Sabresince70

Getting ready to watch pregame, and granddaughter asks if she can watch Frozen on the big TV. ........Now I am digging for those headphones so I don't have to hear the crying "Grandpa won't watch frozen..." She'll get over it - her mother would rather watch the game, too!

If the bag did contain a piece of clothing (hers) or another item of hers, and it was determined that it held no value in evidence, I could see it being returned to her. That would fit with her name on the label, the bar code for it being entered into the property/evidence room (the last entry would be "returned to owner") and if something was "missing" from the label (returned to owner) it would fit without any LE misconduct (and would also allow the DA to show the evidence was accounted for (that bag would have its own number - they would know exactly what was contained inside). We wouldn't give the item back in the bag, but I could see it happening. Not sure that the nurse's name would have been on it, but maybe an ear ring or like item would have been removed, by a nurse, in which case it, too, would fit. Seemed like a large bag for that, but hard to size the picture, and you never know what bags they had available.

Ok, next take on the bag - the side shown in that links photo looks like it has the bar code on it. When we "enter" an item, that item gets a number, it is not the same as the case or incident number. Our property/evidence room officer generates a bar code sticker that is then attached to the bag (For us this is ONLY done after any analysis is done, and USUALLY only when it is now being stored for trial / final disposition. That bar code (in our dept.) is only to be able to locate it in the property room. Believe numbers can get very confusing. Ex. When a call is dispatched (go to hospital, sex assault complaint..... that generates a cad (call) number ex. 15-0011881 When the officer begins investigation (once he knows he is taking a report) it gets a case number (it won't be the same) ex. AB-15-18882 Each item will be given a number (usually case number followed by a letter, but not always) ex. AB-15-18882A each item, when given to the property room, receives a property location number. Completely different and bar coded. Think of it like the bar codes on a library book. It can be removed, but it will be electronically tracked at all times. (And I continue to stress, that is for my department, not nec. in NY) What I see on that bag looks like our location number. it could well be a lab label, too. Just not the way it would look here. (lab label would be on a new bag w/ chain of custody label) Given time and the ambition to do so, anyone could "forge" the label - but I swear he said the bag had the nurse's signature/initials on it. Would like to see the other side of that bag....

Thanks, but it wasn't planned. All is good though.

Right now I would be very uncomfortable being one of the officers / techs who had custody of the evidence. Imagine being on the stand and asked how that bag was left out of the case box/file and got out of the evidence room. Has there been anymore said on how the vics lawyer "confirmed" that it was THE bag? Aside from the nurses initials, anyone could get a blank bag and fill in the info. And, if the nurses initials were the only ones on the bag, it would imply (in my county) that it was discarded before getting to the lab. If any one here can tell me how to upload a pic from my files, I can blow up a pic of a bag and explain better how the signatures would be. I can only figure out how to use an image from the web (computers are not my strong point) And Taro, the daughter that was with me now has a daughter of her own (feeling old).

You are one of the lawyers, though, right? I do read these often, but I admit to not always being able to remember who is who. The only member I ever met was Taro and that was long ago.

No problem with giving what I know, glad I can contribute, just please, everyone remember I can only tell you what WE do. Every state, and every county, municipality, are different. We (Alburtis / every municipal dept. in Lehigh County) all use the State Police lab (even Allentown, which is 3rd largest city in our state). Any rape kit collected for an incident in my borough, would be done at the neighboring township's hospital -we don't have one. Maybe because so many different agencies get involved, we are a little more worried about the process. Everyone talks about cameras mounted in police cars - ours even record the cabin of the car so transports are recorded. Every transmission from our dispatch (which is county wide) ends with the time. Again, eleven, and the other lawyers here may have much better info for how Erie County in NY works, but I really like having all my reports backed with something when it comes time for hearings/trials. (Hard to argue that you didn't roll a stop sign when I can bring a dvd with the whole incident on it to court). Hard to say it was 20 minutes before x arrived when the times are all stamped on the cad.

