jwrak Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 1. Say what you want about "management layer"...you still need guys to make decisions...the GM has enough to worry about 2. Ok....I will give you that...but it was the Sabres who would not pay for veterans to make the team (Rochester)competitive...regardless...as an owner..you can't let that happen! 3. Hecht...Teppo...Spacek...I would hardly call them "proven"....and lets get serious...Drury, Briere, Mckee, Campbell, Dumont...all of those guys wore an "A" or a "C" and they are all gone....coincidence????? 4. First of all that 50/50 is a joke...and I am not saying this is huge....but it would be nice if the Sabres and other teams bucked up once and a while 5. And of course I mentioned that Doug Allen "rarely" does the anthem during the week Drury, Briere, McKee, Campbell, Dumont total number of cups won.... 1 I would hardly call 4 out of 5 of the guys in that group "proven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 I'm not one to defend Donner, but I'm not sure he is to blame for the dual affiliation? Whose idea was it and regardless of who suggested it, the Sabres agreed to it instead of looking elsewhere(if it was not their suggestion)? While Donner has a lot to do with were things ended up, it was Buffalo who wanted to go to the dual affiliation to save money during the lock out and the first couple years after. Of course, Larry no longer wants to take credit for that brainstorm. There are those who would tell you that having the dual affiliation was the reason Jeff Jillson and Doug Janik were all that were available against Carolina two years ago. Of course, I am not one to bring up old wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 The only people that complain about golisano are those who simply do not understand how business should and must be done, or those who refuse to listen or accept it. Golisano was under no obligation to Yes, SAVE the franchise. He did so because Western NY is his home and he's committed to it. What TG has done in his lifetime should be earning him respect, with STREETS named after him. Instead we get idiot (yes, idiot) fans who react to the little fraction of the story that they understand, wins and losses. Golisano is under no obligation to ANYONE to run the sabres as a charity. He RIGHTFULLY chooses to run it as a business that must AT LEAST break even, and I respect him for that. You should too. As should everyone. The responsibility is on FANS in Buffalo and elsewhere to keep the Sabres viable going forward into an NFL-like salary inflation environment. Ticket prices will HAVE to go up; no way around it. It will be the FANS who decide if the franchise survives or not. If they pay up, and continue to buy merchandise at the excellent pace they've shown, they might have a real shot. Otherwise, Golisano shouldn't have to pay out of his pockets just because he's wealthy. That's the kind of thinking proffered by jealous minds; minds that contrive to think that something is OWED to them. Grow up or wise up - maybe both. Ownership and management count on people like you and your business ignorance to allow them to perpetuate the fraud that you owe them something. At the very least, Tom Golisano is at least $100 million more wealthy than he was before he bought the team. As a capitalist and fellow businessmen I believe he is entitled to make all he can, but if he wants to start the whole small market , break even talk we have heard before, let him open his books. Otherwise, stop the whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 :lol: :lol: Inky=not exactly attentive to detail! Good one! <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 No one held a gun to his head to buy it..With that comes praise and criticism..He was there and on TV every game for 3 good years..This yr after screwing up he turtled..Explain??????? Most people here seem to assume that TG hasn't been coming to the games because the camera doesn't go to him after goals like it used to. Gee, do you think TG might have asked to not be a focal point? Duhhh... TG has watched every single Sabres game this year. He hasn't attended as many as last year, but to conclude that it has anything to do with their performance or whatever is just more stupid, childish folly. I'm astounded by how much of that is rampant here. Its the responsibility of the ownership to run a team that is succesful and wins if you want the fans to sellout your arena every game.. Yes, and a few games here and there and a few injuries and a few soft goals, all totally a mere 4 more wins, would have us in position to be fighting for the 4th seed. Not much. And the other teams are good, too. All you're doing is whining because the playoffs are unlikely. Guess what? There will be other years where the Sabres miss. Hopefully they make more than they miss. Everyone is on the Montreal bandwagon this year. Where were they last year? Oh, that's right... What happened to reason and intelligence? Its Golisanos choice to pay out of his pocket to have a winner just likes its the fans choice to pay out of their pocket to go see a hockeygame..I wont pay for a bad product i would expect a wise consumer like yourself wouldnt buy a rotten dozen eggs would ya?? You might but I doubt it..Put a good team and we will pay..He had his free pass this yr, I doubt they get fooled again.. Again, pure emotional foolishness. If Miller makes a few key saves in a mere 4 games, you wouldn't be here whining about Tom Golisano for god's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 First I know first hand he hasnt been to many games this year so stop there... Injuries Soft goals are all part of the game..Good teams overcome them bad teams make excuses,which is what I see when I read your post.