mjd1001

Just a thought that doesn't explain it all..but..... Vancouver has a more mature, veteran defense group. Most/all of their guys are in their mid 20's to early 30s' New Jersey....they were better last year than this year...and either through roster changes or injury, they had a more veteran D-corp last year (when they were better) than they do this year. Talent is a big issue, and their are exceptions....but I think an underated aspect of how good a team is, is how many guys you have as defensemen that get meaningful minutes that have SOME talent (not the most, but some) but have a LOT of NHL experience. In the past, I have underrated and overrated how well I think teams around the league will do, and more often than not, the teams that I underrated did better than I thought and they had some relative unknowns playing defense but they were older and had experience. And the teams I thought would do better than they did, they had really young overall (top to bottom) defensemen. Dahlin, Power, Bryson (in the past), Samuelsson...those are they guys that have gotten big time minutes for the Sabres. They have talent, they might be good and could be great in the future, but they simply do not have the hundreds and hundreds of games of experience seeing everything and knowing where to be to cover up for mistakes the forwards make. You get that when you have been in those positions so many times that it becomes automatic, no thinking involved. The guys the Sabres give big minutes to, they have talent, but they simply are not good enough to cover up for the awful play by the forward in their own zone that more expereinced guys do. 86% of all minutes played by defensemen on this team this year have been logged by players under 25 years of age. 48% of minutes have been logged by defensement that have played less than 2 full seasons (under 150 games) in the NHL for their career. What fixes that? Patience (ducking as the rest of the forum throws rotten eggs and tomatoes at me for using that word)

Since the drought.... Lindy Ruff, hugely successful, former coach of the year winner, wins with different styles with different players. let go because 'it was time for a change'. Ron Rolston, unproven probably in over his head, but give someone different a shot. Ted Nolan. Another former 'coach of the year' winner. Work hard, honest, players give 100% under him, assistants can take care of the x's and o's but he'll get the most out of guys. Hard nosed hockey. Bylsma. Cup winner, Proven, experienced. Knows how to work with star players. Housley. The up-and-comer, thought highly as a good future coach around the league. Former player who knows 'how things work'. Krueger. The ultimate outsider. He will bring a style of coaching unlike anyone else in the NHL. Granato. Development guy. Experience in the NHL, Minors, under 18's. Assistant coaching, development coaching, head coaching at ever level. This team has tried many coaches. They have tried many styles of coaching. Different ages. Different backgrounds. All experience levels. Known guys with experience. Relative unknowns. Yet none have worked. Sure we can change the coach again, but unless/until SOMETHING changes at the top and works down...are we really going to get different results? I don't think so. Is it really the coach? The style of coach? or is there something else 'rotten' in the organization the last decade plus? The Sabres are like an ocean liner that has structural problems and has for the past decade. Keeping on changing the captian of the ship might not be the thing that prevents it from sinking. At this point, change the head coach if you want. But I'd rather see even more money put into development. I'd rather the head coach and GM be given an open checkbook to OVERPAY if needed to get the best assistents money can buy here. I don't know much about Seth Appert, but give him assistents down there (or replace him if needed) to get the best development guys down there. I like Granato, I do not want him gone, but if you think the whole team/organization is so poisened that you need to start over then do it....but if you do bring in a new coach, make sure he has 100%, total autonomy to clean out the current coaching staff and organizational staff and bring in EVERYONE that he wants that fits is vision and give him free reign to spend the money to hire whoever he wants to do that.

Toronto needs cap space, and are losing a Center (Likely) in Tavares soon. Start with Mitts or Cozens in the offer, and work from there with other assets that the team probably overvalues

So the Sabres have a very tall, 1st round/high draft pick D-man who is also skilled, but doesn't play physically. Has a very good first year at a young age but can't seem to build on that.......is it Owen Power or Tyler Myers we are talkikng about.

Those lines look fine. The D-pairings look fine. It still comes down to the same thing, you need more goals out of that top line (and a few at least from the 2nd and 3rd lines)

Dahlin, when you watch his body language....watch that interview last week between periods where he was obviously pissed.....he seems to me to be obviously frustrated. The Question...as the teams best player, as the highest paid player with a long term deal.....does he USE that status with the team and lay into some of the players on this team that need it? I don't think he's that guy, but it wouldn't totally surprise me if I heard he did.

