Forbes: The Business of Hockey

[PromoTheRobot]

Forbes: The Business of Hockey

 

This is the main page for the article. Click on the Sabres in the rabk list and it opens to a page full of interesting facts and figures. You can see a chart that shows how much the Sabres payroll has increased. Did you know our payroll is almost $15M higher now than during our last cup run?

 

PTR

[tom webster]

Forbes: The Business of Hockey

 

This is the main page for the article. Click on the Sabres in the rabk list and it opens to a page full of interesting facts and figures. You can see a chart that shows how much the Sabres payroll has increased. Did you know our payroll is almost $15M higher now than during our last cup run?

 

PTR

 

 

Bear in mind a couple of things;

 

a) the numbers are estimates as they are part of no public record

b) operating revenue and actual profit/loss are two distinct numbers

c) TG, when praising his new minority partners , has stated that because of them, the team operates in the black

[tulax]

Bear in mind a couple of things;

 

a) the numbers are estimates as they are part of no public record

b) operating revenue and actual profit/loss are two distinct numbers

c) TG, when praising his new minority partners , has stated that because of them, the team operates in the black

 

In regard to letter B, I assume you mean operating income rather than revenue. Also, the actual profit and loss, or net income, will probably be lower given that Forbes is using EBITDA as its evaluator.

 

There is also this note in the fine print "Revenues and operating income are for 2008-09 season and are net of revenue sharing."

[tom webster]

In regard to letter B, I assume you mean operating income rather than revenue. Also, the actual profit and loss, or net income, will probably be lower given that Forbes is using EBITDA as its evaluator.

 

There is also this note in the fine print "Revenues and operating income are for 2008-09 season and are net of revenue sharing."

 

Getting past semantics and the fact that Forbes numbers are estimates, would it be fair to conclude that according to Forbes, a business bought out of bankruptcyy for $92 million(reportedly less then $40 million cash with the rest being assumption of debt) is now worth $170 million despite apparently bleeding millions of dollars each year except one.

So whether you believe Forbes and estimates and assume TG is lying when he talks of operating in the black or not, it still shapes up as a pretty shrewd investment.

[SwampD]

I don't understand how Tampa is 18. Every time I watch one of their games (including tonight) the stands are absolutely barren. On the flip side, the Phoenix game looks sold out (although they are playing the Canadians and they usually travel pretty well).

 

EDIT:OK maybe not sold out, but pretty full.

[Taro T]

Getting past semantics and the fact that Forbes numbers are estimates, would it be fair to conclude that according to Forbes, a business bought out of bankruptcyy for $92 million(reportedly less then $40 million cash with the rest being assumption of debt) is now worth $170 million despite apparently bleeding millions of dollars each year except one.

So whether you believe Forbes and estimates and assume TG is lying when he talks of operating in the black or not, it still shapes up as a pretty shrewd investment.

Tom, IIRC you've got it backwards, it was $52 in cash and ~$40 in assumed debt. (But either way, it was far less than $92 out of pocket.)

 

As to what the team is actually worth today, it's clearly worth more than $52, but I don't know that if I win the $300MM powerball that I'm offering the whole after tax payoff to have Pat Lalime wash my car. As to your last statement that the team is worth more today than what Tommy bought it for, you are absolutely correct; and that is the reason Larry Quinn is a minority owner of the team today. Had he not tipped Tom off to the goldmine, the team could actually be located in KC or Milwaukee or Seattle (basically anywhere outside of Balsillie's potential reign of terror). Because there is absolutely no way that the Hamsterman had the money to run the team. (Think Donner but on a 3 year (or less) schedule to self destruct.) And, it appears there was only 1 other bid at the time that was legit and I don't think it had much more substance than the Hamster's bid.

[tom webster]

Tom, IIRC you've got it backwards, it was $52 in cash and ~$40 in assumed debt. (But either way, it was far less than $92 out of pocket.)

 

As to what the team is actually worth today, it's clearly worth more than $52, but I don't know that if I win the $300MM powerball that I'm offering the whole after tax payoff to have Pat Lalime wash my car. As to your last statement that the team is worth more today than what Tommy bought it for, you are absolutely correct; and that is the reason Larry Quinn is a minority owner of the team today. Had he not tipped Tom off to the goldmine, the team could actually be located in KC or Milwaukee or Seattle (basically anywhere outside of Balsillie's potential reign of terror). Because there is absolutely no way that the Hamsterman had the money to run the team. (Think Donner but on a 3 year (or less) schedule to self destruct.) And, it appears there was only 1 other bid at the time that was legit and I don't think it had much more substance than the Hamster's bid.

 

1) There is actually court testimony that claims that the cash investment was less then $30 million( I believe it was the Bruce McNall trial that had to do with the value of the team). He did, however, have to put up 5 or 10 million during the lockout.

2) I don't begrudge anyone making a return on their investment.

3) I believe from a strictly financial perspective LQ and DD deserve a ton of credit for righting this ship.

4) The Forbes' estimates don't jive when you consider some of the statements on record with regards to profit and percentage of revenue that goes toward salaries/

[Taro T]

1) There is actually court testimony that claims that the cash investment was less then $30 million( I believe it was the Bruce McNall trial that had to do with the value of the team). He did, however, have to put up 5 or 10 million during the lockout.

2) I don't begrudge anyone making a return on their investment.

3) I believe from a strictly financial perspective LQ and DD deserve a ton of credit for righting this ship.

4) The Forbes' estimates don't jive when you consider some of the statements on record with regards to profit and percentage of revenue that goes toward salaries/

I went back and looked through the bankruptcy papers this morning. It looks most likely that he paid $45MM out of pocket - $25MM up front and $20MM in assumed liabilities (other than the 2 major loans); and the rest of the $92MM was the loans that would be paid from arena operations. (My bad on the $52MM. I was double counting the down payment.)

 

According to the bankruptcy papers, (specifically page 7 of the Motion for the Entry of an Order (I) Approving (A) Bidding Procedures in Connection with the Sale of Substantially All of the Debtors' Assests and (B) Bid Protections, and (II) Granting Related Relief) Golisano paid $47MM at the time of the purchase and assumed $45MM in liabilities ($25MM of which was a loan from the Urban Development Corporation which gets paid from funds arising from the arena operations).

 

He had the option of paying off the concession loan (which was $22MM of the $47MM upfront purchase price) but had to make that determination 1 month after the sale. Don't know for certain whether that was paid off or not, but for sake of argument am assuming that it wasn't paid off. If he did pay if off, then he paid $67MM ($47MM up front and $20MM in assumed liabilities).

 

The bulk of the remaining $20MM in liabilities that were assumed were employee related costs.

[Mbossy]

Don't forget the cost of the used fax machine!