Who Are the Sabres Untouchables, with the Trade Deadline approaching?

[Bmwolf21]

Sounds to me like you are just fine with having an Ottawa Senators-type team - all skill, little grit. Personally, I think you're confusing mental toughness with physical toughness. Mental toughness is what keeps teams from throwing in the towel when they are down late in the game. Physical toughness is being able to take a hit, to knock guys down in front of the net, to stand in and make a pass knowing that you're going to get hit.

 

Again, no one is saying go get some knuckle draggers to throw sucker punches or spend the night chasing guys down - we want to see our guys take the physical play to the other team for once. The guys on the roster now, save Mair, Peters & Gaustad, can't/won't do that on a regular basis. I was completely disgusted with how soft the Sabres played against the Blue Jackets - seeing it in person really highlights how the guys peel off their checks, don't get physical in front of the net, etc.

 

As for last year - I don't remember each game individually, but I sure don't remember complaining about their effort for almost two straight months.

 

Guerin? Made it to the playoffs, was 3-1-4 in 5 GP. Not his fault the Stars got bounced by the Avs 4-1. Hill? Languished on a terrible Panthers team that didn't make the playoffs.

[Kristian]

 

Well you're flat-out wrong here. Last year, even with the vaunted McKee and Grier in the lineup, the Sabres suffered 3 slumps. One in October, January, and March.

 

If you compare last year's team on February 1st to this year's team, this year's team is better at this time of the year.

 

 

I was making a remark concerning this teams work ethic this year compared to last year, I don't recall mentioning any slumps?

 

Yes they have a better record this year, but I'm getting pretty tired of people using the no. of W's to goat me into believing The Sabres have deserved to win all those games. I can count a ton of games where they showed up for 15 minutes, which just as it happens turned out to win the game. That was in October and November though, curiously enough W's don't seem to come so easy anymore. 15 minutes will get you nowhere in the playoffs. Last seasons Sabres knew this. Does this seasons Sabres?

 

So The Sabres have a better record this year? Fair enough and very true. But how exactly does this translate into this them working harder than last year? For the billionth time - I am questioning the effort, not the number of wins. Which I why I think goaltending is the least of our concerns.

 

 

So the Sabres should skate around looking to get hit? In the neutral zone?

 

 

 

No, they should skate around, looking to make a play. But I guess just handing over the puck to the opposition is better then?

 

Guess you haven't watched our D deep in our own zone lately? Forwards chase them down all the time to hit them. Could this have something to do with them being more worried about getting hit than the average D? I think so, but you're of course allowed to disagree.

 

Sadly this goes for the forwards too, be it in the neutral zone, their own zone, or the offensive zone.

[Two or less]

I would not be suprised if they dealt a Stafford or MacArthur and a lower prospect.... i know it's alot and in the long run we might give up too much, but this is our season and if that gets us the cup, i think Regier will do the deal.

 

Novotny also i could see packaged with a prospect for a bigger name.

 

Other then that, noone. I think they will get another defensman for depth.

[LabattBlue]

I would not be suprised if they dealt a Stafford or MacArthur and a lower prospect.... i know it's alot and in the long run we might give up too much, but this is our season and if that gets us the cup, i think Regier will do the deal.

 

Novotny also i could see packaged with a prospect for a bigger name.

 

Other then that, noone. I think they will get another defensman for depth.

I would not give up Stafford for a "rent a player".

[jad1]

Sounds to me like you are just fine with having an Ottawa Senators-type team - all skill, little grit. Personally, I think you're confusing mental toughness with physical toughness. Mental toughness is what keeps teams from throwing in the towel when they are down late in the game. Physical toughness is being able to take a hit, to knock guys down in front of the net, to stand in and make a pass knowing that you're going to get hit.

 

Well then you completely miss my point. I believe the Sabres have enough grit on the team right now to succeed in the playoffs. Even though they were outshot, and in some cases outhit by the Senators last season, they consistently made the big plays and big goals to wipe the Senators out.

 

In the defensive end, the Sabres don't play in the corners, they collapse in front of the net and take away the passing lanes. They don't knock guys out of the crease, they block shots. They then take the intercepted passes, blocked shots, and rebounds and transition them down the ice.

 

That's how the Sabres win games, in the transition game. They've won over 80 games over the last two seasons and 11 playoff games playing that style.

