him. The Sabres were up against the cap, thanks to Briere's big payday and couldn't afford Dumont. Players get leverage -- Campbell had hand and Darcy was gonna need it.

 

This is a recording.

[Kristian]

Hell yeah 2 or 3 more talented dynamic players will make us a better team but that by itself will never have us drinking from that Cup and thats what chaffs me about this team right now because I just don't see enough guys that want their actions to speak louder than their words or in this case excuses about trying to get too fancy instead of just coming with chin strap on and ready to play... <_<

 

Problem is, you can't teach that.

 

You either got it, or you don't, and Darcy has drafted players without it for as long as I can remember.

 

Guys like Roy, Pominville, Kotalik, "The Skill" (when blessed with "The Health") are more than capable of becoming good "supporting cast" players on teams that recognize the need for leadership and workhorses as well as skill.

 

Darcy does not recognize grit as "hard work", nor does he understand the value of veteran presence on the ice.

 

I'm sure he's scratching his head more than anyone right now, wondering why this group of players, having played together for so long both in the minors and with the big club, can't get it together.

[nfreeman]

I really respect your posts and wish it was that but IMHO opinion it's just not that simple as 3 more players...

 

The real disappointment I have with this team is it's personality or lack thereof in specific. Where is the PASSION? Where's the heart and soul ? Where's the I hate losing ? Where's the only thing worse than losing is making excuses for losing ATTITUDE ? Where are the overachievers on this years team ?

 

I got the center ice package first time ever this year and I am watching more hockey than I ever have and I see allot of other teams with less talent but allot more caring and passion night in and out.

 

Hell yeah 2 or 3 more talented dynamic players will make us a better team but that by itself will never have us drinking from that Cup and thats what chaffs me about this team right now because I just don't see enough guys that want their actions to speak louder than their words or in this case excuses about trying to get too fancy instead of just coming with chin strap on and ready to play... <_<

Thanks for the kind words and I completely agree about the need for passion and determination to win. That's exactly what I'm referring to when I say this team needs dynamic leaders. Drury didn't burn outwardly like a Brenden Morrow, but he was intense and determined to win and the team followed him. I know plenty of posters here weren't crazy about Briere, but he went to the net hard, he paid the price, and he delivered in crunch time. That's what left when those guys left and that's what this team is still missing.

 

Drury wanted to leave. That's been well established. Boyhood team and all that. Whatever angling he and his agent did at the beginning of 06-07, he was as good as gone. He was already Ranger when he made comments to the New York media during the playoffs.

 

Would you want to be paying Danny Briere eight million dollars a year right now? Would he be the league's leading scorer? Vanek might be, but it would be as an Oiler.

 

Grier wanted to leave too. McKee was toward the tail end of his career and the Sabres would have had to overpay him. The Sabres were up against the cap, thanks to Briere's big payday and couldn't afford Dumont. Players get leverage -- Campbell had hand and Darcy was gonna need it.

 

This is a recording.

Not only a recording, but an obtuse one at that. I'm not going to rehash everything. We all know that the debacle could have been avoided.

 

Problem is, you can't teach that.

 

You either got it, or you don't, and Darcy has drafted players without it for as long as I can remember.

 

Guys like Roy, Pominville, Kotalik, "The Skill" (when blessed with "The Health") are more than capable of becoming good "supporting cast" players on teams that recognize the need for leadership and workhorses as well as skill.

 

Darcy does not recognize grit as "hard work", nor does he understand the value of veteran presence on the ice. When Darcy talks of leadership, he means guys like Vanek, Miller and Roy

 

I'm sure he's scratching his head more than anyone right now, wondering why this group of players, having played together for so long both in the minors and with the big club, can't get it together.

Darcy knows what we need. He worked out a deal with Drury and then got the rug pulled out from under him by TG. He didn't extend Kotalik for leadership -- he did so because he's a pretty consistent 20-goal scorer, and Kotalik's salary is consistent with that level of production. He said over the summer that we needed leadership, and that Rivet was brought in for that purpose. There's no way of knowing, but I think Darcy would gladly have brought in another tough veteran if we'd had any room in our budget. Darcy is the guy who traded for Gilmour, Drury, Dumont, Briere, Grier, etc.