Just watched the first 5 minutes or so of the press conf. I can only guess that they placed the entire kit inside a bag (we seal the box, but I guess it is their procedure to bag it?). I am sure there is more than one manufacturer of the kits, so it could be the bag is then sealed. Largest concern I have from the press conf. - the "bag had been RIPPED open" - Never, never does a bag get "ripped" open. They even have lines devoted to show exactly where to cut the bag (does not disturb writing - think of how plastic bags with frozen food distort when you rip them). I just never heard of someone "ripping" an evidence bag. And how the bag is not considered important after it has been emptied makes no sense. It contains the nurse's init. to show chain of custody. Without that bag remaining in custody, I can't imagine its contents being accepted. If they (the officer that collected from the nurse) had to drive it to the lab, he would need to be able to show from point A to point B, and probably even account for time and miles .As small as my department is (there are only ten of us on the force) we treat evidence as we would a person in custody - we call mileage in to dispatch, we get times, the transport itself would either have its own cad number or would be a continuation from the original call. If the bag is picked up by someone from the lab they would need it, I hope, to show chain. I could accept (not condone - but believe) someone dropped off a bag w/ vics name on it. (maybe someone saying "you have no evidence"....but, Someone dropping off the ACTUAL bag, unbelievable. And not able to be defended. The lawyer says it is confirmed to be the actual bag - this is really disturbing. I know all departments are different, and I have no idea what their SOP says, but really having a hard time understanding how THE bag could be let out of evidence. And I would think anyone having access to the bag would be known and accounted for as well.

Maybe I am speaking as a father who spoils his children, but I wouldn't be surprised if the songs came from asking each kid for a suggestion (Pegula's). And honestly, they payed for the team, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Rather they be involved in a goal song - and I still think it should just be the Sabre Dance- than true hockey-related decisions. I would probable let them help with the menus in the snack concessions and things like that, too.

You wouldn't have multiple items in a bag. The "kit" is unique in that way (and yes, everything in the box is labeled and in its own container).

Thanks - does this mean that Erie County is now primary as well? Here, it would be PSP lab, Lehigh County detectives primary. Borough secondary. (In Allentown city limits, they would be primary and county detectives would not be involved (Allentown population is 120,000 or so, borough is about 3,000)

If, somehow, that bag truly had evidence in it at anytime, I would be concerned. But a bag with just the victim's name on it, could be explained away in many ways. (Working midnights, it is common to begin filling out the bag, getting the date wrong, incident numbers can be wrong, misspelled names, those bags become "garbage bags" usually). I just can't see how it would end up at the mother's door. And, if you need to trash a bag, you should scribble out all info on it. Just like shredding any duplicate documents etc... that might contain names, ssn, etc... Oh, I have been meaning to ask, which department is actually handling the case? Hamburg, Buffalo, NY State police, or an Erie County investigation? I can't imagine Hamburg having its own lab. Would they use State Police or does Buffalo have a lab? Does Hamburg have its own detective unit/ sex crime investigators, or do they use county detectives? The more departments involved the more problems that can arise.

By the way - it was the ONLY homicide ever recorded in our Borough in our 100 years. (We are kinda proud of our low violent crime numbers)

It does get messy, but when it gets to the lab/ final destination it is hung to dry. If it is something that is saturated, and "fresh" in our department the lab is going to come out and collect anyway - they have there own rules. We had a double homicide a few years back, nothing in the house was collected by us. rags that were found outside the house, that had been used to wipe off hands/knives, was. They went in paper. All clothing that might have "fluids" would be placed in paper. It also was explained that it is less likely to smear on other parts of the item. We take photos and show where stains/fluid are, then we try to fold (if needed) so that the stain doesn't touch anything else. Then place in bag(paper). The fluid dries without touching another part of the clothing (in theory, anyway) better.

Glad to have something to offer - wish it could all be about the sport though. I am sure the lawyers on here from NY can provide more specific info on NY procedure. It is different everywhere I suppose. I think having a bag (and I confess I have not seen the lawyers statement in full), is a bit disturbing. Anyone can easily get a bag (they are available on line and can be purchased without LE ID), but I believe it would be very unlikely that someone not involved in LE in some way to have one. (That being said, my daughter has an evidence tube that she uses for a pen case.....