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Ownership and management count on people like you and your business ignorance to allow them to perpetuate the fraud that you owe them something. At the very least, Tom Golisano is at least $100 million more wealthy than he was before he bought the team.As a capitalist and fellow businessmen I believe he is entitled to make all he can, but if he wants to start the whole small market , break even talk we have heard before, let him open his books. Otherwise, stop the whining. Well, Mr. Tom Webster, I'm unimpressed. You might as well have said "I know you are but what am I?" my business ignorance...what kind of a 'businessman' makes sweeping generalities about a total stranger based on a post on a fan message board that is asking for some reason and factual analysis instead of making posts based on uninformed assumptions and disappointment...? Not a very good one I'd guess. And for you to say that TG is 100 mill richer due to the sabres, that REALLY shows that you speak before you read. Maybe put a call in to the Sabres and ask how much "profit" TG has pulled in. Get back to us, would ya? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 First I know first hand he hasnt been to many games this year so stop there... Injuries Soft goals are all part of the game..Good teams overcome them bad teams make excuses,which is what I see when I read your post.. Yes, he has been to fewer games, but he hasn't missed watching a single game. What basis does anyone have to make assumptions as to WHY? You don't know what's going on in his life, and making assumptions such as 'he didn't come to as many games because they tanked' or whatever, is simply childish. As to your other statement: BE PREPARED TO BE FRUSTRATED NO MATTER WHAT TEAM YOU DECIDE TO SUPPORT. Because every team will have down years. If it's too much for you, stop watching the sabres and jump on the Red Wings' wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Yes, he has been to fewer games, but he hasn't missed watching a single game. What basis does anyone have to make assumptions as to WHY? You don't know what's going on in his life, and making assumptions such as 'he didn't come to as many games because they tanked' or whatever, is simply childish. As to your other statement: BE PREPARED TO BE FRUSTRATED NO MATTER WHAT TEAM YOU DECIDE TO SUPPORT. Because every team will have down years. If it's too much for you, stop watching the sabres and jump on the Red Wings' wagon. Its awful funny how when the Sabres are winning that he shows up makes himself easy to say Hi in the corridors during intermissions and take all the thank you's..But after they screw up and let all these players walk for squat, trade Campbell for a if come maybe and all he does is go to HNIC and put his mug on the screen and deny rumors... I have a problem... A good leader wouldve came out and said we screwed up or we planned it and this is part of our plan going forward..The fans here deserve it..THEY GOT SHAT ON...And youre gonna follow the pied piper, have at it I wont..Raise ticket prices go ahead..But make sure you put a quality team on the ice not an excuse....Good teams and good owners dont let thier players walk without a fight..This team turtled just like its owner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Well, Mr. Tom Webster, I'm unimpressed. You might as well have said "I know you are but what am I?" my business ignorance...what kind of a 'businessman' makes sweeping generalities about a total stranger based on a post on a fan message board that is asking for some reason and factual analysis instead of making posts based on uninformed assumptions and disappointment...? Not a very good one I'd guess. And for you to say that TG is 100 mill richer due to the sabres, that REALLY shows that you speak before you read. Maybe put a call in to the Sabres and ask how much "profit" TG has pulled in. Get back to us, would ya? :rolleyes: Sweeping generality because you base your break even statement on TG's three public service announcements. $100 million richer is the total increase in value of franchise over suuposed purchase price. This does not reflect arena profits or operationg profit(see below) This also does not take into account that Golisano's purchase price includes assumption of debt that franchise probably paid off with operating profit. I'll give you a chance to show your business acumen. TG says the team this year will just about break even this year with no playoff run. Playoff games are worth an average of $1 million gross profit per game. Last year and the year before, Buffalo played 9 home playoff game. Last year payroll to players alone was $6 million less than this year. The year before payroll was abour $5 million less than last year. This does not reflect new pay for Darcy or Lindy. Payroll accounts for at least 60% of Sabre revenue. Now tell me, how could he not have made substantial income the last two years. I hope this was a little more specific for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Yes, he has been to fewer games, but he hasn't missed watching a single game. What basis does anyone have to make assumptions as to WHY? You don't know what's going on in his life, and making assumptions such as 'he didn't come to as many games because they tanked' or whatever, is simply childish. As to your other statement: BE PREPARED TO BE FRUSTRATED NO MATTER WHAT TEAM YOU DECIDE TO SUPPORT. Because every team will have down years. If it's