 

We've been a bit unlucky with Rivet's injuries. Let's see how it goes when he's back 100%. Let's also see what they do next summer when we have a bit of flexibility in the budget due to contracts expiring (and hopefully unloading Tallinder).

[PASabreFan]

Not only a recording, but an obtuse one at that. I'm not going to rehash everything. We all know that the debacle could have been avoided.

 

Right. If only you were GM, we'd still have Peca, Hasek, Drury, Briere, Biron, Grier, McKee, Dumont, Campbell and Christian Ruuttu.

[Kristian]

Darcy knows what we need. He worked out a deal with Drury and then got the rug pulled out from under him by TG. He didn't extend Kotalik for leadership -- he did so because he's a pretty consistent 20-goal scorer, and Kotalik's salary is consistent with that level of production. He said over the summer that we needed leadership, and that Rivet was brought in for that purpose. There's no way of knowing, but I think Darcy would gladly have brought in another tough veteran if we'd had any room in our budget. Darcy is the guy who traded for Gilmour, Drury, Dumont, Briere, Grier, etc.

 

Even if that were true, and I'm not saying that it isn't only that we don't really know, there's still no excuse for not getting Max off the books before the season.

 

You can't seriously tell me there wasn't a GM out there willing to give up a 4th rounder or two for someone who's only 2 seasons away from 70+ points, Kevin Lowe is still around last I checked. That's 3.5 mill. right there.

 

It's not about getting "value" for Max. You can't get value for nothing, which is what Max is worth now. It's about admitting a mistake, and getting him off the books ASAP.

 

I realise we're stuck with Connolly, and I never bought the story that we're without a 2nd line center because Connolly was supposed to fill that spot - We're without a 2nd line center because our budget is spent. There.

 

But dumping Max, or sending him back to Russia would've cleared some cash to bring in a veteran forward, and Darcy still hanging onto this disaster of a "player" is the reason we're not bringing anyone in. Not because someone told him he couldn't. I'm not a cap expert, but I feel pretty sure that even if his 3.5 mill. would've counted against the cap should he have gone to Russia, that we wouldn't actually have to pay him, and since that's what it's all about - What we're paying - the problem is solved.

 

That said, we don't need a star forward, I'd be more than happy with someone with a mean streak who can win draws, has some wheels and the will to play 100% every shift. He doesn't need to score 20 a year.

Bring in someone like that, and you'll see much more open ice for guys like Roy, Pommer and Kotalik, and I feel certain we'd be in 4th or 5th in the conference rather than struggling for 8th.

 

Also, as it's been mentioned before - Hecht's contract is ridiculous.

[nfreeman]

Right. If only you were GM, we'd still have Peca, Hasek, Drury, Briere, Biron, Grier, McKee, Dumont, Campbell and Christian Ruuttu.

Hey, I'm a Darcy supporter. I lay more blame for the debacle at TG's doorstep than at Darcy's. But you, me and everyone else knows that your point about only being able to keep Briere and Soupy at the numbers they ultimately signed UFA deals for is spin to the point of obtuseness. And while we may never know whether Drury would have signed with the Sabres had they given him the papers within 24 hours of reaching verbal agreement in the fall of 2006 (like a normal organ-eye-zation would have done), I think he would've and in any case they certainly should have busted their butts in the attempt to close quickly.

 

Even if that were true, and I'm not saying that it isn't only that we don't really know, there's still no excuse for not getting Max off the books before the season.

 

You can't seriously tell me there wasn't a GM out there willing to give up a 4th rounder or two for someone who's only 2 seasons away from 70+ points, Kevin Lowe is still around last I checked. That's 3.5 mill. right there.

 

It's not about getting "value" for Max. You can't get value for nothing, which is what Max is worth now. It's about admitting a mistake, and getting him off the books ASAP.

 

I realise we're stuck with Connolly, and I never bought the story that we're without a 2nd line center because Connolly was supposed to fill that spot - We're without a 2nd line center because our budget is spent. There.