 

It's amazing how many fans still refuse to recognize that and hope they become more physical. Crying over Mckee? Give me a break. McKee was a soldier no doubt, but he was a shot blocker, not a crease clearer. Grier? He's a steady player, but he's no Bertuzzi type player.

 

Here's my point. Who's the more phyically intimidating player, Chara or Tallinder? Would have traded Chara for Tallinder in last year's Ottawa series?

 

And as for taking a hit to make a play on offense, with 199 goals on the season (and counting) I find it hard to believe that the Sabres have avoided contact to make plays this year.

 

Again, no one is saying go get some knuckle draggers to throw sucker punches or spend the night chasing guys down - we want to see our guys take the physical play to the other team for once. The guys on the roster now, save Mair, Peters & Gaustad, can't/won't do that on a regular basis. I was completely disgusted with how soft the Sabres played against the Blue Jackets - seeing it in person really highlights how the guys peel off their checks, don't get physical in front of the net, etc.

 

It was one game in which the Sabres did not show up. They've also had some pretty impressive wins this season against some good teams.

 

Judging the Sabres roster based on one game in Columbus in January (even if you were able to attend the game) is unfair.

 

It would be akin to judging the Sabres roster after they got blown out by San Jose at home last year, or when they were crushed by the leafs. They also had a few more blowout/shutout losses last year (I've burned the details of those game from my brain).

 

As for last year - I don't remember each game individually, but I sure don't remember complaining about their effort for almost two straight months.

 

In the last 2 months the Sabres have beaten the Predators, Canes, Devils, Thrashers, Canucks, Capitals, and Leafs. The NHL is a parity-filled league. My advice is to focus more on the result and ignore the style points.

 

Guerin? Made it to the playoffs, was 3-1-4 in 5 GP. Not his fault the Stars got bounced by the Avs 4-1. Hill? Languished on a terrible Panthers team that didn't make the playoffs.

 

He was also a -2 in the playoffs last year, but I'm sure it wasn't his fault, even though he was one of the leaders of a team that choked against the Avs.

[jad1]

I was making a remark concerning this teams work ethic this year compared to last year, I don't recall mentioning any slumps?

 

Yes they have a better record this year, but I'm getting pretty tired of people using the no. of W's to goat me into believing The Sabres have deserved to win all those games. I can count a ton of games where they showed up for 15 minutes, which just as it happens turned out to win the game. That was in October and November though, curiously enough W's don't seem to come so easy anymore. 15 minutes will get you nowhere in the playoffs. Last seasons Sabres knew this. Does this seasons Sabres?

 

In a response above, I've pointed out that over the last two months, the Sabres have beaten the Devils, Preds, Hurricanes, Thrashers, Canucks, Leafs and Lightning. They have scored 7 or more goals in 7 games. They lead the league with 200 goals for.

 

Now if they've been able to do all these things with only 15 minutes of effort, as you claim, well I would have to say that the Sabres must have the greatest assembly of talent since Gretzky's Oilers.

 

So what are the expectations? No slumps? It would be nice, but unrealistic. Every team in the league has slumped at one point or another this season. Outshoot every team they play? Well they were outshot by Philly when they beat them 9-1, does that mean the effort wasn't there? Outhit the opposing team? Hardly, the Sabres aren't that type of team. If they lost every time they were outhit, they'd have 20 wins over the last two years instead of the 80 plus they've posted.

 

I looked at the standings a couple of days ago, and there was 12 points separating the 4th seed in the Eastern Conference from the 14th seed. With the amount of parity in the league, it's unrealistic to expect a team to dominate every minute of every game. Even the so-called doormats like Florida and Boston have guys that can hurt a team.

 

So The Sabres have a better record this year? Fair enough and very true. But how exactly does this translate into this them working harder than last year? For the billionth time - I am questioning the effort, not the number of wins. Which I why I think goaltending is the least of our concerns.

No, they should skate around, looking to make a play. But I guess just handing over the puck to the opposition is better then?

 

No doubt the effort has been way down during this recent skid. They've had trouble with the Sens and Canadiens (who, by the way, are pretty good teams), but if you're telling me I should be doubting the Sabres effort after they beat the Canes 4-1, I'll have to call your expectations unrealistic.

