Thorny

This is the kind of stuff that lets me KNOW there’s no goodwill in me discussing this anymore I appreciate it

That was just the one I posted 😂 There is a ton of data out there, plenty of analysts takes up, even on NHL.com, right now, paid analysts, that are placing Jack on these lists. Go look at his advanced metrics in 19-20. Hell, even peep the GDTs. Please, I cannot stress this enough: don’t take my word for it. But, with all due respect - and this isn’t directed specifically at you - I’m not that interested in doing the work for people, anymore. It’s not that interesting to me anymore- this particular conversion sort of rose up organically so that’s good fun, but.. I want to tap out of it, now, if that’s fair. I’ve tried before to link bits in the GDTs* from that year, for one example, clips of Eichel being a great leader towards Dahlin..people aren’t really interested in it. It doesn’t gain traction. Don’t blame ‘em. *part of why the even further improvement to his D game this year doesn’t surprise me is because I remember, and am not afraid to acknowledge, that *WE* were all saying the same things, in 19-20. But there’s no point in me waging this war if even the clearest bits of info are met with skepticism. Eichel is having a great season - he’s having a great season defensively: the numbers and metrics are in fact out there, and do in fact speak for themselves: anyone that doesn’t want to hear them, doesn’t believe them, or has a healthy degree of skepticism in them, ain’t going to be convinced by me, anyways.

You did in fact “like“ the post I made acknowledging exactly this:

I mean... It’s what people in the know are saying. Those that know way more than me. I believe his coaches are also waxing poetic about his defensive aptitude this season. People forget 19-20 around these parts, I will say that. I suppose the lasting perception of it was so thoroughly eclipsed by what came after for Jack it makes total sense. But that was the year we were all collectively marveling in the GDTs about how much better Jack’s two way game had become, and how much more leader-like he sounded in interviews. At the time, this wasn’t surprising to people, because we used to understand that players Jack’s age DO tend to improve their all around game at such the young age he was still at. People don’t really want to talk about that now, and I get it. But he finished 8th in mvp voting that year: his D *was* way better. And it’s appeared to take another gigantic step. Unless you think everyone is just lying because they hate buffalo, and really only buffalo fans *know*. We Sabres fans tend to view Jack, now, as the sum totality of all he was as a Sabre: and that’s fine. But it’s no good to deny the fact of the perspective under which we viewed him before: a player that was still improving and developing.

Overall, yes, and I agree: but the idea here for why having a few really good scorers rather than hypothetically just a couple more points would be the preferred scenario is that we aren’t a finished product yet. We can add to the parts that are working. Finished product? Ya, give me the team with more points in the standings, full stop

Not this people.

I think the idea is that, while there are certainly obstacles in signing any *one* player, your hope that, over a time period of several years, a GM would be able to snag even one from the entire pool, be it trade or FA, to substantially address the position. Just for clarification, you aren’t making the argument that there’s nothing better we could have reasonably done, this whole time, to address the position, right?

Better offensive numbers, slightly: but even here, Tage’s current per-game pace doesn’t scratch the surface of the marks Jack put up in per-game numbers at this point in a couple of his Sabres seasons. During the year he finished top 10 in mvp voting, Jack was pacing for 130 I believe at one point. Will have to see how Tage ends up Like I say, playing the pace game is dangerous. But, from a straight up, purely offensive production standpoint this season, it’s pretty close, with Tage so far actually being ahead, to your point - - - Basically, while you and GA are acknowledging the 2-way game thing, it’s not just something that is mentioned then quickly bypassed, because we want to, in favour of the guy who’s a Sabre just b/c he’s a year younger: it’s a substantial consideration and it’s why, until further notice, it’s Eichel being listed by all the analysts and “early voting” as in the top 10 for both Hart AND *Selke* right now, and not yet Tage. It’s not *me* ranking JE above him on these lists, either, obviously. Tage can round that out, not saying he can’t, but, assuming they stay pretty equal offensively, until he does that Eichel is the better overall player. I suppose Tage could blow by him offensively to make up the gap, too, but I dunno how likely that is