 

But dumping Max, or sending him back to Russia would've cleared some cash to bring in a veteran forward, and Darcy still hanging onto this disaster of a "player" is the reason we're not bringing anyone in. Not because someone told him he couldn't. I'm not a cap expert, but I feel pretty sure that even if his 3.5 mill. would've counted against the cap should he have gone to Russia, that we wouldn't actually have to pay him, and since that's what it's all about - What we're paying - the problem is solved.

 

That said, we don't need a star forward, I'd be more than happy with someone with a mean streak who can win draws, has some wheels and the will to play 100% every shift. He doesn't need to score 20 a year.

Bring in someone like that, and you'll see much more open ice for guys like Roy, Pommer and Kotalik, and I feel certain we'd be in 4th or 5th in the conference rather than struggling for 8th.

 

Also, as it's been mentioned before - Hecht's contract is ridiculous.

I can't disagree with any of this.

[PASabreFan]

Hey, I'm a Darcy supporter. I lay more blame for the debacle at TG's doorstep than at Darcy's. But you, me and everyone else knows that your point about only being able to keep Briere and Soupy at the numbers they ultimately signed UFA deals for is spin to the point of obtuseness. And while we may never know whether Drury would have signed with the Sabres had they given him the papers within 24 hours of reaching verbal agreement in the fall of 2006 (like a normal organ-eye-zation would have done), I think he would've and in any case they certainly should have busted their butts in the attempt to close quickly.

 

Are you saying I am being deliberately obtuse? Is that your angle? Ho ho!

 

Implicit in your opinion is a sort of naive way of viewing professional athletes. You seem to think they want to do what's in the best interest of their beloved Buffalo. Baloney. They're looking out for number one. They have a couple of chances in their career to cash in, and they did. Again, for the 500th time, why would Briere or Campbell NOT have played the free agent market? Why sign for millions less? The risk of injury is the only thing I can think of. Loving where they're at? Playing in Buffalo for Lindy Ruff? Please.

[nfreeman]

Are you saying I am being deliberately obtuse? Is that your angle? Ho ho!

 

Implicit in your opinion is a sort of naive way of viewing professional athletes. You seem to think they want to do what's in the best interest of their beloved Buffalo. Baloney. They're looking out for number one. They have a couple of chances in their career to cash in, and they did. Again, for the 500th time, why would Briere or Campbell NOT have played the free agent market? Why sign for millions less? The risk of injury is the only thing I can think of. Loving where they're at? Playing in Buffalo for Lindy Ruff? Please.

Of course -- no disagreement here. But you can look out for #1 and still re-sign prior to UFA. And the number of guys around the NHL (and, at least recently, in Buffalo) re-signing prior to testing UFA far exceeds the number that go to UFA. The reason why Briere and Soupy would have re-signed prior to UFA is the same reason that Thornton, Datsyuk, Alfie, Heatley, Spezza, LeCavelier, etc. (and, locally, Pommer and Miller) did so -- not for the betterment of beloved Buffalo, but for long-term security, bird in the hand, etc.

 

Now, those reasons diminish in importance with every day that elapses in that final year of a player's contract, which is why I've always thought that Bucky was FOS when he claimed that Briere would've resigned at 5x5 after January 1 of his final year. But in the star-crossed summer of 2006, i.e. a full year prior to UFA, I think Briere and Drury could've been extended, and the same goes for Soupy in the summer of 2007.

[tom webster]

Are you saying I am being deliberately obtuse? Is that your angle? Ho ho!

 

Implicit in your opinion is a sort of naive way of viewing professional athletes. You seem to think they want to do what's in the best interest of their beloved Buffalo. Baloney. They're looking out for number one. They have a couple of chances in their career to cash in, and they did. Again, for the 500th time, why would Briere or Campbell NOT have played the free agent market? Why sign for millions less? The risk of injury is the only thing I can think of. Loving where they're at? Playing in Buffalo for Lindy Ruff? Please.

 

 

And for the 501st time, why do other organizations get their top players to sign for below market value???