PerreaultForever

I can live with that view as a meeting ground, but also see the paragraph above.

I'm not going to argue the goalies. We probably would have won a few more games with healthier goalies but I don't think that's as big of a factor as you do. With Tuch, that's the leadership, culture change moment. You can't use him as an injury argument since he was in rehab when we got him. Mitts I do not see as a factor this year. You can blame the injury for setting him back perhaps, but I think he's been a disappointment. I had hoped for more based on the end of last year. Might still come, but right now he's not a big part of us winning. Joker and VO are valid, but now we're just down to a few guys, like most teams, and so depth is in question, but really not number of injuries imo. There's one other side to this you're not considering. Injuries actually opened the door for some players and for Granato to try new things. If Miller is healthy all year maybe Fitz never gets a shot and doesn't get to show them his character and grit (which helps the team and the culture). maybe they don't bring Samuelsson along as fast as they did? maybe Krebs spends the whole season in Rochester if Mitts isn't hurt? next man up became next man up and it helped the team bond. So in some ways, I think it may have helped and in the end made us better.

I don't think it's useful to go over every single piece of this argument but look at that list above. The stats are skewed by things like this. The first 4 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. Quinn really doesn't matter either. He's not here now. Only Samuelsson factors in here and he didn't start the season in Buffalo. Tuch factors into the stats as well but we knew he was recovering when we made the trade so he doesn't really factor in either in terms of "we were injured". I acknowledged earlier that the goalies do count, even though KA put us in that scenario. The idea that an old guy like Anderson could carry a heavy season load was dumb and/or desperate. But yes, it did matter, I agree on that. Mitts maybe, but I'm personally still not sold on him being a huge factor, nor do I see VO as a huge issue either. Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Cozens, all healthy. Okposo healthiest he's been in ages. Key pieces all in play. The injury argument seems to imply that we are good enough, even were good enough, to compete, just bad luck of injuries held us back and I just don't see the team or their play that way. Players developed, things changed, attitudes changed, there was a lot to it. Ultimately I guess we will disagree forever since I firmly believe it's culture change (FIANALLY!!!!) that has led to this turnaround, and you believe it was already there and simply held back by injuries. Everything factors in obviously, but that's the fundamental difference. These things take time.

Well at the right price you can argue for almost anyone, but his price will be high. I'd rather let Philly over pay him and laugh at them getting worse and worse. After so many years I think we finally have the beginning of a solid team first culture that we haven't had since the glory days and I want to keep building around that young core and their bonds. My adds would all be good value complimentary pieces and role players, not central pieces or "stars". I truly believe Cozens will break out next season like Tage did this year (not necessarily in big scoring numbers but in terms of general play) and we will already have the centers we need on the roster. Copp would take us up a notch faster, but even he isn't essential to the plan and I wouldn't overpay him too much either.

I totally agree with you on Kreuger having a set idea and trying to force players to fit into the slots he saw for them and expecting them to do exactly what he said. Absolutely. Skinner's a skilled player but probably our least disciplined and hardest to coach and his fall from grace is the extreme example of that square pegs in round holes thing you're talking about. I won't buy into the injury thing though. All teams get injuries, and when you look at main players or key contributors we didn't have that huge disparity compared to other teams. more than average maybe, but many key guys have played all or most of the year. If it's a real turnaround, and I'm not fully convinced it is, just optimistic that it might be, then you're left with several changes and it'll be debated forever which meant the most. Some will say the coaching but my stance for years has been the problem was the culture, Sam and Jack in their tandem glory, and the general lack of team leadership. Subtraction has led to a brighter future and so I finally got my wish, something that many disagreed with and even mocked me for when I proposed it over 2 years ago. If people still don't want to believe that removal was the key they can, and they can give all the credit to Granato or whoever, but I feel vindicated all the same. the future is brighter now. lot's of luck vegas.

I agree overall about BPA but you have to keep in mind a lot of times they have several players closely ranked and the choice as to which one is "better" isn't obvious or clear so when that happens maybe you pick the need from that closely rated group. McAvoy was my choice, but a lot of teams didn't think so, not just us. We of course blew it royally and ironically Tage was 26th in that draft and now would be top 10 if not higher. Who knew?