 

I'll gladly take 30 or 40 ho-hum wins. I don't mind watching Miller or Biron steal a game. I know that there are other factors in a game (hot goalie, hungry rookies, a guy playing in front of his family, bad ref) that might prevent the Sabres from racking up another 7 goal game. It's a cliche, but a good team wins when they aren't at their best or when they face adversity.

 

Guess you haven't watched our D deep in our own zone lately? Forwards chase them down all the time to hit them. Could this have something to do with them being more worried about getting hit than the average D? I think so, but you're of course allowed to disagree.

 

Sadly this goes for the forwards too, be it in the neutral zone, their own zone, or the offensive zone.

 

Again, nobody on this team has looked all that good lately. It's a slump, just like the ones they experienced last year.

[ko12010]

It didn't take long for the name calling did it?

 

Try reading this in depth article from the Buffalo News which talks about concerns about Millers pshyce and how he is his own worst enemy.

 

I have to wonder if you watched hockey last year with some of your comments. Gerber collapsed near the end of last season and almost got Carolina eliminated from the playoffs. He lost the first 2 home playoff games and was pulled for Cam Ward. I live in NC and belive me no one here is on their knees for him. I do not think Ottawa fans are either.

 

Miller was brilliant in last years playoffs, especially against Ottawa, but this year he does not even crack the top 10 in GAA or Save%. My point is that goalies can go bad, just liker Gerber last year and struggle to regain form. Miller is struggling now (or haven't you seen him play the last month?) and that is why he is being "rested" (benched?) for a couple of games.

 

My whole point is that we are fortunate that we have an experienced, capable backup, should we need to call on him for whatever reason. With a team built to contend for the cup this year, trading Biron for picks and prospects, or for a cheaper and perhaps less capable player would be absurd. The time to trade Marty was in the offseason. He is not going anywhere now.

 

 

 

I actually watch every Sabres game and also who got Carolina to the playoffs in the first place? Gerber had a great year. But Gerber aside I am just wondering why you are comparing Miller to Gerber.

[Bmwolf21]

Well then you completely miss my point. I believe the Sabres have enough grit on the team right now to succeed in the playoffs. Even though they were outshot, and in some cases outhit by the Senators last season, they consistently made the big plays and big goals to wipe the Senators out.

 

In the defensive end, the Sabres don't play in the corners, they collapse in front of the net and take away the passing lanes. They don't knock guys out of the crease, they block shots. They then take the intercepted passes, blocked shots, and rebounds and transition them down the ice.

 

That's how the Sabres win games, in the transition game. They've won over 80 games over the last two seasons and 11 playoff games playing that style.

You pretty much described how the Sabres played last year, but this year hasn't been the same at all. For large portions of the season, this team has tried to rely on out-finessing the opposition, with too many pretty passes, highlight plays, etc. When is the last time you saw any Sabre deliberately drop in front of a shot? Likewise, teams are trying to take away the Sabres' breakout/transition passes, making them carry, dump & chase, and when they have to do that, they have trouble in the corners, along the walls, etc.

As for Ottawa, the reason why the Sabres were able to beat them was that the Sabres got into their heads. When the Sabres finally beat them in the regular season, it shook the Sens confidence, and the comeback 7-6 win destroyed whatever confidence they had left. I don't doubt that the guys that are still here are tenacious and mentally tough enough to keep pushing, but in terms of being physical and having to fight their way through the playoffs - I just don't see it. This roster is completely different in terms of grit and physicality.

 

It's amazing how many fans still refuse to recognize that and hope they become more physical. Crying over Mckee? Give me a break. McKee was a soldier no doubt, but he was a shot blocker, not a crease clearer. Grier? He's a steady player, but he's no Bertuzzi type player.

 

Here's my point. Who's the more phyically intimidating player, Chara or Tallinder? Would have traded Chara for Tallinder in last year's Ottawa series?

McKee and Grier were a big part of the physical aspect of the roster. Regardless of their meager offensive contributions, or the fact that they weren't Foote or Bertuzzi, they at least forced opponents to account for them if they started trying to get too physical with the Sabres. Now, with them gone, no one has stepped up and taken over the physical role, and it shows.

 

And as for taking a hit to make a play on offense, with 199 goals on the season (and counting) I find it hard to believe that the Sabres have avoided contact to make plays this year.

It was one game in which the Sabres did not show up. They've also had some pretty impressive wins this season against some good teams.

