Archie Lee

It isn’t about the age, experience, talent or maturity of any specific player. The question is: have they collectively reached a critical mass of these attributes that is needed for an NHL roster to be successful?

What does it mean to be playoffs or bust? Is it not possible to prioritize making the playoffs this year while still planning for the long-term? I don’t see them as exclusive. The best teams in the NHL are often “all-in” year after year. Again: year after year. How many years in a row have Vegas, Colorado, Edmonton, Dallas, Boston, Tampa, Florida, Toronto and the Rangers been in the mix? Other than Dahlin, I don’t see that there is a single player that we have whose loss should be insurmountable in achieving the goal of being successful over the longterm (frankly, I’m not sure Dahlin is in that category either). That said, I don’t typically see things as black or white. There are scenarios where we could miss this year and I would argue that bringing back Adams makes sense. If a lot of the things that need to go right do go right, and we get to 91+ and miss by a point or two, I don’t think I will be arguing for Pegula to take another shot at hiring a new GM just yet.

If the Sabres make the playoffs and get on a run, they will become almost everyone’s 2nd favourite team for a year.

I'm not sure why Wheeler has even included Benson on his list as he is clearly "established as a full-time NHLer". That error aside, each year Wheeler seems to place weight on the strengths of the most recent class over that of prior draft classes. Last year Benson was 12th on the list and was one of twelve picks from 2023 in the top 20. This year he has fallen to 20th on the list and there are ten picks from the 2024 draft class in the top 20. Perreault is the only 2023 pick who vaulted ahead of Benson, which is odd to be sure. Wheeler's actual write up on Benson is glowing with praise.

I think it is probably the case, but it is also the case that they thought he was a player they could replace in free agency. They signed Brandon Duhaime (on my list as a possible 4th liner before free agency) and Taylor Raddysh to replace Malenstyn and Aube-Kubel.

I don't know how Ruff managed his lines and match-ups in Jersey the last few years. That, though, is likely a better indicator of what we will see than what he did here nearly two decades ago.

I agree. There are complicated scenarios, but there is the simple answer as well. The goaltending doesn't regress and the PP improves to middle of the pack and we turn 8 one goal regulation losses into overtime games and win half of them and we finish with 96 points.

So far in this thread, 16 fans have posted their actual prediction for Benson's point total in 24-25. - Zero have predicted he will do worse production-wise - One predicts the same point total, but an increase in goals - 14 predict an increase in his production, the average of which comes in at 45 points. That's pretty much where you are. - My prediction would be similar to yours, 15-20 goals, 25-30 assists, 45-50 points. - Nobody is down on Benson or predicting a significant regression from last year.

It’s one person’s opinion. And he starts out by acknowledging that there are other people in the field who rate Buffalo’s prospect pool much higher than he does. And he states Buffalo has a top 10 prospect pool in his view, though barely so (9th or 10th I assume). The “most over-rated” line just seems like the hook to me. The obvious knock against our pool is what he identifies, the lack of a clearly elite, difference-making, type of player. The depth is very good and it shifts to excellent when you consider those that have graduated recently to the NHL. But there is no obvious star coming. I’m not worried (yet) about the lack of a clear star. For one, I think Dahlin fits that bill. Thompson might rebound along with Tuch and be star-adjacent. I think Cozens, Power, Quinn, Peterka, Byram and Benson have legit shots, if maybe long-shots, to be stars. I think we have 4-5 more such players coming. That’s 10-11 long-shots. I don’t think it is unrealistic that we have 2-4 Jason Robertson, Roope Hintz, Robert Thomas, Josh Morrissey level stars (or higher), who haven’t hit yet. Still lots of time to be patient with individual players (less so with the team as a whole).

True enough. Finding the right player who doesn't have trade protection and who will extend with the Sabres is a legitimate challenge (though not insurmountable). This was meant as a post-free-agency, off-season, hypothetical discussion about what you would be prepared to give up to get a top-6 upgrade. I fully understand why some would say Benson should not be moved in such a trade. If a fan believes that Benson was a top-5 pick who slid to 13 solely due to the myopic views of NHL GMs (a myopic view that, thankfully, our GM does not share), and that there are maybe 10 players in all the NHL whose talents exceed Benson's potential, then of course that fan isn't making the short-sighted decision to trade him for a 28-29 year-old top-6 winger.

I think Benson can be that also. Per your earlier post in this thread though, you predict he will be there in 3 years. But, with the goal of winning, you won’t trade him for a player who is there now?

Wasn’t he in the top 6 for portions of last year? I would say there is a reasonable chance he will be in the top 6 this year and a not unrealistic chance he will be on line one. Benson/Thompson/Tuch is intriguing to me, as Benson is a pass first playmaker who I think could mesh well with the shoot first Thompson. I could absolutely see a scenario where Benson lines up there and thrives from day one. His below average skating might not make it the best match of skills though. What is interesting to me is that you are, in all honesty, pretty much at the forefront of the “Adams has already used up his last chance and it is win or else” brigade. Your position has warrant. Yet, you draw the line at trading a 19 year old, who you think is 3 years away from the top 6, in exchange for an established current top line player. I understand to a degree. I really like Benson too. His hockey IQ, anticipation and tenacity are maybe elite. I think he is going to be good for a long time. His skating and size might limit his ceiling. I thought there were times last year where his legs and/or size were not up to capitalizing on the loose puck opportunity his brain created and tenacity created. I acknowledge he was 18 though and that there is room for growth and/or adaptation. We are clearly very hungry for a kid who plays with some brains and spunk.