I agree with you he is this teams best player. BUT....if you are looking for why they are so much worse than last year....why they were 1 point from a playoff last year (one good bounce, one bad/good shift in one single game...etc), then you have to look at what is different from last year to start. What is different with this team from last years? First, Cozens and Tage with a huge drop in production. Second, Tuch being slightly less productive and Power having a drop off in play. I think third you put Dahlin's play, especially the last 2-3 weeks. That doesn't mean he isn't the best player on this team...that doesn't mean you should move him, give him less ice time or anything like that......BUT if you want to diagnose what is wrong with this team, a major thing you do is compare it to last year, and his play, to many of us, has taken a step back.

This may not be a possibility, but I'd be willing to throw a few prospects and a roster play to Toronto for Mitch Marner. Vet, right age...Toronto has no cap room and might want to keep Nylander/sign to a long term deal. You give them some young guys, some of the valued prospects...get Marner who is KNOWN for good defensive play....I'd think about giving up a lot to make that deal at this point. Maybe its not an 'in season' thing but maybe you can swing it in the offseason.

I keep going back and forth on 2 things.... 1. Thompson and Cozens are the primary shortfall of scoring on this team. Skinner is giving you what you got last year. Mitts is too. Tuch was and has fallen off a bit but isn't a major shortfall. Peterka has more than made up for him and VO's production from last year (maybe not MORE but it is the same combined). And this team is giving up less goals per game. SO, MOST Other things are the same, its just Thompson and Cozens that need to get fixed. BUT.....then I think with the number of high draft picks on this team, the years already of development....you should NOT Have to rely on those to guys giving you 75-80 goals in a season to be good enough to make the playoffs. So, sure, Thompson and Cozens are the major difference between this year and last year....but on the other hand...It SHOULDN'T be reliant on those two players.

If you can explain to me how a new coach is going to fix the PP, Fix tage and Cozens scoring, and get the forwards to play better in their own zone, then sure. Otherwise, no..no change for the sake of change.

I understand not wanting Power to get paid early....but Power got paid early and his play isn't that great this year....Dahlin DIDN'T get paid early and his play is worse this year, especially lately. How are those related and what point are you trying to make, I don't get the correlation you are trying to make between those 2 things?

Right now the difference between this years team (and expectations for the most part) and last years team is Thompson, Cozens, and Tuch. Its not D and Goaltending. They are BETTER this year, on pace to allow 15-16 less goals this year than last. Can it and should it be better? Sure, but that is not the problem compared to last year. Offense. 3rd in the league last year, bottom 10 this year. 296 goals last, year, on pace for 239 this year. So, if the goals allowed is BETTER...well, they are 26 goals off their pace from last year. They are scoring almost 7/10s of a goal game less this year than last. So where are those 26 goals missing? -Cozens had 12 goals last year on Jan 1...this year..6 There are 6 of your goals. (1 less on the PP) -Tuch had 17 this time last year, this year he as 9 There are 8 more. (4 less on the PP) -Tage had 27 this time last year, this year 10. 17 more (10 less on the PP) There are 31 goals you are missing from last year. Skinner is right on pace from last year. Peterka is giving you more than last year, basically picking up VO's goal production from last year. Mitts is on target too. Dahlin is on pace for less points for for more goals. Almost everyone is on pace for, or doing better than last year in terms of scoring (swapping Peterk and VO), AND the team is allowing less goals per game...with the exception of those 3 guys (Cozens, Tuch, and Thompson) Can coaching be better? Sure. Do you want more from Power? Yep. Do the forward not know how to play defense in their own zone? uh huh. Do the goaltender have bad nights? Sure do.....BUT, if you had Cozens, Tage and Tuch giving you what they did last year (or even CLOSE to it) most would look good with this team. 31 goals less from those 3 guys. Change nothing esle and you are now a +10 on goal differential for the year so far. That makes you the 5th best team in the conference. Thompson. Tuch. Cozens. Fix them and this is a playoff team. They don't need to do BETTER than last year....probably not even the same...but close 60-70% of the gap between what they did last year and what they are doing this year...and you are likely in a playoffs spot now...or at least competing very closely for one. Its not just missing Grit, its not coaching (although maybe coaching the PP is a large part for the downfall in those guys). Its those guys taking a big step back in production.

I overall think Dahlin is the best player on this team. I think last year he should have gotten more Norris consideration and might have been a top 20 player in the entire league last year. HOWEVER, I agree with you as far as this year. He started out 'good' but not as good as last year. The past 2 weeks his play has taken a considerably drop. Frustration? and Injury? Who knows, but all year he has been a step behind last year's play,and the last 2 weeks he's taken another 2 steps back.

