mjd1001

I didn't say good players for 8 years. I said "We have 8 seasons now of seeing him with very good linemates, with different coaches, with different teams" The reason I wrote it that way is he has had All of those things over the coure of 8 years, not that he had All of them for All 8 years. I tried to put that into context, but I probably could have written it a bit better.

Even when Eichel had his hot start, was 'on a tear', he still wasn't elite. His hot start ended at game 21 this year, after which is points per game production started to slip. EVEN THEN, at his PPG peak during his hot start, he was getting 1.23 PPG. At that rate, he would still be 12th -14th in the league. When you cherry pick the part of the season where he was playing the best and absolute healthiest, and compare that to the rest of the league when it is likely other players have had hot and cold streaks and have been playing injured, the best you can do with Eichel is get him to peak, at one given moment, at 12th-14th in the league. When he was with Buffalo before his surgery, he was 22nd in points per game in the league over that time. Since he was traded to Vegas, he is 89th in the league in Points per game, including his hot start this year of course. For his entire career, (Vegas and Buffalo combined) he is 27th in points per game. Even before his neck injury (throw out that last season with Buffalo and only look at his stats up through the 2019-2020 year (statistically his best) and even THEN he is still only 21st in the league in points per game production. Before he got hurt, he still wasn't generational, still not even close to elite. And Points per game is the most generous way to look at him. Look at pure production, and he is farther down the list due to his games missed. He is who he is. A guy that on occasion can look like he has extreme talent, but in the end, is a good-to-very good player in terms of putting up points, but thats it. Not generational, not elite, not even a half step below elite. We have 8 seasons now of seeing him with very good linemates, with different coaches, with different teams, and he is what he is. The 2nd best thing that can happen for any team Eichel plays for is for them to realize he isn't going to carry the team, and instead view him as a 2nd or 3rd best forward. The BEST thing that can happen for any team Eichel plays for is for Jack himself to realize he isn't good enough to carry a team and to play that 'supporting role'.

This is what I have thought also. In the past decade, I have been at events (not just hockey) in the Arenas in Boston Toronto, Philly, Columbus, Detroit and Tampa. It isn't just that the Arena in Buffalo isn't as nice, it is way, WAY behind. I'm not sure what can be done, the money just might not be available to do what needs to get done to 'catch up', but when you do go to one of those other places, the difference is massive.

Different Discussion...but I would put Mario and Hasek in that list with Orr and Gretzky. When Mario was at his best he was unstoppable, Literally, if he was going to score, no one was going to prevent it. I do agee with Sid and Ovie ( and everyone else) being that step behind 'generational' though.

There seems to be some things in common between Jack Eichel and Sammy Watkins: Both Drafted by a below average/bad Buffalo team....both considered to have 'elite' talent for their position coming into the league. Both had VERY good first couple years on their Buffalo team while not being good enough to get the team to the playoffs...both then had injury issues...Both traded shortly after that major injury in Buffalo... Watkins after his injury was never the same. NFL receiver, but bumped around the league. Eichel? since his injury he has fallen down the scoring charts of league leaders. Not sure Eichel will turn into the journyman that Watkins has become, but his career seems to at the very least not be rising.

Last year Jack had just returned from his surgery, so it might have been acceptable that he would have a slow return to form. He got 0.74 points per game, which ranked him in a tie for 110th in the league. Again, just back from surgery. This year, well, he had the full offseason off, could train with his new team, had almost 1/2 season last year to 'recover' from his surgery...is on a 'better' team, getting top ice time minutes, and all the Power play time he can handle (tops on the team). 0.92 points per game, or 56th in the league. Hes a good/very player in terms of point production. Thats who he is. He is not a great overall player by any stretch, and is only 'very good' in the offensive zone. We are now 8 seaons into the "Jack Eichel NHL experience". He has been on a couple teams, played with good teamates, had multiple different styles/coaches. He is who he is...a guy that you HOPE will finish in the top 25 places in terms of points. But for whatever reason, injuries, wear and tear, just not being as good as everyone thought he is....that top 25 isn't even a guarantee anymore.