Does anyone know who takes custody of kit in Erie county? For instance, If I take a complainant to the hospital (or meet one there), the nurse (specifically certified to obtain the evidence) completes the kit, signs it and gives it to me. Our SOP states I must give it to PSP (Penn. State Police) to go to their crime lab (there would now be three names on the box). If it ever comes back to court, the original box (and marked by who opened it, would now be part of the "evidence". If something that contained evidence was ever discarded, then yes, someone would have screwed up. Think of it this way - you should be able to lay the evidence and its containers out and create a time line of who had it and who opened it, from collection to trial. (Our department requires that every signature is followed by date/time and initialed by the receiver and giver. So the victim's initials would be with the nurses signature. The nurse with the first officer's, and so on... An empty bag with nothing but a name on it would be real easy to "forge" . I have a couple dozen of each bag in my patrol bag now. Getting someone elses signature and initials on it, not so easy. We keep the entire box. (I can't speak for NY). The way it was taught at our academy was simple - once evidence is collected EVERYTHING in the container (there are tubes for needles, envelopes for items, etc...) and the CONTAINER ITSELF is now evidence.

this is basically the same as we use in PA, the box is completely sealed with tape. Then the same process is followed.

Evidence "bag" - paper, sealed with evidence tape (person collecting signs) chain of evidence is kept ON BAG. Bag would need to be KEPT (or at least should be kept) as record, even if items placed in new container. (plastic is usually used for "dry" items, paper for wet, so that mold, and changes to evidence does not occur - we are told blood, etc... never goes in plastic. A "rape kit " is....

Signed. If nothing else, maybe it could have an effect on a future third?

I know others had mentioned Franson as a "top 4" from the Murray interview, but I swear he said "four or five" which still frees up Pysyk to the left side of the second pairing (If Gorges is on first) maybe keep the kids together - Ritso and Pysyk? Gores - Bogo Pysyk - Ritso Weber - Franson (Or maybe one of the other FAs has played the left side prev. and Weber is #7)

Great book!

Unless he is working for the department, he would have no more "arrest" authority than any citizen. LEOSA allows police to carry anywhere in the U.S., but any officer that believes carrying a gun gives him "authority" needs to find other employment. (And New York's round restrictions still gives me headaches, last I heard, it had to be my duty weapon or else restricted round laws are enforced. Kinda crazy)

Larger departments in this area have "extra jobs" that can be hired out. Bars, banks, almost any business, even colleges, hire police , who work in full uniform, at a special rate. Example, $47/hr per officer. The officer makes $32/hr, the department takes the other $15 for insurance, etc. It saves the private employer (bank, bar...) from paying an OT rate, covers the costs that the dept. has, and gives officers a chance to make extra $. Usually the departments do not allow officers to work in a security capacity outside. The smaller departments don't have the "extra jobs" and do allow officers to "freelance". Many work as drivers for people going to airports, etc. Really not uncommon for police to have two or more jobs. As to his supporting Kane, I believe the article says that they (or their families) were friends. I haven't seen anything yet that would indicate he had anything to offer as to what happened inside the house. I am under the impression that he left after dropping them off.

That no charges have been filed within a couple weeks of the incident is not indicative of not having evidence/information. It can take a very long time to get all information and evidence ready to seek indictment in cases. DNA can take a very long time. Maybe the lawyer members can give a better idea of the time it takes for them to prepare a case for grand jury etc., but from an investigative angle, when your suspect is not going anywhere, you don't need to rush, much better to be accurate.

Does anyone else look at the Lehner deal as being something we can use to learn about GMTM in many ways? If Lehner truly ends up being elite (whatever "elite" means to you) - GMTM shows great evaluation skills. If Lehner is "good enough for 2 years, and at that point either one of our prospects becomes "elite" and GMTM lets Lehner go and accepts that, he shows that he is willing to accept change and not strictly rely on one of "his boys". If Lehner bombs from the start, and GMTM doesn't hesitate to correct the mistake, is he showing that he will own up to his decisions? It seems everyone who had problems with Darcy were upset not just because of mistakes, but because we seem to have had to live with those mistakes for so long. I am anxious to see how GMTM does when something doesn't work (The ROR trade can be looked at the same way). I don't expect him to be perfect, I just hope he can own up to and attempt to fix things when they don't work out. And I am hoping this works out.