 

Judging the Sabres roster based on one game in Columbus in January (even if you were able to attend the game) is unfair.

Except this wasn't one isolated game. EVERYONE has been coming at this team physically, and they've pretty much announced it to the media before and after, and they still cannot handle it.

 

It would be akin to judging the Sabres roster after they got blown out by San Jose at home last year, or when they were crushed by the leafs. They also had a few more blowout/shutout losses last year (I've burned the details of those game from my brain).

In the last 2 months the Sabres have beaten the Predators, Canes, Devils, Thrashers, Canucks, Capitals, and Leafs. The NHL is a parity-filled league. My advice is to focus more on the result and ignore the style points.

Sorry, not buying the "parity" argument. We also got beat by teams we are clearly more talented than - the Bruins, Blue Jackets and the Islanders.

After the way we went deep in the playoffs last year, expectations changed. Not only do we all expect them to dominate and be at the top of the standings, we also expect them to put in the effort every night. We can handle slumps if they are performance based - guys stop scoring, Miller hits a rut, whatever - but we cannot excuse poor effort. This team has yet to develop any sort of consistency this year. You can't say just look at the results, because the style of play they seemed to have patented over the last few months will get them bounced from the postseason early. Period.

He was also a -2 in the playoffs last year, but I'm sure it wasn't his fault, even though he was one of the leaders of a team that choked against the Avs.

Because the playoffs come down to one forward in a 5-game series. Guerin led the Stars in goals in that series. Their loss had nothing to do with Turco posting a 3.39 GAA or .868 SV%, or just one Star having a positive +/-, or Arnott being held to 3 A and a -1...

[jad1]

You pretty much described how the Sabres played last year, but this year hasn't been the same at all. For large portions of the season, this team has tried to rely on out-finessing the opposition, with too many pretty passes, highlight plays, etc. When is the last time you saw any Sabre deliberately drop in front of a shot? Likewise, teams are trying to take away the Sabres' breakout/transition passes, making them carry, dump & chase, and when they have to do that, they have trouble in the corners, along the walls, etc.

 

Paestch's shot block Tuesday wasn't good enough for you? I completely disagree with your assessment that their game is different from last year.

 

As for Ottawa, the reason why the Sabres were able to beat them was that the Sabres got into their heads. When the Sabres finally beat them in the regular season, it shook the Sens confidence, and the comeback 7-6 win destroyed whatever confidence they had left. I don't doubt that the guys that are still here are tenacious and mentally tough enough to keep pushing, but in terms of being physical and having to fight their way through the playoffs - I just don't see it. This roster is completely different in terms of grit and physicality.

 

Again, how do you account for their success then? They busted the trap against the Devils. The Canes tried to trap them and lost. The Leafs tried to play them physically and lost, all in the last two months. The Preds tried to skate with them were run out of their own building.

 

The fact is that the Sabres, when they're moving their legs, are an extremely difficult team to beat.

 

McKee and Grier were a big part of the physical aspect of the roster. Regardless of their meager offensive contributions, or the fact that they weren't Foote or Bertuzzi, they at least forced opponents to account for them if they started trying to get too physical with the Sabres. Now, with them gone, no one has stepped up and taken over the physical role, and it shows.

 

Again, I don't agree. The Sabres have dressed Peters in many of the recent losses. His only real job is to be the enforcer. It hasn't detered teams from playing physical.

 

Except this wasn't one isolated game. EVERYONE has been coming at this team physically, and they've pretty much announced it to the media before and after, and they still cannot handle it.

Sorry, not buying the "parity" argument. We also got beat by teams we are clearly more talented than - the Bruins, Blue Jackets and the Islanders.

 

As I have pointed out, they have also beaten some solid, playoff-caliber teams over the stretch of the last two months. You've chosen to ignore these wins to make your point.

 

After the way we went deep in the playoffs last year, expectations changed. Not only do we all expect them to dominate and be at the top of the standings, we also expect them to put in the effort every night. We can handle slumps if they are performance based - guys stop scoring, Miller hits a rut, whatever - but we cannot excuse poor effort. This team has yet to develop any sort of consistency this year. You can't say just look at the results, because the style of play they seemed to have patented over the last few months will get them bounced from the postseason early. Period.

 

I don't doubt that expectations have changed. For some, they've become completely unrealistic.

