The TSN Editors Are on the Pipe Again

[Eleven]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=9410&amp...topRelated_main

 

Ok. It's not my team. And I'm still under 40. But NO GUY LAFLEUR? Are they kidding with Rousseau as the second selection at RW? Look, it's a no-contest for Rocket on the first line, even though he played his entire career under the Crown's watch and had no idea that goalies might one day wear masks or that defensemen might actually hit in open ice. He's an icon--a Babe Ruth--who gets the honor no matter who may come after. No problem.

 

But Bobby freaking Rousseau as the second-liner? (And with John Ferguson Sr. as the LW?!) This is nuts. What the hell did LaFleur do to piss off Canada? The guy was amazing. To see him skate was to watch sport meet art. The results were something, too: SIX 50+ goal seasons. FIVE Cups. And he was a first-overall pick, too, the year after Perreault.

 

Next: Goaltending. They want Jacques Plante as No. 1, fine. Again, a nice nostalgia pick; I've seen enough video of the guy to know that he was completely dominant in his time. (And I've also seen enough video to know that he would be as good in goal today as Bob Cousy would be as a guard with the 2009 Celtics--again with the Babe Ruth stuff.) Fine, fine, fine.

 

No. 2? Not some goalie that you might have heard of, like the man Patrick Roy, in TSN's construct. Instead, it's Michel Larooque. They passed over one of the best goalies of all time, who won 2 cups in Montreal (one as a virtual rookie). Larocque was a freaking backup to Ken Dryden (who also deserves mention, if TSN really is picking an all-time Habs team), and nothing more. Look, Roy might not be popular in Quebec, because of his decision to leave the Habs and because of his kids' shenanigans with the Remparts, but I know this: If I'm building an all-time NHL team, I'm considering two of exactly three goaltenders: Roy, Hasek (yeah, we're biased, but he was the best ever, seriously), and Brodeur. No Smith, Plante, Parent, or Jeff Hackett. And no Michel freaking Laroque.

 

The defense pairings were a little better (Larry Robinson was amazing, as were Doug Harvey and Serge Savard), but as good as he is, is Mike Komisarek really one of the best six defensemen they've had in 100 years? Is Craig Ludwig? Craig Ludwig????? Either of those guys is pretty comparable to, say, Craig Rivet, or Patrice Brisebois, in their prime.

 

I can't believe that LaFleur and Roy were left off. It's as if MSG put together an all-time Sabres team with Edwards and, let's say, Dwayne Roloson in goal, but no Hasek, and with Mogilny and, I don't know, Mike Foligno (no disrespect, he's one of my favorites for his spirit alone) at RW instead of Gare.

 

Crappy job and/or politically-driven nonsense, TSN.

[tom webster]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=9410&amp...topRelated_main

 

Ok. It's not my team. And I'm still under 40. But NO GUY LAFLEUR? Are they kidding with Rousseau as the second selection at RW? Look, it's a no-contest for Rocket on the first line, even though he played his entire career under the Crown's watch and had no idea that goalies might one day wear masks or that defensemen might actually hit in open ice. He's an icon--a Babe Ruth--who gets the honor no matter who may come after. No problem.

 

But Bobby freaking Rousseau as the second-liner? (And with John Ferguson Sr. as the LW?!) This is nuts. What the hell did LaFleur do to piss off Canada? The guy was amazing. To see him skate was to watch sport meet art. The results were something, too: SIX 50+ goal seasons. FIVE Cups. And he was a first-overall pick, too, the year after Perreault.

 

Next: Goaltending. They want Jacques Plante as No. 1, fine. Again, a nice nostalgia pick; I've seen enough video of the guy to know that he was completely dominant in his time. (And I've also seen enough video to know that he would be as good in goal today as Bob Cousy would be as a guard with the 2009 Celtics--again with the Babe Ruth stuff.) Fine, fine, fine.

 

No. 2? Not some goalie that you might have heard of, like the man Patrick Roy, in TSN's construct. Instead, it's Michel Larooque. They passed over one of the best goalies of all time, who won 2 cups in Montreal (one as a virtual rookie). Larocque was a freaking backup to Ken Dryden (who also deserves mention, if TSN really is picking an all-time Habs team), and nothing more. Look, Roy might not be popular in Quebec, because of his decision to leave the Habs and because of his kids' shenanigans with the Remparts, but I know this: If I'm building an all-time NHL team, I'm considering two of exactly three goaltenders: Roy, Hasek (yeah, we're biased, but he was the best ever, seriously), and Brodeur. No Smith, Plante, Parent, or Jeff Hackett. And no Michel freaking Laroque.

