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Again with the facts….

Y'all are aware that the Sabres scored more goals than both Florida and Edmonton last year correct? Right?

Nobody is disputing Benson’s work ethic. He just doesn’t strike everyone as a significant offensive threat. Now 23 year old Benson is a different story. KA sucks so I get the pro top six group being in favor of Benson in that role. Probably unlikely KA gets an established veteran to replace JJ. Everyone else sees it as a situation where we are promoting a guy who on a really good team would likely not be in the top six for another couple years. Therefore his promotion might be a sign of another year the roster still sucks.

Well, you want me to say Buffalo, and it's a safe choice as I'm sure it's one of the most if not the most, but I'd say it doesn't have to be. They have created this situation and I'd be confident suggesting Buffalo was not on the most lists when Pegula bought the team but it has progressively risen in that list over these years. The perception is that much harder to change now. Otherwise I think it varies. Depends on where the players are from too. Some players get to submit lists when they kick in as well and they can be strategic. For example I hear Ullmark listed all the teams he thought wanted or needed goalies to try to avoid a trade from Boston. I imagine that sort of thing can happen often.

I'm hoping what we saw last year is nowhere near Luukkonen's prime.

Two things have changed about the Sabres still-youthful roster: The number of very inexperienced players in crucial roles has declined considerably. The number of players in their prime in key positions has increased considerably. Two years ago, they started the season with 2 players in their top 9 F/top 4 D/starting G who were in their prime (older than 25, younger than 30, Greenway and Tuch), and 4 who had yet to play 80 NHL games (Luukkonen, Quinn, Peterka and Power) This year, they project to start the season with 6 in their prime (Luukkonen, Dahlin, Norris, Thompson, Greenway and Tuch), and one who has yet to play 80 games (Kulich). Benson ended up cracking the top 9 two years ago and Doan may do the same this year.

It seems odd that top 6 is a distinction for a forward and not top 3. There are a number of lower scoring forwards on what would be the group between 4 and 6 but few on good teams between 1 and 3. The more I think about how many goals Tage Thompson scored with sub optimal line mates I can't help but be impressed with what he did. Although he started the year with Tuch and Peterka after the second line failed and Tuch was moved off he spent a Lot of time with Kulich and or Benson. No other high goal scoring forward had less qualified help than he did. Some examples. Draisaitl / Arvidson, Podkolzin or almost equal with McDavid and Hyman. Nylander/ Pacioretty, Tavares Ovechkin/ Strome, Protas Pasternack/ Zacha, Geekie Point/ Kucherov, Gentzel Connor/ Scheifele, Vilardi I could keep going but you should get the idea by now. Thompson must be going out of his mind. I don't know how he felt about Skinner but the guy could put pucks in the net. The same goes for Peterka. What now for a left wing on the first line? Thompson plays better when he plays with guys he trusts at his skill level. If he does not trust what the other guy is doing he plays a very individual game. I don't see the trust with Benson or Kulich that I would like to see with Thompson on a regular basis. Those guys have a lot of development ahead before they should be on the top line.

Which team do you think is listed more than any other team in the NMC?

You've literally been disproven, multiple times. Do better.

Can't stand NMCs and yes I think they definitely hurt teams. There used to be only a few of them but now it's like every single player demands some form of one. I can see why the players love them, but from a fan point of view they suck and teams like the Sabres are heavily screwed by them. Also hate tax inequalities but there's nothing we can do about either.

If he gets around 60 points for a playoff or non-playoff team, he would be doing well. You have to also include his prowess in the defensive side of the game when evaluating him. Was he playing a role higher than he should have last year? Probably so. However, if you consider how well he acquitted himself as a 19 year old, I would consider his season a success and would be excited about his prospects this season.

I'll say this, if they deploy him on the first line and gets regular PP minutes, he could get close to 60pts.... which would be acceptable on a non-playoff team like Buffalo. That said, you want to be taken seriously as a playoff contender? Do. Better.

For a second-line winger on a typical playoff team, a point total in the range of 55-70 points is a reasonable expectation. This is an increase from the general average of about 50 points, which accounts for the fact that playoff teams generally have more depth and stronger offensive production throughout their lineup.

God, even with Ruff being awful, the team being GMd by Kevyn, and the general malaise of the team, I hope Benson drops 70pts so I can come back to this thread and be like "cool, sure".

What nonsense. You're using projections, which fine okay, and then you picked wingers based on your own feels. Meier at those numbers for example, would be not only highest scoring winger on NJ but the 2nd highest scorer period. That's not a "2nd line winger" Just a total garbage analysis here. Be better. It's what's the average pt production for the 4th winger on a playoff team, not this nonsense.

