darksabre Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 In my opinion he is not a top goalie. 1/2 of a good year does not make him a top goalie, but whatever, you think what you want and i'll think what I want. When they do score goals(like 6 last week) they still lose, who's fault is it then? Miller has given up 4+ goals about 15 times this season, you think the other guys get frustrated with Miller? I do, but you don't ever hear them throw Ryan under the bus do you. They accept blame and point the finger at themselves, something Ryan needs to obviously learn from them. In his mind it's all about him and pass the buck, real good teammate. The guy is an assssshole. I don't understand the argument that Miller isn't a top goalie. The man won a Vezina Trophy. They don't just give that award to any old goalie. Tim Thomas, Ollie Kolzig, Dom Hasek, Chris Osgood, Martin Brodeur, Kipper, Jose Theodore, Patrick Roy...that's pretty good company to be in. Cam Ward doesn't have one, Henrik Lundqvist doesn't have one, Fleury, Niemi, Khabibulin, Hedberg, Luongo, and Turco don't have one. There are goalies with Stanley Cups that haven't been considered to have played elite enough seasons to be worthy of a Vezina. I don't want to be the guy that makes it personal, but arguing that Miller isn't a top goalie basically makes you an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VansTheMans Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 This argument of MIller being a locker room cancer is complete and utter garbage. Two seasons ago he was the only single shining beacon of hope this Sabres team had. He was the only one that would come out angry in the post game conferences, the only one visually showing his frustration. He's what the Sabres need more of. Someone who holds himself AND the team mates around him accountable for their actions. The rest of the team is the "cancer". Don't kid yourself. This Sabres team rises and falls with Miller. It's been that way since Briere and Drury left in the summer of 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Dryden Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 This argument of MIller being a locker room cancer is complete and utter garbage. Two seasons ago he was the only single shining beacon of hope this Sabres team had. He was the only one that would come out angry in the post game conferences, the only one visually showing his frustration. He's what the Sabres need more of. Someone who holds himself AND the team mates around him accountable for their actions. The rest of the team is the "cancer". Don't kid yourself. This Sabres team rises and falls with Miller. It's been that way since Briere and Drury left in the summer of 2007. Point well taken. Look at the last few games. Look at yesterday. As Sully wrote today, the Sabres choke when the spotlight is turned on them. with one huge exception--Miller. Like all great players, he elevates his game when the stakes go up, like on national TV or the Olympics--where he was the MVP. He may be less than great all the time, especially on a dreary Sunday afternoon against the Isles, and the constant grind of a team that either is not very good or simply underperforms. But if you want to win a cup, you need players who can dial it up a notch as the stakes get higher. That's Miller. And I don't know if there is anyone else like that on the Sabres--and that is the problem(or at least one of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't understand the argument that Miller isn't a top goalie. The man won a Vezina Trophy. They don't just give that award to any old goalie. Tim Thomas, Ollie Kolzig, Dom Hasek, Chris Osgood, Martin Brodeur, Kipper, Jose Theodore, Patrick Roy...that's pretty good company to be in. Cam Ward doesn't have one, Henrik Lundqvist doesn't have one, Fleury, Niemi, Khabibulin, Hedberg, Luongo, and Turco don't have one. There are goalies with Stanley Cups that haven't been considered to have played elite enough seasons to be worthy of a Vezina. I don't want to be the guy that makes it personal, but arguing that Miller isn't a top goalie basically makes you an idiot. Statistically there is a very valid argument that can be made that Miller is not a top goalie. Then again, I suppose it depends on your definition of "top". I'm not syaing that I think he's lousy or anything. As I've said before, he's the least of Buffalo's issues IMO. But saying an idea is idiotuic when there is some valid data to back it up is a bit overboard. Maybe even idiotic. :blush: Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87168 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Statistically there is a very valid argument that can be made that Miller is not a top goalie. Then again, I suppose it depends on your definition of "top". I'm not syaing that I think he's lousy or anything. As I've said before, he's the least of Buffalo's issues IMO. But saying an idea is idiotuic when there is some valid data to back it up is a bit overboard. Maybe even idiotic. :blush: Just sayin'... Are those statistics from this season? Miller's performance this season isn't what it was last year, but