 

The defense pairings were a little better (Larry Robinson was amazing, as were Doug Harvey and Serge Savard), but as good as he is, is Mike Komisarek really one of the best six defensemen they've had in 100 years? Is Craig Ludwig? Craig Ludwig????? Either of those guys is pretty comparable to, say, Craig Rivet, or Patrice Brisebois, in their prime.

 

I can't believe that LaFleur and Roy were left off. It's as if MSG put together an all-time Sabres team with Edwards and, let's say, Dwayne Roloson in goal, but no Hasek, and with Mogilny and, I don't know, Mike Foligno (no disrespect, he's one of my favorites for his spirit alone) at RW instead of Gare.

 

Crappy job and/or politically-driven nonsense, TSN.

 

 

If you read the article, they weren't picking the 20 best players, they were picking a team that would work well together. Therefore, they specifically picked a true back-up goalie and a guy they thought would fit in better as a second line player. A writer for the Rangers would pick the 20 best players money could buy. A writer for the Canadians is writing about putting together a true team knowing that you can't have Ken Dryden sitting on the bench for 60 games or Guy Lafleur playing 2nd fiddle to the Rocket.

[mphs mike]

Understandable, and this could be a reflection of age, but I still might choose Ken Dryden instead of Plante.

[Two or less]

I don't know how many of you listened to WGR this afternoon but i thought their topic was outstanding. I didn't get a chance to listen to the entire show but a lot of it. The topic was, stealing TSN's idea of creating the "ultimate Sabres team". They had 2 scoring lines, a checking line and a energy line. Fans called in and debated who should be where. It was a really good conversation. Here is the final team from their web site-

 

Scoring line 1-

Gilbert Perreault, Rick Martin, Rene Robert

 

Scoring line 2-

Pat LaFontaine, Alex Mogilny, Thomas Vanek

 

Checking line-

Don Luce, Craig Ramsay, Danny Gare

 

Energy line-

Michael Peca, Brad May, Rick Dudley

 

Pairing 1-

Jim Schoenfeld, Phil Houlsey

 

Pairing 2-

Mike Ramsey, Jerry Korab

 

Pairing 3-

Bill Hajt, Alexei Zhitnik

 

Starting Goalie-

Dominik Hasek

 

Backup-

Martin Biron

 

(Backup goalie was decided on a player who would be happy to be backup. So Tom Bararrsso would not be happy to sit to the 65 games that Hasek plays, thus not picked)

 

Link to article- http://www.wgr550.com/All-Time-Sabre-Team/3715846

 

What you guys think?

[MarkAF43]

Pairing 3-

Bill Hajt, Alexei Zhitnik :unsure:

 

 

 

 

What you guys think?

[Two or less]

I agree with Zhitnik. He couldn't hit the net, but he was a defensive beast. The year before the lockout, if Dallas Drake doesn't cheap shot him in the 6-1 loss to St Louis, i really think we make the playoffs. Zhitnik played first pairing defense for Buffalo on many successful teams, against the leagues elite. And we was our best defensmen in 1999 on our Stanley Cup finalists team.

[Two or less]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but i'm sick and staying in tonight, and watching the 1980 All-Star game from Detroit on the NHL Network. Awesome game. Decent hitting. Lots of speed. Nice scoring chances. Looks like a playoff game. haha.

 

Don Edwards, Danny Gare, Gilbert Perreault and Jim Schoenfeld are representing Buffalo for the Prince of Wales conference! Danny Gare is so much fun to watch. He's every where.

[Foligno's Nose]

I did catch some of this and they can be entertaining and interesting some times over at GR.

I don't agree that there has to be a current player included.

They simply may have yet to assume the position.

 

I also chose to include the top two Sabres goalies.

Even Hasek had to deal with being a back-up for a while.

I don't remember him ever being difficult while he backed-up Fuhr.

 

I also disregarded the checking line/ energy line business.

Just the best four forwards at each position (LW, C, RW). The bottom three kind of fill the bill anyhoo.

(Ray is not a left-winger...but does it matter for him?)

 

 

Greatest Sabres.

 

 

 

Up front.

 

Rick Martin, Gilbert Perreault, Rene Robert

 

Dave Andreychuk, Pat LaFontaine, Alex Mogilny

 

Craig Ramsay, Don Luce, Danny Gare

 

Rob Ray, Michael Peca, Mike Foligno

 

 

 

 

Defense.

 

Bill Hajt, Jim Schoenfeld

 

Jay McKee, Mike Ramsey

 

Alexei Zhitnik, Jerry Korab

 

 

 

 

 

 

In goal.

