LastPommerFan Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 But those "selective set of data points" you mention are the very "clutch games" I speak of. What is dishonest here is the way you attempt to make it a personal issue. If people get "down" over someones opinion on an NHL hockey goalie might I suggest some help be sought out. I make no mistake in formulating my opinion, and this specific subject should in no way affect how individuals view other subjects I may so choose to chime in on. There is no mistake here, and what you attempt to say here in all actuality devalues MY input on a subject. I will not be moved by disenting opinions from my own view. I see it as it is, not as I wish it to be, if that were the case, we'd all be more than happy with Miller between the pipes, but as it stands, not all fans are happy with that decision, and for their own, various reasons. Some coincide with my own, many however, do not. While I appreciate the compliment of my input on other levels, I fail to understand how my views on this subject based on my opinion are anything but that, my views and opinions. A message board, afterall, is a great place to discuss subjects, in this case, the Sabres. Like I said, I stand firm on my convictions with regards to this subject. I understand it's your opinion. I'm telling you your opinion was formed on bad assumptions and is wrong. I'm trying to guide you past this error and into a clearer starting point for the "who should start in net" discussion, which could be valuable. I'm not saying your opinion brings people down emotionally, I'm saying it brings people down intellectually because it is based on terrible false assumptions. Your data set of high pressure games is incomplete. It is ONLY the subset of high pressure games that Ryan Miller has Started in Net and his team has lost. It ignores at least half a dozen high pressure games that Ryan miller has started in net and his team has won. It further ignores the impact of his play on those games. I continue to labor this point because I am convinced I can improve your ability to analyze the situation and draw conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 HopefulFuture can I ask you how many clutch games Hasek choked in while he was here for such a brief period of time? It's a moot point. Hasek doesn't have the consistent technique to be an elite goalie at the NHL level. When the going gets tough he just flops around in the crease. :wallbash: This is fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 HopefulFuture can I ask you how many clutch games Hasek choked in while he was here for such a brief period of time? He was here for 8 seasons, I hardly call that "a brief period of time". And while the famous Kelley vs Hasek fiasco surely cost us the series that year, I wouldn't even imagine putting Miller anywhere near the same catagory as Hasek, who, by the way, willed this team to a game 6 Stanley Cup Finals and was the overwhelming reason they were in that position to begin with. I view the game 6 "no goal" call as the catalyst for the failure that season, even with the immense amount of pressure on him in both games 6 of the series as well as throughout the season. Another apples to oranges scenario, but the point is made, he did blow that series with his suspension for us that season Muckler and Nolan went at it. In my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 He was here for 8 seasons, I hardly call that "a brief period of time". And while the famous Kelley vs Hasek fiasco surely cost us the series that year, I wouldn't even imagine putting Miller anywhere near the same catagory as Hasek, who, by the way, willed this team to a game 6 Stanley Cup Finals and was the overwhelming reason they were in that position to begin with. I view the game 6 "no goal" call as the catalyst for the failure that season, even with the immense amount of pressure on him in both games 6 of the series as well as throughout the season. Another apples to oranges scenario, but the point is made, he did blow that series with his suspension for us that season Muckler and Nolan went at it. In my opinion. Now you have a problem with your method. You've moved beyond your false assumptions and are applying different standards to different players. For example, Miller willed the United States to the Gold Medal Game and was the overwhelming reason they were in that position to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I understand it's your opinion. I'm telling you your opinion was formed on bad assumptions and is wrong. I'm trying to guide you past this error and into a clearer starting point for the "who should start in net" discussion, which could be valuable. I'm not saying your opinion brings people down emotionally, I'm saying it brings people down intellectually because it is based on terrible false assumptions. Your data set of high pressure games is incomplete. It is ONLY the subset of high pressure games that Ryan Miller has Started in Net and his team has lost. It ignores at least half a dozen high pressure games that Ryan miller has started in net and his team has won. It further ignores the impact of his play on those games. I continue to labor this point because I am convinced I can improve your ability to analyze the situation and draw conclusions. I merely put my views and opinions out there to start the discussion off, not to be the epicenter of a larger debate on them. I was looking for multiple board members to chime in and see what their thoughts on the subject were. In no way was the original OP meant to take up 7 pages of the board. And once again, there is no error in my thinking. There is a definition for futility, and in my view it's sitting between the pipes in Buffalo, has been for 6 seasons now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Now you have a problem with your method. You've moved beyond your false assumptions and are applying different standards to different players. For example, Miller willed the United States to the Gold Medal Game and was the overwhelming reason they were in that position to begin with. I don't disagree with your assesment that Miller got them to the Gold Medal game. My methods are just fine. You will not find a ###### in this armor, no matter how hard you attempt to hit it with hammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Are u retarded? Say this isn't a hate on miller thread then say nothing good and say we should trade him?!? Get the f out of here. I'm talking about yourself and ur ideas. Trading him