I had switched to the general “you” at that point. My apologies. That said, while I think a lack of depth is a good reason to want to acquire an additional top 6 level winger and to prefer trading something other than Benson in the process, I don’t think a lack of depth is a good reason to not trade for an upgrade, particularly when trading for the upgrade doesn’t worsen your depth. You won’t agree with the analogy I suspect, but it would be like going back to the Turgeon/Hawerchuk days and not trading Turgeon for Lafontaine because it still leaves us one injury away from only having one top 6 centre.

I’m not at all down on Quinn or Benson. If we acquire a legit unquestionably top 6 forward for other assets, then one of Quinn or Benson (likely Benson) is on line 3. Based on that, there is logic to me to consider moving Benson in such a deal if he is the required cost. I’m not giving him away, but if you can get an extended Konecny or Boeser for him, then I think it would be bizarre to not consider it. On the flip side, if the reason you won’t trade Benson or Quinn is because you view them as already being elite or near to elite players, then I would assume that you don’t think we have a top 6 need/issue (and, I would say you should be thrilled with the job Adams has done to position the team with such incredible young talents who are ready to help us win now). There is an inconsistency to me in the position that Adams needs to do more, while also considering players like Benson and Quinn as untouchable in the pursuit of improvement.

I’m all for optimism. Love Quinn and Benson and am super excited to see what they can do. I realize we aren’t trading either of them and I don’t want them traded except for a serious upgrade. I also stand by my opinion that we have an internal cap that will be maxed out once we get our RFA’s signed, so, a top 6 upgrade isn’t likely an option anyway. Still, things moved very quickly from July 1 being a disaster to the top 6 being full for the next 6 years (assuming we will extend Tuch next summer).

It's not likely that they all will get injured. How many NHL teams have legitimate top 6 players (25-30 goal, 60+ point potential) playing on their 3rd line? If Quinn and Benson are as good as you believe, then we can easily sustain an injury or two in the top-6. Zucker and McLeod, maybe Kulich, can fill-in a top-six role. I'm not trying to be a wanker. I really like Quinn and Benson. I think there is a scenario where we don't make any additional moves and things come together that make us a playoff team this year. I have actual optimism about that. I don't understand the fiery anger and frustration with Adams that is overlapped with the unwavering belief that he has drafted players in Quinn and Benson who are so incredibly good that they are basically untouchable in trade.

And to the 2nd question? If Quinn is a 1st line winger and Benson is so good there are no more than 5-10 players in the NHL who you would trade him for, then I assume you think we are a playoff team? Why all the angst about Adams? It seems he is a genius.

And Zach Benson gets us closer to winning the Stanley Cup in the next 5 years than Boeser, Konecny or Ehlers in that same time-period? I respect your opinion and I'm not trying or wanting to get rid of Benson. There would be huge risk in any such trade. It seems to me that there is an overlap of fans who on the one hand are immensely disappointed in our off-season while on the other-hand being committed to Benson as untouchable. If Benson and Quinn are that good already, then I assume you see us as a playoff team? If not, then where are we short?

Beyond absurd. Of course he was. The point is to make the playoffs.

Well, I would put Dahlin, Cozens, UPL and Levi (if he is on the team) in there as well. I know you think Dahlin and Cozens are long-since graduated from this group based on experience, but I think part of this is are they ready to be the players who lead a group that is this young. Dahlin and Cozens are without question ready to play important roles on contending NHL teams, but I'm not convinced they are ready to have the pressure of being the go-to, most important players and leaders on a team that is made up of so many players less talented, less experienced and less mature than they are. The Sabres won't be asking Dahlin and Cozens to do the same as Dallas asks of Heiskanen and Hintz or as Colorado asks of Makar and Mittelstadt. We will be asking a lot more. I'm not trying to be a smart Alec with this, but I take it then that you see us as a playoff team?

Not to narrow a top 6 acquisition to the 3 players I referenced. I use them as examples only because they are all a year from UFA and their teams might not have cap space (Vancouver) or might be looking to get younger (Philadelphia) or cheaper (Winnipeg). Boeser had 40 goals and 73 points last year. Konecny 33/68. Ehlers 25/61. Benson 11/30. Benson would need to take an enormous leap in production for such a trade, in the short-term, to be deemed treading water.

I think it is one thing to have a couple of young players in the line-up who have reached the 200 game mark (give or take), and to look at those kids and say: no more excuses. I think it is quite another thing to have 6-8 such kids in your line-up.

You're right. If we traded something else for a top-6 winger, Quinn or Benson would just be bumped to line 3. But what if the barrier to a top-6 upgrade is that the team we are dealing with wants Benson or Quinn. So the cost of Ehlers, Konecny or Boeser is Benson. Should we do that? Would you do that? My answer is a qualified yes. I would trade Benson for any of those players, if we were able to get them extended first.

Doesn't some of that need to come from Thompson, Tuch and Cozens. They combined for 114 in 22-23 and then dropped to 69 last year. If they don't at least split the difference and combine for 90 this year, I don't see a path to the playoffs.

At present, I would say that four of the top-6 forward positions are filled by Thompson, Tuch, Cozens and Peterka. The remaining two wings will likely be filled by two of Quinn, Benson and Zucker. For the most part, fans seem to see Quinn as nearly a lock for one of the remaining spots, leaving Zucker or Benson for the last spot depending on preference for talent or experience. Long-shots would be Greenway, if Ruff opts to balance lines with a defensive presence, and Kulich, if he has a great camp. Regardless of the above, if we were to acquire a legit top-6 forward, it pushes at least one of Quinn or Benson to line 3 (along with Zucker). The question then is, if we really could use a top-6 upgrade, and that upgrade would mean that either Quinn or Benson (along with Zucker) would move to line 3, and considering the improved bottom 6 depth, and considering that we have a boatload of forward prospects (one or two of whom might be ready for at least a middle-six role as soon as this season), then should we trade Quinn or Benson for the top-6 upgrade?