that's pretty common amongst goalies. Carey price ring a bell? Price lost his starting position to Halak last season due to poor performance. Habs fans were even more brutal towards him than some Sabres fans are to Miller right now. Now look at Price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty16 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Statistically there is a very valid argument that can be made that Miller is not a top goalie. Then again, I suppose it depends on your definition of "top". I'm not syaing that I think he's lousy or anything. As I've said before, he's the least of Buffalo's issues IMO. But saying an idea is idiotuic when there is some valid data to back it up is a bit overboard. Maybe even idiotic. :blush: Just sayin'... Theres also data from this year to say Ovechkin isnt one of the elite forwards in the game. As for Miller, he had a monster season last year, with Team USA and the Sabres. Out of 30 NHL GMs only 7 did not pick him as the best goalie in Vezina voting. BUt we all know how hes played this year and last, so lets look at two seasons ago. He was #8 in wins, with 2.50 Gaa and was #8 in save % at .918 Is that not elite? He was also something like top 5 in wins the two season before that. Im not sure what metric you use to define elite, but pretty much everyone at the NHL level considers him one of the games best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Are those statistics from this season? Miller's performance this season isn't what it was last year, but that's pretty common amongst goalies. Carey price ring a bell? Price lost his starting position to Halak last season due to poor performance. Habs fans were even more brutal towards him than some Sabres fans are to Miller right now. Now look at Price. Theres also data from this year to say Ovechkin isnt one of the elite forwards in the game. As for Miller, he had a monster season last year, with Team USA and the Sabres. Out of 30 NHL GMs only 7 did not pick him as the best goalie in Vezina voting. BUt we all know how hes played this year and last, so lets look at two seasons ago. He was #8 in wins, with 2.50 Gaa and was #8 in save % at .918 Is that not elite? He was also something like top 5 in wins the two season before that. Im not sure what metric you use to define elite, but pretty much everyone at the NHL level considers him one of the games best. *sigh* We've been down this tired path so many times. This season Miller is performing about at his average. What you see this year is typical for what we've seen every season he's been a starter excepting last season. Is Miller among the elite this year? I guess if you think so then he has been among the elite for awhile. I think he was *THE* goalie last year. It was also an anomoly. Millers stats since '06-07, his first year as a starter; YEAR GAA SV% 06/07 2.73 .911 07/08 2.64 .906 08/09 2.55 .918 09/10 2.22 .929 10/11 2.73 .911 I'm not a Miller hater. I think this team is better off with him than without him. But I don't think that a guy who is middle of the pack stat-wise among all of the full time starters is someone who can be considered elite. He's only had one truly elite level season. Would he be hard to replace? You bet. But that doesn't make him elite unless you think that the top almost 50% of the full time starting goalies are also elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty16 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 *sigh* We've been down this tired path so many times. This season Miller is performing about at his average. What you see this year is typical for what we've seen every season he's been a starter excepting last season. Is Miller among the elite this year? I guess if you think so then he has been among the elite for awhile. I think he was *THE* goalie last year. It was also an anomoly. Millers stats since '06-07, his first year as a starter; YEAR GAA SV% 06/07 2.73 .911 07/08 2.64 .906 08/09 2.55 .918 09/10 2.22 .929 10/11 2.73 .911 I'm not a Miller hater. I think this team is better off with him than without him. But I don't think that a guy who is middle of the pack stat-wise among all of the full time starters is someone who can be considered elite. He's only had one truly elite level season. Would he be hard to replace? You bet. But that doesn't make him elite unless you think that the top almost 50% of the full time starting goalies are also elite. sighhhhh who are the elite goalies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 sighhhhh who are the elite goalies? LOL This line of conversation came up last week too. (not busting on you for it, just mentioning it) IMO there aren't any elite goalies out there right now. There are about 10-12 that are pretty similar but no 2 or 3 that are distinctly better than the others. And again IMO Miller is probably somewhere right around 7-10, and I believe his averages over the last 5 seasons bears that out. Given that there are about 20-22 goalies that can be considered obvious starters, being around 7-10 isn't elite IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patty16 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 