 

Dominik Hasek

 

Don Edwards

 

Coach - no debate - Lindy.

 

 

With much love to almost all of our goalies past and present (even Dom).

We love these guys.

 

There is no way that you leave our long-standing 2nd all-time leading scorer off this or any list, love him or hate him, Dave Andreychuk.

 

 

Close but no cigar.

 

 

LW - Lindy Ruff

LW - Brad May (the goal alone)

LW - Thomas Vanek (on the climb)

C - Dale Hawerchuk (385 point in 342 games - awesome)

C - Jim Lorentz (plus the greatest play-by-play sidekick ever)

RW - Miroslav Satan (not nuch love for the prick, but he earned it)

RW - Ric Seiling

D - John Van Boxmeer (the shot & RJ's call: JOHN....VAN....BOX.MEER!!!)

D - Richard Smehlik (yeah, that's right)

D - Brian Campbell

D - Doug Bodger

G - Ryan Miller (he's getting there)

G - Tom Barrasso (the rookie year)

G - Bob Sauve (the Montreal back-to-back shutouts)

G - Martin Biron (the mouth)

 

 

Notables left off the lists:

LW - Tony McKegney

C - Paul Gaustad (future captain)

C - Chris Drury (Captain Clutch)

C - Danny Briere (too much good offense during the re-birth years)

C - Dave Hannan (greatest PK tandem with Presley)

RW - Rick Vaive (always loved this guy every week on HNIC before his Sabre days)

RW - Wayne Presley (greatest PK tandem with Hannan)

D - Larry Playfair (plus the great color work with RJ)

D - Toni Lydman (the Lydman Lob - one of my favorites)

 

Intangibles:

RJ, the Knoxes, , Darcy (the fleecings), Sue Brittain, Doug Allen, Milt Ellis, The Earl of Bud, Rip Simonick, Stan Barron, Brad Riter, Tom Golisano, Paul Hamilton, Empire Sports Network (sadly, sorely, MISSED)...

Did I miss anyone else?

 

What an awesome ride

 

I'll quit here...for now.

[MarkAF43]

flame away but for a consistent player, i would have taken Mckee over Zhitnik ..... i think Mckee was a very vital piece of the team while he was here and i would pick him over Zhitnik who seemed to be an inconsistent player

[cdexchange]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=9410&amp...topRelated_main

 

 

Jimmy Roberts, the RW on their "Energy Line", is my wife's best friend's father and she knows him really well.

 

As some of you old-timers know, he also coached the Sabres for a short time. :thumbsup:

[Bmwolf21]

Dave Andreychuk, Pat LaFontaine, Alex Mogilny

That might be the oddest line combo I've ever seen in terms of speed and skill. Dave would need rockets in his skates to have any chance of keeping up with Patty and Alex.

[Eleven]

If you read the article, they weren't picking the 20 best players, they were picking a team that would work well together. Therefore, they specifically picked a true back-up goalie and a guy they thought would fit in better as a second line player. A writer for the Rangers would pick the 20 best players money could buy. A writer for the Canadians is writing about putting together a true team knowing that you can't have Ken Dryden sitting on the bench for 60 games or Guy Lafleur playing 2nd fiddle to the Rocket.

 

I had read that...still think it's nonsense but it's probably a good point with respect to the goaltender. There's no reason why Lafleur shouldn't be on that team, though. Doesn't really matter if a forward is on a "second line."

 

These proposed Sabres teams are interesting. Question: is it sacrilege to consider putting anyone other than Robert with Perreault and Martin?

[Taro T]

I had read that...still think it's nonsense but it's probably a good point with respect to the goaltender. There's no reason why Lafleur shouldn't be on that team, though. Doesn't really matter if a forward is on a "second line."

 

These proposed Sabres teams are interesting. Question: is it sacrilege to consider putting anyone other than Robert with Perreault and Martin?

How could it be sacrilege to break the line up when the line would be broken up quite often in the last season before Robert was traded? (My chosing a team w/out Robert might have influenced my opinion. :o )

 

That said, here's my take on an all-time Sabres team. I didn't look at the others posted ahead of this, so apologies if it looks familiar (or, for that matter, if it doesn't ;) ).