 

Like many, I wish the Sabres would only face shallow slumps completely attributed to bad luck. But this isn't fantasy land. For some reason, in middle of season, teams lose their edge either mentally or physically. It's happened to every team in the league for one reason or another. No doubt the Sabres fans want the team to rebound as quickly as possible and get back on track.

 

It's not an excuse, it's a fact, it happens in the NHL.

 

Because the playoffs come down to one forward in a 5-game series. Guerin led the Stars in goals in that series. Their loss had nothing to do with Turco posting a 3.39 GAA or .868 SV%, or just one Star having a positive +/-, or Arnott being held to 3 A and a -1...

 

I'm not the one advocating bringing in a physical player to motivate the rest of the team because of losses to inferior opponents. Seems to me that Guerin should have had that role in the playoffs last year. I guess that's why Dallas let him walk this season.

[Bmwolf21]

Paestch's shot block Tuesday wasn't good enough for you? I completely disagree with your assessment that their game is different from last year.

Last year there were guys constantly dropping in front of shots. Now it is a once-in-a-blue moon affair.

 

Again, how do you account for their success then? They busted the trap against the Devils. The Canes tried to trap them and lost. The Leafs tried to play them physically and lost, all in the last two months. The Preds tried to skate with them were run out of their own building.

 

The fact is that the Sabres, when they're moving their legs, are an extremely difficult team to beat.

I don't disagree at all. The problem is that there have been very few games this year where they have dictated the tempo of the game, and made teams try to keep up with them.

Again, I don't agree. The Sabres have dressed Peters in many of the recent losses. His only real job is to be the enforcer. It hasn't detered teams from playing physical.

There is a difference between a gritty, physical player who brings toughness to the lineup, and a one-trick pony like Peters. Peters scares no one when his butt is nailed to the bench for 59 minutes per game.

As I have pointed out, they have also beaten some solid, playoff-caliber teams over the stretch of the last two months. You've chosen to ignore these wins to make your point.

And you have disregarded the crappy teams we have lost to in order to make yours. Is this team a legitimate Cup contender? If so, I think they should be more focused more often, and should have better results against inferior teams.

I don't doubt that expectations have changed. For some, they've become completely unrealistic.

 

Like many, I wish the Sabres would only face shallow slumps completely attributed to bad luck. But this isn't fantasy land. For some reason, in middle of season, teams lose their edge either mentally or physically. It's happened to every team in the league for one reason or another. No doubt the Sabres fans want the team to rebound as quickly as possible and get back on track.

 

It's not an excuse, it's a fact, it happens in the NHL.

I don't have a problem with the occasional slump, lost mental edge, whatever. But they have been struggling with playing down to their opponents' levels for the better part of two months now. Their struggles are not a recent thing, nor is it just a few games. They have been very fortunate to win as many games as they have, but I don't think that will work in the playoffs.

 

I'm not the one advocating bringing in a physical player to motivate the rest of the team because of losses to inferior opponents. Seems to me that Guerin should have had that role in the playoffs last year. I guess that's why Dallas let him walk this season.

Close, but not quite. Guerin was released as a cap casualty. As for the playoffs, I guess he should have been a 1-man show, and figured out how to get his goalie to stop some shots, and how to get Arnott to show up, and on and on and on...

 

Yes, I would absolutely love to see him in a Sluggalo uniform. I think he could help a lot with the team's general toughness, add some grit, and add some veteran leadership. But I am not married to the idea of bringing Guerin in - there are probably a half-dozen veteran leaders that could be added at the trade deadline to shore up this team heading into the playoffs.

 

We can go back & forth on this all night, but what it all boils down to is this: I think they definitely need to juggle the roster a little, and bring in some guys that can help with the leadership, grit and focus. Where do you stand on this team and their playoff chances?

[bob_sauve28]

I'm firmly in the Drury camp, but I wouldn't want to see either of them leave at this point. I think it will depend on whether Darcy & co. feel they can re-sign them both.

 

As for the untouchables, I like the OP's list, although I would put Max right on the border of being untouchable. It would have to be a really sweet deal to get us to trade Max at this point.

I have to say that I'd make Max my number one trading option. He would draw a lot in return and he's didn't come through in the playoffs last year. Any team would love to have him, he packs the people in. I'm not really sure what I'd like to add to the team at this point, but I don't think Max is an untouchable.