I agree... it does slant the league but its an excuse do better adapt overcome the competent teams do ... the problem is we dont have competence. If we did it wouldn't be a problem. It's like players some have more talent than others... you can wah wah or you can work harder... life isn't created equal so figure out how to equalize it or go away

But that is only one second line winger per team, presumably the highest scoring second line wing? Add in that Meier and Conner likely outscored at least one wing on the first line of their respective teams and I find this data less than compelling. I am not say I don't agree that Benson's point production is borderline for a playoff team's second line, I just think your data is incomplete.

Here’s a breakdown of the regular-season point production for second-line wingers on NHL playoff teams from the 2022–2023 season: 🏒 2022–2023 NHL Playoff Teams: Second-Line Wingers' Regular Season Points Team Player Position GP G A PTS PPG New York Rangers Alexis Lafrenière LW 82 28 29 57 0.70 New Jersey Devils Timo Meier RW 82 40 46 86 1.05 Carolina Hurricanes Seth Jarvis RW 82 21 38 59 0.72 Toronto Maple Leafs Michael Bunting LW 82 23 26 49 0.60 Minnesota Wild Matt Boldy LW 82 31 32 63 0.77 Colorado Avalanche Artturi Lehkonen LW 82 19 29 48 0.59 Dallas Stars Mason Marchment LW 81 17 30 47 0.58 Vegas Golden Knights Jonathan Marchessault LW 82 28 36 64 0.78 Los Angeles Kings Kevin Fiala LW 82 23 28 51 0.62 Boston Bruins Jake DeBrusk LW 82 27 23 50 0.61 Tampa Bay Lightning Brandon Hagel LW 82 30 34 64 0.78 Florida Panthers Carter Verhaeghe LW 82 42 31 73 0.89 Edmonton Oilers Zach Hyman LW 82 36 34 70 0.85 Seattle Kraken Jared McCann LW 79 40 30 70 0.89 New York Islanders Anders Lee LW 82 28 23 51 0.62 Winnipeg Jets Kyle Connor LW 82 31 49 80 0 📊 Observations Point Production Range: Second-line wingers on playoff teams typically recorded between 49 and 86 points during the 2022–2023 regular season. Points Per Game (PPG): This translates to approximately 0.60 to 1.05 points per game, indicating a strong offensive contribution. Top Performers: Players like Timo Meier (86 points) and Kyle Connor (80 points) were standout contributors in their respective teams' top six. 🔍 Comparison to Your 17-Year-Old WHL Example If a 17-year-old winger in the WHL records 98 points in 68 games, that equates to approximately 1.44 points per game. Projecting this to an 82-game NHL season using a typical WHL-to-NHL translation factor of 0.30, the NHLe would be: 1.44 PPG × 0.30 × 82 games = ~35.5 points This projection is slightly below the typical production of a second-line winger on a playoff team.

If you strike down the Concept of Benson, he will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

This is an interesting thread. It's boiled down to: everyone here is high on Benson. It's a matter of whether or not you think he is top 6 this year, next year or the year after.

I did this once but tomorrow, I'll pull the numbers for toi. Again if Zach Benson were 6'3" none of you would say anything. If he were a rookie this year, you'd be excited. It's because he's 5'10" and played last yr at 19. Show you're work then. Give us the last 3 years.

No he didn't. He got a healthy dose of ***** including Cozens. Half his time is with guys with the yips.

We just have different views on these players. I think Benson is a better all around player than Quinn or Kulich already. Indeed, when I look at our forward group, I think that Quinn and Kulich are the obvious positions where improvement could be made via trade. I would move them for Rust and Rakell without hesitation, if such a trade was available. Agreed though, that Benson should not have been in the NHL two seasons ago, not because he was ruined or because he was unable to compete at the NHL level, but because there was just no good reason to keep an 18 year old, 13th OA pick on the roster of a team with $10million+ in cap space. That was negligence on Adams's part.

Tage and Tuch are bonefide top line players. Zuck and Norris are legit top 6. Zucker is an option on #1 based on available choices. Quinn, Kulich and Benson are not legit top 6 but I rank them in that order as options based on arguments provided before. Quinn and Kulich have shown better acumen at scoring. We all can be wrong about our projections. Kevyn was wrong keeping him as a top 13 player two years ago, and that’s his f$&king job. I’m using history to determine where he is slotted.