Maybe there is a disagreement going forward. He is the safety coach, and his opinion may differ greatlly from Beane or McDermott. One side may want the veteran pair back there and is pounding the table for both Poyer and Hyde to be the starters next year. The other side is OK with youth/change/more athleticism coming in and thinks that in the long run the secondary can be just as good that way (if not better) for less money. It might just be a difference of opinion that means that it is 'time' for a change to bring in someone who is more aligned with the teams thinking.

I agree 100% I think when you talk about 'top 10'...include D-men and goalies in there also, I I thinkthere might be 30 guys that a case can be made for as being that 'last guy' on the top 10 list.

He is a good player obviously, but I am at the same spot I am with a lot of these trade proposals....unless you are getting someone for an incredible deal (not too many assets AND a market-level-at-highest contract) I am not super interested now. That doesn't mean that there won't come a time when a deal like this might make more sense. But at the moment, the team is getting better. They seem to be a good group together in the locker room. You have young guys that are still developing. I'm not in a rush to pay a lot to accelerate things when I, personally, think things are progressing forward at a good rate now.

I guess my point is I don't want a 3rd line player whos production is 'just a typical 3rd liner' if possible. Coyle is getting .53 ppg. Jost. is .41. Its a noticable difference. Maybe its nitpicking, but for me to say I have a 'good' 3rd line center, I want just a bit more production. Again, I am saying that if I am going to consider Jost a very good 3rd liner that I want to bring back 'for sure' (which to me that is the general tone of this thread), I want a LITTLE more production. I'm not talking 20+ goals. But 40 points (or very, VERY close to it) would be nice for a 3rd line center on a team that likes to say they play as up-tempo as the Sabres do.

I LIKE him, but to me he has been a 'slightly above average' replacement level guy. He is getting 14 minutes of ice time. His 82 game pace is 11 goals and 23 assists. He does kill penalties. I guess I don't know enough about how he fits in the room, and just how GOOD he is at penalty killing. I'd like him to be a 3rd line center, and if he is, I want more than an 11 goal, 23 assist pace. Does that mean I think he is hurting the team? No, not at all. Just before I am on board with signing him again to an 'above vet minimum' 1 year deal....or even a 2 year deal, I want to see a little more production, and I'd want to see that he is actually improving the Sabres PK. I guess if he is 'just as good' as someone like Cozens on the PK, that means you can rest Cozens when penalty killing so he is fresher 5 on 5. I don't know. I guess I like Jost, I just don't (yet) see him as a huge asset.

In a way, I'm not all that upset the season is over. That in no way means I didn't want them to win, but this season wasn't really super enjoyable to me. With many 'experts', vegas odds, and most people in the fanbase labeling them the preseason Superbowl favorites....it was like almost any win was just 'expected' and any loss was a huge, big negative deal. I'm hoping next year they are consisdered 'one of the top 4-6 teams' and not the favorite. Like the Sabres in 05-06 finishing with 110 points was a much more enjoyable season for me than the 06-07 team that finished with 113. I dont' watch games in a bubble, for me it is a social experience (message boards, twitter, talk radio, etc) and dealing with angst and consternation after every loss from a team with high expectations is just not fun, at least for me.

The OL has been below average for years. As Great as Allen is, his decision making seemed to get worse as the year went on (taking multiple deep shots when needing 3-6 for a first with an option wide open for 10) I think they are "OK" at RB, Same with TE. I'm not 100% done with Gabe Davis as the #2 guy. BUT, looking not as good now as last year, and Diggs, while still great, is 30 now so you have to look for another young gamebreaking star there. DB's I thought were suspect all year. Tre isn't close to what he was before the injury. Hyde and Poyer, as much as many like them and they ARE good, are a little less than 'athletic' at this point in the career. Wouldn't be a bad thing to make changes at S with a lot more athleticism in the D-backfield. LBs good. DL not awful, but not good. Should be better for the money and the draft picks you put into it. Coaching? its really hard for me to evaluate on any level. I'm OK with it...maybe the Defensive philosophy couuld be due for a bit of a change.