too much for you, stop watching the sabres and jump on the Red Wings' wagon. You taking his word for it, or you sitting next to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Its awful funny how when the Sabres are winning that he shows up makes himself easy to say Hi in the corridors during intermissions and take all the thank you's..But after they screw up and let all these players walk for squat, trade Campbell for a if come maybe and all he does is go to HNIC and put his mug on the screen and deny rumors... I have a problem... A good leader wouldve came out and said we screwed up or we planned it and this is part of our plan going forward..The fans here deserve it..THEY GOT SHAT ON...And youre gonna follow the pied piper, have at it I wont..Raise ticket prices go ahead..But make sure you put a quality team on the ice not an excuse....Good teams and good owners dont let thier players walk without a fight..This team turtled just like its owner... yawn... I repeat...Miller makes a few saves he's supposed to make in 4 games, and these posts of yours wouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 yawn... I repeat...Miller makes a few saves he's supposed to make in 4 games, and these posts of yours wouldn't exist. I expected nothing less from a sheep like yourself..LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 I expected nothing less from a sheep like yourself..LOL Don't worry, he is getting his calculator out to try and prove some catastrophic loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Don't worry, he is getting his calculator out to try and prove some catastrophic loss. The ones with the very big numbers I assume... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Sweeping generality because you base your break even statement on TG's three public service announcements....huh...? You'll have to explain what you mean. Or is this deliberate subterfuge? $100 million richer is the total increase in value of franchise over suuposed purchase price. This does not reflect arena profits or operationg profit(see below) This also does not take into account that Golisano's purchase price includes assumption of debt that franchise probably paid off with operating profit. First, show me the official bid that signifies that the franchise is worth 100 million more than its purchase price. Anything short of a bid - even an informal one - is pure assumption. And you as a businessman must know that, right? Second, any appraisal of the franchise value is immaterial to the annual bottom line performance....and purely speculation. Second, TG has made it very clear that he would re-invest any profit back into the team and community. He has EARNED the right to be trusted. Name for me please, three men of this era who have done more for western NY than TG. Do you even have a clue what he's done? Have you done your homework? I'll bet not. I'll give you a chance to show your business acumen. TG says the team this year will just about break even this year with no playoff run. Playoff games are worth an average of $1 million gross profit per game. Last year and the year before, Buffalo played 9 home playoff game. Last year payroll to players alone was $6 million less than this year. The year before payroll was abour $5 million less than last year. This does not reflect new pay for Darcy or Lindy. Payroll accounts for at least 60% of Sabre revenue. Now tell me, how could he not have made substantial income the last two years. I hope this was a little more specific for you. I'm sure if TG were to read this he'd be cracking up. Do you REALLY think those are all the items in the ledger, big guy? :LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 1)The only place that the break-even statement was made was on Tom's public service announcements masquerading as an interview. Unless of course you are an insider. 2)When Tom's net worth is discussed it is the assumption of what someone would pay for his assets that is quantified. We both know that the economic climate has changed a great deal for the super wealthy since he bought the team for thirty cents on the dollar. I am guessing that you know that there are people that would pony up at least $150 million for the franchise now that Tom and Larry's business ability has righted the ship along with the cost certainty and revenue sharing of the new CBA. 3) I haven't heard him say that nor have I heard any story where he openly discusses whether numbers include revenue sharing and whether any officers are compensated through the company. Furthermore, I don't believe Mr. Golisano blatantly lies about anything. I trust that everything he says is wrapped around some semblance of the truth. However, it is embarrassing when he quotes plus/ minus figures for his ex-captains, refuses to answer yes or no to a question with regard to the team being for sale and uses the old stand-by answers with regards to the handling of negotiations that were butchered. Even Larry Quinn admits there were errors made but Golisano sits there and says there was no way to sign them below the scale they eventually signed for. I do believe that Mr Golisano deserves all the accolades and respect he has been given with respect to his charitable efforts. I don't even like the wording of this posts because of that. However, he and his associates have made repeated errors on the hockey side of this organization and instead of admitting those, he appears to be in hiding. 