Yes I definitely would. 1 year of age gap doesn’t make a difference, and the contract doesn’t offset how much better Jack is two-way right now. I also don’t think Tage matches Jack’s point total this year, when all is said and done. Of course, this is all disregarding team fit and just looking at things in a vacuum. I don’t really agree with the idea of placing very much weight on contract when determining value, re: straight up player comparisons. There’s a reason contracts don’t factor into the Hart trophy voting: ie most VALUABLE player. It’s never weighted vs contract - salary is a team issue and players getting paid more don’t need to do more to earn an MVP than a player earning less: that wouldn’t make sense. Scheifele at 6 mil would have been in the mvp consideration for years if that was the case Still, Tage is still seemingly improving (though, apparently Jack is, too) so that book isn’t closed. This can be revisited. The fact it can even be discussed is pretty cool on it’s own.

The guy who berated the team and every member of this board on his way out lol

Think about it. Think again. What do you think? Just think!

@bob_sauve28 sounds like you are basically saying we have 7 guys who can succeed in that top 6, not that inserting VO necessarily avoids somewhat of a potential drop-off, but the key point being that whichever of the 7, in this case VO, isn’t in the top 6 will be left to twist in the wind shackled to someone like Mittelstadt and his black hole third line Correct me if I’m wrong

Agree. Mid 80s is a fine result

I think most teams 4th lines, really, are populated by dudes that can’t crack higher ground: so I suppose I disagree they can’t be construed as solid role players. Asplund/Jost/Girgensons/Okposo I’d argue do fit that criteria Ya, I like VO and do think he’d look better there

I always see a little bit of Keanu in Doan, ymmv - - - Imo, I was on record saying the bare minimum result that could be even *argued* to be a successful result is 82 points (and that was being nice) and the surpassing of the 15-16 total of 7 years ago, a total that Murray never surpassed, that, as a high-water mark, got him fired. It’s a .500 club. It’s not hard to do and this is the GM’s 3rd season, and it’s the second in the “new plan”, where we had 76 last year. I can’t see how failing to even improve by ~3 wins, when we are supposed to be seeing progress, could be deemed an acceptable result, especially considering it would be quite disingenuous to discount the fact people were, almost to a man, touting the finish and supposedly valuable sample size to end last season where they played WELL beyond an 82 point pace, as something that could/should carry over, at least somewhat. A 76 point finish, followed by, say, a 79 point finish, is more less treading water re:results and I think it’s ok to expect more progress than that. No, this isn’t the same as saying it would be indicative of a failed build and a need for KA to get canned

Now, the legend Shane Doan

I’ll take a team that banks as many points as the amount of times you change your avatar Disclaimer *sarcasm*

Thanks for the embed. Though, I’ll argue w/ whoever wrote that tweet that Quinn actually created his own space through the vision he has to see the play at speed, and dish that pass as quick as he did. It looks like barely anything but even just a second or two at this level, when splitting hair between players who are ALL talented, can make all the difference.

Can’t find a YouTube link to embed but this is that goal https://www.nhl.com/video/quinn-scores-goal/t-335522622/c-13976599

I’ve been one of VO’s biggest boosters on this board but even I wouldn’t mess with that line / swap in VO. Quinn is doing a lot to create space for his linemates. I pointed it out in the GDT yesterday but it didn’t get any traction, but if anyone goes and watches the highlight of Quinn’s goal yesterday: the most impressive thing could be the pass he makes, to JJ, leading him, before JJ is even looking. That’s... eye opening talent and space creation

But they haven’t gone cold, yet. Tage, obviously, hasn’t either. I guess I just question you logic that you could alter one of those variables without the other being significantly affected. Don’t see why their totals will drop off SEVERELY if Tage’s don’t, and if they do drop off, I think we’ll see that statistically reflected in Tage’s output. Unless they get moved off the line, ya. Just haven’t seen that much

But Quinn isn’t even just there to develop. Quinn is helping us do the things required to win, NOW. The kid line isn’t good for a kid line: they are just plain good.

What do you think TT gets to? Considering Tuch and Skinner are glued to his hip, it would be difficult for neither to reach 60 if Thompson is banking 80+. I don’t even think Tuch has been very good and he’s point a game right now.

It was truly just, “4 guys pacing for 80?! I’ll take a TEAM that can pace for 80, thank you very much. Amirite folks? Folks?” Nothing more.