See, I'm against that strategy. He's too expensive and takes us away from this group think young core dynamic he have going.

Saw part of the LA game. Quick was in vintage form. He keeps that going and they might stay ahead after all. Need Dallas to win their game in hand and then Vegas is 6 out of a wild card and 5 out of the division.

To the first paragraph, I'm not sure you can say it was finally about having enough legit NHLers as we added Krebs Tuch and Muel but we ditched Sam Jack and Risto so that's 3 for 3. There are issues with the 3 ditched, but you can't say they're not legit NHLers. (Flyer fans might disagree :)) To the second, that's interesting to me because I think it's the other way around. These young guys come in guns a blazing and have all kinds of offensive skills, it's the defense they have to learn and all the little things that go with that and are necessary for solid team D are harder to learn. Some of them don't like doing it, and some of them have simply never had to, but how well they learn determines what they will or won't ultimately become. So idk, there's no question the train seems to be back on the tracks and it's kind of refreshing that we're disagreeing on who gets more of the credit rather than who is to blame. That in and of itself is positive.

Well, to the RHD, they are the best available in free agency. Neither is perfect, I agree, but they would substantially upgrade what we have on the right side now, and add more team toughness. Good compliments to our speedier young puck movers. Hopefully at the same time we draft and develop RHDs and in 3 years we are moving on from both. If we don't upgrade the right side now, it'll take longer to get playoff competitive. Only other solution is trading for a better RHD but that means giving up assets, while this is just money and cap space which we have tons of. Copp is a different kind of player and one we lack. Again, he is the best option available in free agency. Not dumping Mitts by the side of the road, but if we are to trade for a goalie, I see him as potentially expendable. Least valuable of the young centers we have. Krebs seems to have more potential imo. Lastly Girgensens, just thinking it's likely his last year here anyway, so perhaps a trade while you can and go younger and/or add toughness. Nothing against the guy, just don't see him in the long term plans and am trying to think ahead.

Definitely better hair.

This. My dream scenario is we go all in and sign Copp, Manson and Gudrandson and trade for a decent vet goalie (willing to part with Mitts if we sign Copp). That gives us a formidable starting D Joker-Dahlin Manson-Power Gudrandson-Samuelsson (Fitz and possibly Bryson as depth players) Forward lines along the mix of: Skinner-Thompson-Tuch Asplund-Krebs-VO Peterka-Cozens-Quinn Girgensens-Copp-Okposo possible additional add of DesLauriers and/or Lazar which would also allow for a Girgensens trade. Goalie, UPL and let's say Talbot if maybe they re-sign Fleury and we make some sort of deal around Talbot and Mitts. other goalies equally possible. we do that, and we are in the playoff race guaranteed.

No, I disagree on this totally. Yes, we played a loosey goosey open style after Kreuger got fired and won a few games when nobody took us seriously but the team was still a shambles. We were not good at the beginning of the year at all either. Everybody blamed goaltending and then injuries, but that feel that the team was a real hockey team only came together this season and not that long ago. I'm not saying Granato doesn't have a hand in that too, and the offensive side of the team's game is definitely improved, but we're not a real threat just yet. My hope is that Granato believes in getting the O going first and then will work on improving the D, but as I often say, with this team after this decade I only believe it when I see it.

Did you watch it? Any of it? If you had, maybe instead of the smug snipe you'd have seen good defensive hockey and realized what I'm talking about. It was, as I expected, a very solid team defense first game. If you can't see the difference between that game and a usual Sabres game, well then I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand hockey at all.

imo you can't have too many guys like this in the system. Seems to be the type of player who will succeed, just a question of how long it takes in terms of development.

Yes, but is it Granato's coaching, that's the issue. Far more of this imo, is the arrival of Tuch and the accompanying change in attitude. Thompson was pretty good beginning of the year, Thompson was great after pairing him with Tuch. Skinner started meh but since Tuch's arrival he's become the old Skinner again. etc etc etc EVERYTHING changed with the Eichel trade. If you want a pivotal moment, that's the moment, and not Granato's hiring. Aside from the goaltending, which is a valid argument, I don't see the injuries as that huge of a factor unless you also count Tuch in that. the main contributors have been mostly healthy (Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Okposo and so on). Mitts at this point isn't a big factor on this team. maybe he will be maybe not. The injured have been for the most part not essential pieces.