would leave us no decent backup. Are u crazy? Hopeful Future: I argue with you because you have hope, as opposed to this poster, who has no hope of improving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Hopeful Future: I argue with you because you have hope, as opposed to this poster, who has no hope of improving. I understand, and I appreciate all of the conversation. It's enjoyable to see the passion in the fans, and also to see how there are those, just like myself, who are steadfast in their opinion. And I too, enjoy the back and forth, we could go player by player on the roster ya know, wouldn't that drive people crazy :w00t: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Hopeful Future: I argue with you because you have hope, as opposed to this poster, who has no hope of improving. Agreed. At least there is reasonable discussion as opposed to poo flinging. (Although who doesn't like flinging some poo every once in a while :thumbsup: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just logged on for the first time today and lo and behold I see the thread I expected to see. So this is now going to be a Flutie/Johnson thing all year again. Everyone wanted a capable backup, now that we have one, many of you want him to start. I guess its just like the say, "The favorite player on the team is the backup goalie/quarterback". The entire discussion is moot, because Pegula will never let Regier get rid of Miller. Pegula loves this team, these players and I believe he knows that Miller is not the problem with this team. Miller has won more games by himself than we have lost because of him. Its funny after the Montreal game and Florida shutout he was perceived as the greatest. Now a bad goal, maybe 2 bad goals and he's fodder. What we really need is scoring from more than just the top line, that's the problem, not Miller. The only thing that should happen as far as goaltending is Ruff needs to play Miller only about 55 games and Enroth about 25 or so. But you guys just go on with your anti-Miller crusade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmobiler97 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just logged on for the first time today and lo and behold I see the thread I expected to see. So this is now going to be a Flutie/Johnson thing all year again. Everyone wanted a capable backup, now that we have one, many of you want him to start. I guess its just like the say, "The favorite player on the team is the backup goalie/quarterback". The entire discussion is moot, because Pegula will never let Regier get rid of Miller. Pegula loves this team, these players and I believe he knows that Miller is not the problem with this team. Miller has won more games by himself than we have lost because of him. Its funny after the Montreal game and Florida shutout he was perceived as the greatest. Now a bad goal, maybe 2 bad goals and he's fodder. What we really need is scoring from more than just the top line, that's the problem, not Miller. The only thing that should happen as far as goaltending is Ruff needs to play Miller only about 55 games and Enroth about 25 or so. But you guys just go on with your anti-Miller crusade... Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCBuffalo Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 "This is not a hate on Miller thread," then you do so for the remainder of your post. :clapping: I'd prefer Enroth do it over a longer period than just 18 games before I make a franchise altering decision on him. Well played mauer! :clapping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 We should all be discussing Grags/Weber before we talk Miller/Enroth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I understand, and I appreciate all of the conversation. It's enjoyable to see the passion in the fans, and also to see how there are those, just like myself, who are steadfast in their opinion. And I too, enjoy the back and forth, we could go player by player on the roster ya know, wouldn't that drive people crazy :w00t: Ironic choice of words considering who the subject of this debate is. I believe as you consider the things we have discussed here, that you can soften your position on Miller in high pressure games, and still maintain that trading him for center depth would be a good move despite the risk. I'm more conservative on this point, but it is a reasonable suggestion. For what it's worth, I'm torn between giving miller the weekend off, and throwing him right back out there on Friday. He has been off for about a week, but there are other, bigger problems with the play of the team. Beyond that, I believe the best chance the Sabres have to win the cup is with Miller Between the pipes. This team will improve, and Miller will be a key part of that improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMatrix31 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 The backup is always the most popular person on the team. Enroth has been fantastic, but rather than butt heads and throw out hyperbole about Miller and our "doomed team", let's feel blessed that we have two damn good goalies that can go on any given night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 We should all be discussing Grags/Weber before we talk Miller/Enroth. From what I saw from Weber last night, I don't think there is any discussion... Weber needs to stay in the lineup. The physical force that he brought was much needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 The backup is always the most popular person on the team. Enroth has been fantastic, but rather than butt heads and throw out hyperbole about Miller and our "doomed team", let's feel blessed that we have two damn good goalies that can go on any given night. Nobody doomed the team. I am of the mind they will finish in the 4 to 6 spot in the east. I don't see them capturing the Northeast division, but then again, ya never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 We should all be discussing Grags/Weber before we talk Miller/Enroth. That's exactly what we should be discussing. Weber looked a little rough in the beginning (then again, who didn't), but played well later. He should definitely be in there instead of MAG. Not really sure how he beat out Weber to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donteatyellowsnow Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Just logged on for the first time today and lo and behold I see the thread I expected to see. So this is now going to be a Flutie/Johnson thing all year again. Everyone wanted a capable