4) I realize that their are pages and pages of entries on his profit and loss statements. The assumption is that due to the organizations streamlining, all other cash expenses had been cut during and after the lock out. Assuming furthermore that all other expenses have increase for the Sabres like they have for all of us, it stands to reason that they made a lot of actual money during those first two years. Now if you want to start talking about write offs and other paper expenses, than we can start explaining how profit and loss are merely theoretical terms. Back at you big guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 1)The only place that the break-even statement was made was on Tom's public service announcements masquerading as an interview. Unless of course you are an insider. 2)When Tom's net worth is discussed it is the assumption of what someone would pay for his assets that is quantified. We both know that the economic climate has changed a great deal for the super wealthy since he bought the team for thirty cents on the dollar. I am guessing that you know that there are people that would pony up at least $150 million for the franchise now that Tom and Larry's business ability has righted the ship along with the cost certainty and revenue sharing of the new CBA. 3) I haven't heard him say that nor have I heard any story where he openly discusses whether numbers include revenue sharing and whether any officers are compensated through the company. Furthermore, I don't believe Mr. Golisano blatantly lies about anything. I trust that everything he says is wrapped around some semblance of the truth. However, it is embarrassing when he quotes plus/ minus figures for his ex-captains, refuses to answer yes or no to a question with regard to the team being for sale and uses the old stand-by answers with regards to the handling of negotiations that were butchered. Even Larry Quinn admits there were errors made but Golisano sits there and says there was no way to sign them below the scale they eventually signed for. I do believe that Mr Golisano deserves all the accolades and respect he has been given with respect to his charitable efforts. I don't even like the wording of this posts because of that. However, he and his associates have made repeated errors on the hockey side of this organization and instead of admitting those, he appears to be in hiding. 4) I realize that their are pages and pages of entries on his profit and loss statements. The assumption is that due to the organizations streamlining, all other cash expenses had been cut during and after the lock out. Assuming furthermore that all other expenses have increase for the Sabres like they have for all of us, it stands to reason that they made a lot of actual money during those first two years. Now if you want to start talking about write offs and other paper expenses, than we can start explaining how profit and loss are merely theoretical terms. Back at you big guy Come on Noddy, surely you can reply without divulging who you are. Tell us all what the $30 million in other expenses were the last couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Fan Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 It was a bad year...can we just leave it at that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 It was a bad year...can we just leave it at that??? Not around here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlecap Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 this year we fell apart like a cheap suit. maybe that's what we are. maybe it'll get worse too. look at the marlins...$21 million for their ENTIRE TEAM and the league gave them $600 mil for a new stadium. can you say "money grab?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 It was a bad year...can we just leave it at that??? The point is, and has been all along, that if we don't learn form our mistakes, and choose to just chalk them up to a missed save here or there, then we are destined to repeat them. I don't believe "cheapness" was a good choice of words and would have probably chosen to ignore this thread if Nod didn't come out and spill his obvious management propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 The point is, and has been all along, that if we don't learn form our mistakes... So what does people bitching about the Sabres have to do to with actually fixing the problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 So what does people bitching about the Sabres have to do to with actually fixing the problems? I can't speak to other people, but I believe that ownership and management do care what people think, or they wouldn't put out their propaganda. I hope to try and balance that propaganda. I personally, am motivated by the story of Ralph Wilson and Pat McGroeder(sic). As the story goes, when Pat was booed along with Ralph at his wall of fame induction, Ralph at that point, embarrassed for his good friend, made a conscious decision to try and "fix the team" and brought in the people to do it. Now it obviously didn't last for eternity, but it was a hell of a run. Now of course there are those who just want to bitch and take the contrarian(may have made that word up) view, someone else will have to answer for those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreNod Posted April 1, 2008 Report Share Posted April 1, 2008 Come on Noddy, surely you can reply without divulging who you are. Tell us all what the $30 million in other expenses were the last couple of years. Sorry, I don't spend all my hours here like you do, mr. businessman. I don't have access to the ledger and it wasn't the point to begin with. But you know that. Got any other red herrings to throw into the 'argument'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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