Watch the Boston St. Louis game tonight. Unless it's an anomaly you should see a perfect example of what that means on both sides of it.

I'm not convinced Granato is the great coach many think he is. When this team learns to play team defense I might change my mind, not before. The two big names we discussed when the job was open, Boudreau and Gallant, have both done pretty darn good with their teams and not hiring one of them might still be a mistake. (Don't know if Gallant would have considered it, but the talk was Boudreau was very interested) In many ways it's all relative, and almost anybody with any level of competence would have looked better than Kreuger but right now it's more about the young talent emerging than the coaching imo. Everything on the defensive side, and face offs, is all still pretty bad. Thompson to center is the one genius move that he will get credit for but idk was it genius or just luck because at the time we basically had no one to play a top center role so maybe it was just try anything and this one worked. get us in the playoffs next year, or at least competing for them in the last week like Vancouver is this year and I will give him the accolades then. Until then, undecided.

Looking at the Sabres and Vegas we can see the failure of building around superstars. Vegas had that early jump with the expansion draft deals and had a solid working class or lunch bucket team with a good goalie and a good coach. Rather than stick with that and add talent little by little from the draft, inserting it into that culture, they got greedy and impatient and started moving in the "stars" and they lost their unity and their chemistry. Max has always been a little lazy and off and on again or when he feels like it. Jack is a diva. He's always relished the glory but never the work or the less glamourous stuff that leads to winning. Not a team guy. More likely to blame others around him than digging down himself. Other players see that attitude and start to say "okay hotshot, you do it". It leads to other laziness, quitting, individual rather than team play and so on. Lack of leadership and a poor locker room culture. Not all "stars" are like that, and we have some young guys now with better attitudes so hopefully we will stay the course and not swap it out for a quick fix with the wrong added players. Vegas? May they crash and burn.

and all that while cheating on the cap. This is too good.

Okay, definite signs of maturity there. Definite positives. Not sure I see all that as leadership, but I see what you mean.

I don't think that's true at all. First, I don't think it's about an open goalie job being there, it's about the team turning it around and investing in winning now. We start winning and competing and the culture is a positive one, he hears good things from Power or other people he knows, and then he will want to be part of it. That's the issue, not coming to a basement dweller and being stuck until his UFA status kicks in. All these guys have confidence in their abilities and think they can win a job in direct competition, and if it's a vet they respect they'll be glad for the opportunity to understudy. Also, signing that vet for 5 years is fine as long as you don't give him a no movement clause. Too many good kids in the system, trade him away in 2-3 years, or trade one of the kids (less appealing to me). You guys just aren't used to the idea of a team having too many good prospects. Bottom line, start winning and they all will want to come. That's all it'll take.

and it's a fantasy to think Marner will do anything in the playoffs.

Is he? I'm not saying he isn't a leader, just that I haven't seen anything to indicate that. Tuch clearly is, Kyle is, Dahlin might be, Cozens and Krebs might be. Tage looks like he's having fun, smiling more, but why do you say he's a leader? As for the ROR comparative, completely different types of players so no comparison. Right now however I'd rather have Tage on the team than Eichel (or Sam) but also, it's just one season. I'm not going to get pessimistic, but I'm not ready to raise him up to comparisons with Conn Smyth winners either. Not yet. I will say this though, I think he's better than Marner or Nylander and all their lofty media accolades.

I have no doubts about Power being good, very good, but there will be debates on the best methods of development. I guess I'm just a little iffy on the usual Sabre approach with D men. Myers, Risto, given too much too fast and set back imo. Risto developed bad habits he's stuck with for his career. Dahlin's development a little iffy for me too. I think it was too much early, but fortunately he's good enough and responsive enough to coaching that he's come out of it and is becoming more complete. Thinking it could have been quicker however if it started earlier, and I still see some things he does that could become bad habits as well. Myself, I'd rather have Power paired with a veteran D man the way Boston put McAvoy with Chara and work him in step by step, but I'm obviously not going to get that so we shall see. As for Granato as a coach, definitely bringing out the offensive side in numerous players, still not convinced he can teach them a proper defensive system. maybe that too is coming later in his plan. Have to hope so.