I agree with most of what you said. Poyer and Hyde. They are 'good'. Most people like them. Earlier in the year there was a lot of talk of extensions. However, they are getting older and not as athletic as they used to be. I'd be all for no more years for them, dealing with some mistakes at Safety but going younger and a lot more athletic back there. This team just doesn't seem like there are a lot of great athletes. Diggs is their best non-QB on offense, and he is great but he doesn't strike fear into opponents for his speed or size. This team needs to get more athletic on both sides of the ball. If they don't, and if Tua is back for the Dolphins and IF the jets sign one of the veteran QB's for un upgrade...this Bills team might be in a dogfight that ends with them in 3rd in the division next year.

So Bengals are down 3 OL, and now another gets hurt and is playing hobbling with a brace. Yet the Bills D-line can't get hardly any pressure and are getting gashed by the running game? its beyond belief.

They are getting an open air stadium. I get it, no changing that. But this team, on both sides of the ball, seems to be a lot better team playing in good weather on a clean field. Some excpetions, sure, but overall they are much better in good conditions. I want them to prove me wrong.

The DB's are overrated. Tre White is a shadow of what he was before the injury (hopefully he'll be better next year). As much as we like Hyde and Poyer, they just aren't as athletic and quick as they were a couple years ago. You might need to bite-the-bullet on the experience at Safety and get someone more athletic back there going forward.

Have the Bills been down 14 at any point in any game this year? I don't think so. Baltimore? I don't think they were down 14.

It looks like every bills player is terrified of their footing. Cook wouldn't make any kind of cut. The entire offensive line is not setting. Milano I noticed on some pursuit plays on D was not running full speed. BUT, Cincy doesn't seem to be doing that. Watching their feet the last handful of plays, they seem much more confident in their footing.

I'm not too 'worried' about this game. That doesn't mean I think the bills will win for sure, they may very well lose. But...home game, weather not a huge disadvantage to the Bills....Buffalo is healthier than Cincy. If they DON'T win under those conditions, they simply aren't good enough. If they lose, they need to get better. If they win, on to ATL.

I agree that is the max I want to see. The key to this team going forward is to have players signed to market-value-or-below deals. When you are near the cap and one of the top 10 teams, over-paying a player is poisen to your chances. However, with that said, if you offer 8x$8m and won't go higher....and he says no to that....then what do you do?

His play lately has been puzzling. Before he got hurt in the first few games of the year, I saw him make zero mistakes. He was sound in his own end and was laying out someone every couple of games. Hopefully it was an injury that he is recovering from....because he was playing like a great stay-at-home guy earlier in the year.

I'm wanting to see Comrie play a few games at this point.

Here is something interesting about Eichel...has he worked to get BETTER over the course of his career? Look at the other players drafted at the top of the draft that at the time, were considered generational or near generational. 4 guys came to mind when I thought about guys taken within a year or two of him: Eichel, McDavid, Matthews, and McKinnon. Now, on one hand what I am going to say may be influenced by his injuries...but again, even if you take out the first month or two afte he came back from his injury the numbers wouldn't change much. So, these "close to generational players", how has their production changed from the first 3 seasons they played until the last 3 seasons? McDavid. First 3 seasons: 1.22 PPG, last 3: 1.72ppg McKinnon. First 3: 0.70PPG, last 3: 1.39ppg Matthews. First 3: 0.97ppg, last 3: 1.32ppg Eichel. First 3: 0.85ppg, last 3: 0.88ppg There may be some factors, the injury that impact those numbers, sure. But the one thing it shows is that of those 'big 4', Eichel is the only one that hasn't taken major steps up in production from his first few years to the 'prime' production years. Long term injuries causing wear-and-tear? Or just lack of pushing himself like elite players to get better? I'm guessing its a bit of both.

Off topic, but last night also I decided to kill some time watching both that 90's show and the new remake/relaunch of Night court. Neither are great shows, not even good. I don't know how long they will last, but for an hour or two, I was entertained. Its kinda like the Rob Zombie movie remake of the Munters, it was actuall pretty bad as a movie, yet I was still entertained for some reason.