Last night is the first time this entire season that as soon as they got done a goal, I was done. I had time to watch the game, I started to watch it, but once they were losing, oh well time to find something else. No one else in the house is up yet this morning except for me so I just might watch the highlights now or the condensed game.

The more I think about it, the more I think its not JUST the HC, or JUST the scouting dept, or the Minor league staff in Rochester, or JUST the GM...but it is top to bottom, everything in this organization is bad. And if you just make one change, the leftovers from the previous regime infect everything else. If a change is going to be made, EVERYTHING needs to change. I'm not sure there is enough evidence for my next point, but I'll throw it out there anyway. When players leave Buffalo and are good enough to stick with another team (Eichel, Reinhart, even Sheary and Rodriguez), it seems that it takes them almost a full season to excel with their team. Its almost like, if they spent TOO much time in Buffalo, they learned bad habits, were taught to play the full game the wrong way...and it takes some time when they get to a new organization to actually start playing the way a well rounded player actually plays.

I'm thinking more like a conditional 7th or 'future considerations'. He isn't bringing anything to the Sabres now, and any move would be a favor to him to get him someplace different where he might play.

Its hard for most people to do that, look at this forum. When things don't go the way we want, we all come up with ideas of the moves we would make, some of them pretty drastic. Until many/most owners see proof they are making it worse, they are going to want to 'fix their own toy that they paid for'.

Edited your list slightly, that my version of it. 1 and 2 lead to the PP woes.

I have. done it probably close to 100 times over the past year where I posted during the gameday threads. Point by point, while watching the replays AND sometimes I even added screenshots to the thread. Its been done. Your welcome. Your argument is the opposite. I'll be waiting for threads where you post and comment on replays where they make stellar plays that take away chance after chance in their own end. I've done my part to prove my point.

I never thought of this but yeah, makes sense. The PK doesn't practice against a good PP so its not that good, and the PP doesn't practice against a discipline PK so its not that good, and as you said they feed on each other.

So I agree that the PP needs to be coached differently, and I certainly am not an NHL coach. But how hard should it be to not be THIS bad. Look at the teams that are successful, watch video, break it down. What do they do that you aren't doing? What do they do to 'set up' goals consistently that you aren't doing? Copy it, emulate it. Its not as if half of the league has talent that you simply don't. Dahlin has to be near the top of the league in pure talent of D-men entering the zone and controlling the back end. Skinner has to be one of the better players with footwork and hands near the net. VO and Thompson have got to both be in the top 30 in terms of one timers from the sides, and Thompson is deadly in the slot with his hands and reach and shot. Mitts is very good at controlling the puck along the boards and making a good pass from there. Quinn, Peterka and Tuch are kinda a PP jack of all trades...they may not be as good as any of the above players at one thing, but all are decent at any of them. Its not a lack of pure talent on this team, as you said it has to be coaching. Fix it.

You along with a few others get it. Are the D-men great? No they aren't great, but when you watch the goals allowed, look 5-10 seconds before the goals are allowed, and watch the play develop, the D-men on this team aren't as bad as they look, the forwards, many times the younger guys, are AWFUL. They chase the puck when they shouldn't, leaving opposing players uncovered or areas of the ice wide open for opposing players to step into (Cozens, looking at you mostly here). They hang around the blue line instead of taking guys in the slot or the faceoff circles, and do the 'stick wave' at them when simply a LITTLE physical contact might disrupt them (Krebs, Peterka, and Benson, YES the Benson that many THINK is a great 2 way player....looking at you pretty hard here). Its the vets also, but the young guys should be learning this now and they aren't. I'm arguing with a few people on this board who want to just slam their narrative down everyone's throat or use their 'fancy stats' to prove a point, but the proof is there. LOOK at the goals or major opportunities this team allows...NHL.com has all the replays. Watch the bad choices the forwards make, even the young guys that are the current favorites, they are bad. They need to get better. When the D-men look bad it is because they have to often cover their own area of the ice and areas of the ice that the forwards should be taking but they aren't. Many of the vets up front aren't better. Mitts, Tage, and Tuch have good moments and bad moments. Skinner seems alergic to going deep into his own zone to help out and instead prefers to slam on the breaks at the blue line before entering his own zone. Okposo for all his 'experience' apparently doesn't have much experience playing well in his own zone, and Cozens often time causes more problems in his own end than someone who 'just exists' there like VO. But the young guys, they should be/should have gotten better instruction in Roch, or shouldn't be on the big club taking in just how bad everyone else is in their own end. I don't know if its a directive from above or the Development coaches/Rochester coaches are just clueless, but that needs to change.