 

Forwards

Martin - Perreault - Andreychuk

Vanek - Lafontaine - Hawerchuck

Ramsay - Drury - Gare

Dudley - Peterson - Presley

 

D

Schoenfeld - Teppo

Ramsey - Housley

McKee - Warrener

 

Goalies

Hasek - Sauve

 

Spares

Ray - Luce - Hajt

 

GM

Imlach

 

Coach

Lindy

 

Consultant

Scotty

 

 

I know Ducks was a center, but he played wing in the '87 CC, and I've got to find a spot for him. The rest are at their natural positions (except for Andreychuk, but considering how he skated, I don't think which wing he was on really would matter ;) ). I'm not totally enamored w/ having Wimpley on the squad, but I wanted to have 1 offensive defenseman and he was better at that than Soupy. Teppo gets in for the steadying veteran presence and edges out Horton for that role because we need someone to quarterback the #2 powerplay. The D aren't really in any special order. And there are several others that were considered that were solid at both ends, but I think this is the 6 that I'd roll with.

 

Peterson is on the roster for his faceoffs. We didn't have a centerman that could consistantly win faceoffs for nearly 2 decades after he was traded away. Dudley gets the edge over Spencer for the Cup run season. It was a tough call going w/ Drury over Luce.

 

Sauve gets the nod as the backup over Biron because he was a better goalie IMHO. I know D'ohopp and Bulldog didn't consider him a backup because he shared the Vezina w/ Edwards in '80, but Edwards got more games in that period and he played the tougher games. Sauve was the #2 and did a very good job at it. I also seriously considered Crozier for the job.

 

I kept Ray as the spare because he's used to that role (he oftentimes didn't dress in the playoffs) and especially when he could take his sweater off he was a good fighter. I nearly gave that job, or Dudley's, to May. Luce and Hajt don't truly fit the "spares" role, but I couldn't bring myself to put Rory and Chris Taylor or Gates Orlando on the squad.

 

I'd probably add Vaive and Sheppard (or Audette) if I can't have Ducks and Andreyslug. I don't want Mogilny on this roster unless he's playing for his next contract, and even then, it's a tough sell. I gave serious consideration to putting May on the 4th line or in Ray's spot, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. Briere doesn't make it because he can't beat out #11, #16, or Ducks; and I can't put him on the 3rd or 4th lines, and I don't like him at wing. Same rationale for Stinky Sneaky Pete.

 

If the Sabres would have had them earlier in their careers, then Fuhr, Gillies, Lambert, Patterson, Schultz, Napier, and Sweeney (and probably a couple of others) definitely get consideration. And, conversely, had they been Sabres later in their careers Carney, Boucher, and Ballard would get consideration.

 

It's a very tough call going w/ Lindy over Scotty as coach, but Scotty's less than stellar work as a GM (taking a team that appeared to be 3 years from having a legit shot at the Finals to one that missed the playoffs twice and started a 10 year playoff advancement drought) gives the edge to Lindy. If Scotty were purely focused on coaching, I'd give him the edge.

[Foligno's Nose]

E for effort from Taro.

Great post.

 

Excellent debate.

 

In almost Freudian nature, I left Wow-wee off my list completely (I know Rob Ray won't argue).

 

It was a mistake, and he deserves his slot replacing...Korab.

Sorry Jerry.

So my D looks like:

 

Bill Hajt, Jim Schoenfeld

 

Alexei Zhitnik, Mike Ramsey

 

Jay McKee, Phil Housley

 

Korab moves to the 'no cigar' list along with other tough cuts such as Hawerchuk and Lorentz et al

 

 

 

McKee was the next to go but I could not because of his collision with Super Mario in game 2 of the 2001 semifinals.

Find it and watch it.

The irrestistable force meeting the immovable object. ("You can say that again, Monsoon!" - The Body)

One of my favorite moments in Sabres/ hockey history. (I smell another thread...)

 

Jay sold his soul (and body) on this and many other occasions for our team.

By the time he got his ultimate financial reward from St.Louis, he was just about done.

God bless him.

[tom webster]

How could it be sacrilege to break the line up when the line would be broken up quite often in the last season before Robert was traded? (My chosing a team w/out Robert might have influenced my opinion. :o )

 

That said, here's my take on an all-time Sabres team. I didn't look at the others posted ahead of this, so apologies if it looks familiar (or, for that matter, if it doesn't ;) ).

 

Forwards

Martin - Perreault - Andreychuk

Vanek - Lafontaine - Hawerchuck

Ramsay - Drury - Gare

Dudley - Peterson - Presley

 

D

Schoenfeld - Teppo

Ramsey - Housley

McKee - Warrener

 

Goalies

Hasek - Sauve

 

Spares

Ray - Luce - Hajt

 

GM

Imlach

 

Coach

Lindy

 

Consultant

Scotty

I know Ducks was a center, but he played wing in the '87 CC, and I've got to find a spot for him. The rest are at their natural positions (except for Andreychuk, but considering how he skated, I don't think which wing he was on really would matter ;) ). I'm not totally enamored w/ having Wimpley on the squad, but I wanted to have 1 offensive defenseman and he was better at that than Soupy. Teppo gets in for the steadying veteran presence and edges out Horton for that role because we need someone to quarterback the #2 powerplay. The D aren't really in any special order. And there are several others that were considered that were solid at both ends, but I think this is the 6 that I'd roll with.