LOL This line of conversation came up last week too. (not busting on you for it, just mentioning it) IMO there aren't any elite goalies out there right now. There are about 10-12 that are pretty similar but no 2 or 3 that are distinctly better than the others. And again IMO Miller is probably somewhere right around 7-10, and I believe his averages over the last 5 seasons bears that out. Given that there are about 20-22 goalies that can be considered obvious starters, being around 7-10 isn't elite IMO. my bad, i dont follow every thread. Yea his numbers are what they are. But there are plenty of players in the HOF with numbers that were never top. Not saying Miller is a HOFer but stats dont tell the whole story. The guy is considered one of the best by those in the NHL, numbers aside. Anyway, no more miller talk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 my bad, i dont follow every thread. Yea his numbers are what they are. But there are plenty of players in the HOF with numbers that were never top. Not saying Miller is a HOFer but stats dont tell the whole story. The guy is considered one of the best by those in the NHL, numbers aside. Anyway, no more miller talk! Go ahead. Run and hide from a good discussion. COWARD !!! :nana: I am kidding of course. Might as well try to keep things light. It is funny how we all get so passionate and emotional over an entertainment source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rox11 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't understand the argument that Miller isn't a top goalie. The man won a Vezina Trophy. They don't just give that award to any old goalie. Tim Thomas, Ollie Kolzig, Dom Hasek, Chris Osgood, Martin Brodeur, Kipper, Jose Theodore, Patrick Roy...that's pretty good company to be in. Cam Ward doesn't have one, Henrik Lundqvist doesn't have one, Fleury, Niemi, Khabibulin, Hedberg, Luongo, and Turco don't have one. There are goalies with Stanley Cups that haven't been considered to have played elite enough seasons to be worthy of a Vezina. I don't want to be the guy that makes it personal, but arguing that Miller isn't a top goalie basically makes you an idiot. Excellent post. Whenever Buffalo loses - even to one of the most feared, albeit last year, offensive teams by a score of 2-1, it's Miller's fault. I would imagine at least 25 teams that wished they had Miller in goal. When a team is lacking any scoring punch, to blame the goalie is the talk of an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 *sigh* We've been down this tired path so many times. This season Miller is performing about at his average. What you see this year is typical for what we've seen every season he's been a starter excepting last season. Is Miller among the elite this year? I guess if you think so then he has been among the elite for awhile. I think he was *THE* goalie last year. It was also an anomoly. Millers stats since '06-07, his first year as a starter; YEAR GAA SV% 06/07 2.73 .911 07/08 2.64 .906 08/09 2.55 .918 09/10 2.22 .929 10/11 2.73 .911 I'm not a Miller hater. I think this team is better off with him than without him. But I don't think that a guy who is middle of the pack stat-wise among all of the full time starters is someone who can be considered elite. He's only had one truly elite level season. Would he be hard to replace? You bet. But that doesn't make him elite unless you think that the top almost 50% of the full time starting goalies are also elite. I think that is a good way of looking at it. Gone are the days of a single goaltender ruling the league for years at a time. Dom Hasek, Patrick Roy? Never again. Nowadays the "elite" club has expanded. The definition is less rigid. An elite goalie in modern sense is a goalie that can consistently win games for a bad team. Last years Sabres were awful. Miller was the only reason that team made the playoffs. People who compare the Sabres with Miller to the Flyers with Boucher, Bobrovsky and (formerly) Leighton, are comparing apples and oranges. The success of the Sabres hinges on Miller more than on teams like Philly, where they have talent up front. To assert that the Sabres can win without Miller would imply that they have the tools on the ice to win with any goalie. And we all know that simply is not true. Until the Sabres can consistently field a team that can play in front of journeyman goaltenders, Miller is the goaltender that has shown he is capable of backstopping mediocre teams to some success. I mean, no wonder his stats aren't that good. He comes in as a rookie, plays a tandem part with Biron into the ECFs behind a legitimately good team, then spends his first season riding the wave of an extremely hot Presidents Trophy team that seems to be able to comeback in every game, only to have that team torn apart and him simultaneously be granted the starting job with no backup support. "Hey, you just finished your first full season as a starter? How'd you like to be the only chance Buffalo has of making the playoffs for the next four seasons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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