erickompositör72

I actually don't agree with this. There are many proven NHL'ers on our team, and have all shown flashes that they still have "it" I think it's all Housley learning on the job. I think he'll get it, though, and we'll be good. But he's no prodigy-coach; it will take everyone time to figure it out, "buy-in," etc. Plus, our defense was not healthy for the first 20+ games. This put the whole "learning the system," chemistry with pairings, etc., even more behind schedule for the d-parings than the forwards.

SabresBillsFan- I appreciate your input, so I did everyone the courtesy of consolidating everything you've said so in this thread into a nice, concise chunk:

Every franchise has an analytics team. They go over every second w/ video, multiple angles, etc. Sometimes they are part of the video scouting dept.

What should we look for in return? Do we need another center to replace him, or just wait for Mittelstud to come up?

What do you think I think they mean? :P To sum up what I think they mean, I'll defer to the one who provided them originally:

Those charts don't lie

I don't advocate trying to cheap-out on a goaltender. I say, find a good one, and pay him. It will be worth it. Then, implement Housley's real d-zone system (charts above indicate he may have watered it down because Lehner can't handle it.)

I'm telling you, if Lehner plays the rest of this season with the Sabres, with his (IMO) padded stats due to our defensive system, he's going to be an arbitration nightmare. His stats will be used to command a waayyy higher contract than his ability. I'm praying we will let that become another team's nightmare, or just not even offer him a contract As illustrated by Randall's post, it appears so.

Hasek, while implementing a completely unorthodox style, was actually out-of-this-world good at the basic parameters I outlined in a previous post. His recovery time was off the charts, his ability to freeze the puck was elite, and his ability to locate the puck in a scramble was outstanding. He read plays as well as any goaltender, and this accounted for him being able to make those ridiculous saves. Just because he looked so unorthodox doesn't change the fact that those fundamentals were so sound. There's a lot more "science" in analyzing goaltenders than some realize, and by "science," I do not mean simple stats! (sv%, gga, ect. The analytics Randall just posted, however, are quite illustrative) The problem is, hugging the post isn't the problem, but rather, a symptom of the problem. The problem is his questionable balance when he goes down and his ability to recover. He wasn't hugging the post in the 2nd NYR goal because he had already committed, and couldn't adjust/recover.

First of all, I meant he is not an NHL starter. If I said NHL goalie, I mis-stated, and that's my bad. He's an NHL backup-calibre. Secondly, even if you ignore me, you'll still get to read my posts, as people quote me often ;)

Which is why having a goaltender who does those bullets I listed at an above average level would be so helpful

FYI- scouts don't put nearly as much weight on stats for goaltenders as Lehner supporters do. They look at things like: Rebound control lateral movement recovery time ability to read a play ability to locate the puck These are a few of the most important elements, and these are the traits that separate the average from the good from the elite. On most of these (except perhaps lateral movement), Lehner is below average. His good lateral movement allows him to make some spectacular saves, though, which wins him the favor of those who don't see his other glaring weaknesses.

I'd rather lose some by a lot, but win more, than "be in the game" and lose on a horrible goal.

I agree with you that replacing Lehner will be very tricky vis a vis asset & cap management, etc., but I think nfreeman is more accurate in his assessments of downgrades vs lateral moves. That said, I'd bet replacing Lehner and handling the Kane situation are GMBot's 2 biggest priorities.

In one highlight I saw of him, his skating/puck-handling actually reminded me of Eichel

I basically gave everything but a complete scouting report on all three goals that he let in... but since "the broadcast" said something different, they're not credible? I agree. I'm guessing there are 20-25 goaltenders in the league better than Lehner. No idea who's actually on the market. Then there's getting one who's marginally better vs getting one who's substantially better. Honestly, I'd take a marginally better goaltender who makes the saves he's supposed to make, and doesn't make as many "spectacular" saves. The goals Lehner allows are pretty consistent with everyone's "because Buffalo" scenarios: Big save, then a goal Johnson would have stopped.

eh, nothing that could be considered more than "anecdotal" for our purposes, combined with a genuine passion for the art of goaltending. I haven't been posting here very long, so I accept I don't really have any credibility at this point. That post was kind of a passive-aggressive way of me lamenting that fact. Take what I say as you will ;)

Regarding Josefson on getting icetime in OT: Phil was rewarding him for having 2 great games. This is what a coach is supposed to do. Josefson has good speed, can play a shifty game, and make can some plays. He's not strong on the puck, but if the choice for 3C is between him and ERod, I'll take Josefson all day. Put Larrson at 4C.

Trade him for whatever we can get. Hopefully it's the return a solid back-up would get. NHL scouts won't let a GM (not named Murray) give up more. We can't hold on to him, even if he would make a solid back-up. Let him be another team's arbitration nightmare.

I will admit that it'd be unfair to put the overtime goal on Lehner, in isolation. I'd expect an NHL goaltender to control that rebound maybe a third (33.3%) of the time. Problem is, Lehner will control that rebound nearly 0% of the time. Honestly, I don't think a lot of the people defending Lehner know much about goaltending. But that's just IMHO :flirt:

You pick the "win/loss" stat for the full-tank Sabres? see above EDIT: when girgs was our top-line center

Once again, this is a straw-man argument. Lehner doing some things better than a career NHL back-up is not something a starter should brag about. EDIT: Just to indulge the Chad Johnson comparisons, I don't think he'd have allowed the first 2 goals. He may not have made some other saves, but the point is- Lehner allows goals that should not be allowed by a starting NHL goaltender. EDIT 2: Furthermore, when people say, "come on, he made 39 saves! What do you want?" I want 40 saves and a win. Remember even when we had Neuvirth? He'd have made the 40th save.

I'm going to ignore this, to save you the embarrassment of having just compared a goaltender to Chad Johnson to defend them.

It's about the goals he allows, everyone. NHL goaltenders won't allow goals that he does. Lundqvist gobbles up every rebound. If Lehner could do that, overtime goal wouldn't have happened. Lundqvist wouldn't have allowed the first goal, either. No NHL goaltender would have allowed the 2nd goal. The only way we'll receive anything in return for Lehner is if a team is desperate for a goalie and has goaltending scouts