Peterka might be the best of the bunch, but I have posted NUMEROUS times on Sabres goals allowed how he kinda floats in his own end and several times where he does the stick wave at a defender. Benson? Let me use your own logic on Benson...just because saying over and over he is one of the best 2 way players on the team does NOT make it true, despite it fitting your argument. Is he better than some rookies, yes, but again, go back and look at goals scored against this team, in his own end he has a LOT to learn, lots of times I posted about replays of goals allowed where he floated, where he had a chance to pick up the goal scorer or the guy with the primary assist that he didn't. Again, hes not the BEST example, but he certainly could be/would be a lot better with more experience and, like a LOT Of guys, if they received proper defensive zone training in their own end, would be a lot more of an asset to this team. The replays are there. Go watch about 20 goals the Sabres allow...you will see mistakes made all over the place that many other teams don't make as much, and a lot of that could/would be fixed with better coaching/more experience with better coaching.

Dahlin was FANTASTIC his rookie year? Hard, super hard disagree on that. We must have a different definition of the word Fantastic. Of course he was going to play here, but that doesn't mean he was a major asset to the team at that time. Just as you say, the Sabres aren't rushing players to the NHL, No matter how much we want that narrative to be true... I say they HAVE played other players in the NHL when they're not fully ready.... No matter how much you don't want that narrative to be true. Part of the problem with this team though is that young guys are playing and not responsible Defensively. Power is not good enough to be playing 25 minutes some nights, neither Sameulson. As I mentioned, Krebs was not ready at all to be playing in the NHL. Some of the other young guys are decent, what's not kid ourselves into thinking they are "good". Quinn, Peterka, Benson, might be good enough to play in the NHL if needed, but if this team had some above average veterans that will be willing to sign here, they might be better off than playing all three of them last year or this year. They're not 30 goal scorers yet, and there are plenty of times in their own end where they're out of position or waving their sticks at the eventual goal scorers. It's not a coincidence that this team makes a lot of mistakes, is unbelievably inconsistent night to night, allows goals where the opposing team walks into wide open spots in the slot or primary scoring positions , and they're the youngest team in the NHL. With more development, good coaching while developed at a lower level... Or probably both, that doesn't happen as much. Personally, I'm forgiving young players a shot and not bringing in veterans. But I also understand when you do that it might take years of development for those young guys. Maybe the Sabres do it out of necessity, they can't get prime free agents to sign here or even agree to trades here. So they're forced to play the young guys. But sometimes bringing in a veteran or two who is average-to-above average might be better than being the youngest team in the league seemingly year after year.

I don't know what can change that will make this team good right now. I like what Granatohas done, and I really like him as a coach and I'm sick of changing coaches. I don't want him gone, but at some point.... When are the forwards going to learn to play a full game? They obviously don't. And by the way that starts down in Rochester. If you make a coaching change you got to clean house everywhere. I don't want the top 3-4 guys on defense to change. Dahlin, Power, and Samuelson I think are going to be a great... Not a good, but a great top three that will be able to control games from the back end. BUT... With a couple exceptions defenseman don't hit their prime until their middle till late 20s. Those three might form an elite defensive unit, but it's not going to happen for a few more years. The forwards? For this team to go tage Thompson has to score 40 to 50. He's great, but is he that great where you can rely on him for that? Cozens is likable, he's full of energy, he has talent, but honestly he has been pretty bad this year, he's a train wreck in his own end, he needs to be a lot better. Tuch and Skinner are what they are.... When Tage is going they are good enough wingers to form a great first line, but you need Tage healthy and he has to be on the top of his game. Last year kids line... Maybe when they are back together and fully healthy that gets Cozens going? Mitts... Is he good? Is he going to be here next year? Is he good when he is facing bottom paired defenseman but can you rely on him for more than that? It's frustrating. I really do believe the top three guys on defense can be the core of a very good to great team. But I believe that Power is not playing good right now and I think those three guys need a couple more years to reach their peak. The forwards have to carry this team in the meantime, but there's just too many questions, too many things you can't rely on with them, and they either have to learn or before us to learn how to play in their own end. The main difference between this team this year and last year...it comes down to three things: Tage, Cozens, and the power play. If those two players and the power play in general were performing at the rate that they were last year.... Most of the problems of this team would be gone. Statistically they account for seemingly 90% of the shortcomings. But was last year an anomaly? The power place certainly needs to be better.