backup, now that we have one, many of you want him to start. I guess its just like the say, "The favorite player on the team is the backup goalie/quarterback". The entire discussion is moot, because Pegula will never let Regier get rid of Miller. Pegula loves this team, these players and I believe he knows that Miller is not the problem with this team. Miller has won more games by himself than we have lost because of him. Its funny after the Montreal game and Florida shutout he was perceived as the greatest. Now a bad goal, maybe 2 bad goals and he's fodder. What we really need is scoring from more than just the top line, that's the problem, not Miller. The only thing that should happen as far as goaltending is Ruff needs to play Miller only about 55 games and Enroth about 25 or so. But you guys just go on with your anti-Miller crusade... I don't believe this to be true at all. Way way too many bad goals game in and game out over his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 i say we have two quality goalies... if i was lindy, i would play the hot hand by rewarding a win with getting the next start, that goalie would play until a loss, then i would switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Can't prove me wrong? That's what I figured. People like u are like that Although it's against my better judgement, let us breakdown what I am supposed to prove wrong? Shall we? Am I retarded? Ok, let's break it down and try and prove you wrong, shall we? Let's see, Buffalo Sabres fan posts his opinions on an Enroth vs Miller comparison and expresses facts and opinions (formulated by the facts, and yes, some bias here, by the inability of Miller to perform in season/series/tournament ending games) in a reasonably intellegent manner....... Answer, no, I am not retarded....... Say it's not a hate on Miller thread, then say nothing good and say we should trade him. Breakdown, I believe I stated he is a slightly above average goalie who fails to perform in those "must win, clutch games". And then suggest that I'd go with Enroth and maximize my offensive returns (i.e. stud centerman) via a trade of Ryan Miller either standalone or in a package deal. Answer, doesn't appear to be anything to be proven wrong on, but I might be missing something here, help me, give me particulars when it comes to this line. Get the f out of here, I'm talking about you and your ideas. Breakdown, I can't believe you would actually say start Enroth and trade Miller, you must be an idiot. You have no idea what your talking about. Do you realize what Ryan Miller means to this team, for our future hopes for a Cup (atleast I am hoping you think for a Stanley Cup and don't have some type of man love thing for him, maybe it's his long hair or his eyes with you, who knows). Answer, yes, you can believe I stated that was my opinion, because I did. And why should a coherant poster get the f out of here? Well, not proven wrong here, atleast opinion wise, however, if, as some have pointed out, this were to happen and the trade did not infact garner us a return of equal or lesser value to the overall goal of the team, then I'd be proven wrong. Tell ya what, we'll get back to this one as I don't see Miller playing out the remainder of his contract here. It may not be this season, or even next, but I think they trade him before the end of this contract, just call it a hunch is all. And finally, trading him would leave us with no decent backup, are you crazy? Actually a 2 parter, but since this post is already unbelievably long, let's combine the 2, ok? No, I'm not crazy, it only appears that way to some, to others what I state makes logical sense, it's all in the passion. And as for a backup, if the goal is a Cup within 3 seasons, a backup suitable for our needs can be found at a much lower cost for both Enroth and the backup then 6.25 million. Thereby creating more space for some real FA or trade signing situation without sacrificing the farm, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oxhurtz Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 We should all be discussing Grags/Weber before we talk Miller/Enroth. Didn't like my "Miller is Overrated" post?! Guess you're a Lee Evans fan as well! Here's a quote right from the sabrespace front page: ‘Miller, who is 0-4-0 in his last four games with a 3.91 goals-against average.’ Those stats aren't even average. Got a question for ya, how many goals did Enroth let in during his 54 minutes in net last night? About my points from my post, so you're against the idea of getting true centers? You'd rather have a team full of good wingers and a above average goalie? Good luck with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 We should all be discussing Grags/Weber before we talk Miller/Enroth. Hell, I'd rather talk Leino/any forward from Rochester before talking Miller/Enroth. This is a stupid, head spinning, rehashed argument that always ends up in an 8 page thread that I can't be bothered to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Didn't like my "Miller is Overrated" post?! Guess you're a Lee Evans fan as well! Here's a quote right from the sabrespace front page: ‘Miller, who is 0-4-0 in his last four games with a 3.91 goals-against average.’ Those stats aren't even average. Got a question for ya, how many goals did Enroth let in during his 54 minutes in net last night? About my points from my post, so you're against the idea of getting true centers? You'd rather have a team full of good wingers and a above average goalie? Good luck with that! :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: Miller had a .930 SV% and 2.14 GAA this season coming into last night's game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Didn't like my "Miller is Overrated" post?! Guess you're a Lee Evans fan as well! Here's a quote right from the sabrespace front page: ‘Miller, who is 0-4-0 in his last four games with a 3.91 goals-against average.’ Those stats aren't even average. Got a question for ya, how many goals did Enroth let in during his 54 minutes in net last night? About my points from my post, so you're against the idea of getting true centers? You'd rather have a team full of good wingers and a above average goalie? Good luck with that! I rather see someone posting in the right ###### thread before they go open new ones with the same ###### discussion going on. If you ###### read at all here you'd know my ###### opinion on centers. /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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