 

Peterson is on the roster for his faceoffs. We didn't have a centerman that could consistantly win faceoffs for nearly 2 decades after he was traded away. Dudley gets the edge over Spencer for the Cup run season. It was a tough call going w/ Drury over Luce.

 

Sauve gets the nod as the backup over Biron because he was a better goalie IMHO. I know D'ohopp and Bulldog didn't consider him a backup because he shared the Vezina w/ Edwards in '80, but Edwards got more games in that period and he played the tougher games. Sauve was the #2 and did a very good job at it. I also seriously considered Crozier for the job.

 

I kept Ray as the spare because he's used to that role (he oftentimes didn't dress in the playoffs) and especially when he could take his sweater off he was a good fighter. I nearly gave that job, or Dudley's, to May. Luce and Hajt don't truly fit the "spares" role, but I couldn't bring myself to put Rory and Chris Taylor or Gates Orlando on the squad.

 

I'd probably add Vaive and Sheppard (or Audette) if I can't have Ducks and Andreyslug. I don't want Mogilny on this roster unless he's playing for his next contract, and even then, it's a tough sell. I gave serious consideration to putting May on the 4th line or in Ray's spot, but just couldn't bring myself to do it. Briere doesn't make it because he can't beat out #11, #16, or Ducks; and I can't put him on the 3rd or 4th lines, and I don't like him at wing. Same rationale for Stinky Sneaky Pete.

 

If the Sabres would have had them earlier in their careers, then Fuhr, Gillies, Lambert, Patterson, Schultz, Napier, and Sweeney (and probably a couple of others) definitely get consideration. And, conversely, had they been Sabres later in their careers Carney, Boucher, and Ballard would get consideration.

 

It's a very tough call going w/ Lindy over Scotty as coach, but Scotty's less than stellar work as a GM (taking a team that appeared to be 3 years from having a legit shot at the Finals to one that missed the playoffs twice and started a 10 year playoff advancement drought) gives the edge to Lindy. If Scotty were purely focused on coaching, I'd give him the edge.

 

 

Not much to argue about here except that i defintitely go with Hortin over Teppo for a few reasons.

 

1) Horton was better offensively then he got credit for but definitely didn't play that role with Buffalo.

2) With those top 8 forwards, you wouldn't need Teppo at the point. I assume the two power play units would be;

a) Martin, Gil, Andreychuk, Housley and Ramsey at the points

b) Patty, Vanek, Drury with Hawerchuk and Horton at the points

[Taro T]

Not much to argue about here except that i defintitely go with Hortin over Teppo for a few reasons.

 

1) Horton was better offensively then he got credit for but definitely didn't play that role with Buffalo.

2) With those top 8 forwards, you wouldn't need Teppo at the point. I assume the two power play units would be;

a) Martin, Gil, Andreychuk, Housley and Ramsey at the points

b) Patty, Vanek, Drury with Hawerchuk and Horton at the points

Horton was good offensively when he was younger. By the time he got to the Pens he didn't bring much to the offensive end, he definitely didn't have much left by the time he was a Sabre. Teppo brought/brings more to the offensive end than Horton does and doesn't hurt you in the defensive zone (unlike Wimpley). I prefer his complementing the other 4 (5 counting the 7th D man) to what Horton brings.

 

That said, I don't think I'd storm out of the building if I found out Horton was dressing the night the Sabres ATT was playing the Phlyers ATT. It was a close call and Tim was on my 1st draft of the lineup. If the choice was between the 2 of them in their prime, I'd probably take Horton; but Horton didn't get to the Sabres until he was 42. Teppo arrived as a wee lad of only 37.

 

I also agree w/ you that Teppo wouldn't be the QB of the PP (that was a poor choice of words as the role would fall to Ducks or Wimpley, respectively), but I want at least 1 D-man on each unit and would prefer to have Teppo out on the unit w/ Ducks at the point than Horton.

 

I'd also probably tinker during the season w/ having Andreychuk down low on the Drury unit; w/ Gare on the Perreault unit and Patty at the point instead of Ramsey.

 

And an aside to Foligno's nose: Zhitnik was one of those guys that nearly made my team.