Patty16
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Posts posted by Patty16
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Tim doesn't do nuance like that. That's why so many like him. Hell, even I like him. He spoke his mind. I don't think anyone likes the message. Right now, they're taking it out on the messenger. Funny that I would have to be the one to bring the quote to the board's attention. Was everyone else covering their ears and screaming "lalalalalalalalala"?
How's it out of context? The quote is in context.
It can just as easily mean he hopes they are challenging for a playoff spot but can still win the lottery. You read that as he hopes they tank again and blah blah.
Virtually everything you post puts the team and ownership in a negative light.
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This board is a ###### shitshow. Don't blame me for that. Blame Terry — and Taro.
No, it has a great deal to do with you. The type who posts crap taken way out of context and then goes " who meeeeee?"
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If you play/show those quotes to 100 high school educated people, 90+ will come away with what the consensus here is: He doesn't want to be a non-playoff team next year, he just recognizes that, in the process of getting better, the team probably will fall a bit short. It's a process, dude. Becoming a contender takes some time -- it's not a "just add McEichel" recipe.
Your understanding of what he's saying is (*sigh*) a distortion of the language's plain meaning.
Yes it is, and those kind of posts are detrimental to the overall flow and feel of this board.
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It's OK. You can bop me on the nose instead of Tim. I know you don't like what Tim said, but you won't admit it. No one should like it. It's an affront. It's disgusting. But... let the great SabreSpace Backtracking begin, in the fine tradition of this board.
Talking to me? I'm the problem? The GM just said he wants his team to miss the playoffs again next year, and I'm the villain?
As is the fine tradition of your nonsense. You take one quote from an article, label it "rhetoric" and then extrapolate it out to be the philosophy of GMTM to be set in stone going forward.
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And to bring it back full circle, how is Grigorenko supposed to show anything this year when he gets the same ice time/opportunity that Hodgson gets? With the understanding that Hodgson was an established NHL scorer prior to this season, and is struggling to put up points given the usage/lack of ice time, how do we expect Grigorenko to show anything given Nolan's player usage?
Bc Hodsgon is scoring roughly the same amount even strength as he always has,
Young kids like Grig arent normally give 20 mins of ice time when they are that young, unless they are killing it.
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Oh I add more stats to mine. Right now Hodgson is the #2 RW in points on this team while garnering bottom 6 ice time.
Bc he plays center and the two top producing RWs were traded?
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I've been looking for PP TOI and I can't seem to find it. If I did find it, I would point out (based on your stats above) that Hodgson has 81 mins of PP time this year, compared to 475 mins in 13/14. That's a pretty small sample size this year that could normalize a bit if he got the 400+ mins he got last year. That and instead of him, we've been giving PP time to Flynn. That's my issue.
and he had 125 total the year prior but produced more
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Yeah you nailed it. :wallbash:
Flynn and Mitchell have a whopping 13 and 17 points compared to Hodgson's 11 this season. That is pretty insignificant considering Flynn and Mitchell were generally playing with "2nd line" talent and had nearly 3 mins a game more ice time. Thats like 4-5 shifts a game.
Right and all the guys with top 6 minutes have the most points.
Flynn and Mitchell play the PK and thats where those extra shifts come from.
But please continue to say how Ted Nolan is holding back Hodgson from scoring another 30 points
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I don't know how many more stats I can give you stating the contrary.
Hodgson's time on ice/game in the 2013/14 season was 18:08, basically even with Vanek and Moulson. With that additional 5 mins of ice time per game, he was our most productive offensive player, leading the team in points, second in goals and third in shots generated. That's playing the year in a top 6 role rather than with the likes of McCormick and Deslauriers.
Because you're looking at it wrong
this year he has 1pt for every 81 mins of PP time
13/14 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time
12/13 -- 1 pt for every 25 mins of PP time
So his production is way off on the PP ---- and what I'm saying is that's where hes dropped off, and where his points are missing. So looking at these numbers he's not going to score all that much more playing the PP that many more minutes.
He's awful on the PP this year, and part of that is losing guys like Vanek and Pommers the last two years. Now he has no one and he's not producing.
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Anyways, I can't tell from the "Sabrespace..." post if you actually don't understand what people are talking about or you just don't care because you think they are wrong.
Ted Nolan rewards the guys who play the style of hockey he likes regardless of that style producing any on ice results.
No he doesn't Look at points and ice time with forwards. The guys who score generally play more
Of the forwards with the most ice time, theyre all producing more points than the guys below them with the exception of Hodgson........
If anything he's getting more ice time than his points show he should, and he's being outscored by HOFers like Foligno and Deslauriers even though they get much less ice.
So Nolan does not only reward one type....he plays the top 6 who produce the most POINTS
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Dude, Hodgson lead the team in points last year in an equally bad team. Led the team in points.
This year he has gotten the 23rd most time on ice/game on the Sabres at 12:59 min/game. That is below such awesome players as Flynn (17th 15:53), Mitchell (18th 15:20), Mezaros (12th 17:38) and Benoit (9th 18:28). That's even below AHL guys like Varone and Armia and right next to Cody McC. How you expect him to have even remotely close to the production with limited ice time is beyond me. Despite all that he is still 6th on the team in shots (i.e. basis of Corsi/offense).
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20152BUFSASALL&sort=avgTOIPerGame&viewName=summary
Of course its beyond......... he's getting about the same amount of even strength time, he's not getting the additional PP time because he's been awful on it.
Sorry but 1 point all year on the PP is pathetic and he doesn't deserve to play more on that unit. So when 20-40% of his points in his better years come from the PP and 1% of his points do this year, it means he's having a bad year and more time will not mean more production.
I listen to a lot of NHL talk around the league and read a ton of stuff. NO ONE is saying we are using Hodgson wrong.... he's having a horrible year.
Why you think giving him more PP time will magically increase his production when the numbers show otherwise is beyond me.
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Demonstrably false? No one on this team is producing. Only select guys are benched or criticized for not producing.
When Meszaros was playing like a piece of trash at the start of the season, Teddy stuck with him. I've never heard him chastise him. Yes he was eventually benched, but he keeps giving him chances.
Matt Moulson is paid good money to score goals. He is not scoring goals. He still plays a regular shift and the power play and has never been bumped off the top two lines.
Brian Flynn and Torrey Mitchell did not produce. At all. They were given tons of ice time, in Flynn's case, even on the power play, where he has done absolutely nothing.
As much as I love him, Zemgus has sucked on the power play. One goal, a handful of assists. Yet he is thrown out there on the first unit every time.
Your Hodgson example actually supports my point. The guy is a proven PP producer. It's one off the few things he can contribute. Why is he not being used in that role when others, who are not producing there, are?
No it does not. He's playing the only guys who produce....even if its little production. So the guys who are producing the most, counted by points, are usually getting the most playing time. So yes its true.
And Meszaros has sucked, which is why he's getting the least amount of ice.
Hodgson does not prove your point at all. He's not scoring on the PP when he's playing. Thats the freaking point. He has 1 PP point allllllll season. His production on the PP has plummeted and thats why his scoring is down. His numbers breakdown don't support your position at all. He's scoring less per PP min than any point in recent memory.... and that's because the PP sucks and . We could double his PP time and his production would still be way down.
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I'm with Ink.
On what basis would you infer that Nolan is "really respected around the league"? If anything, I'd infer that, outside of Latvia, hockey people don't think much of him.
And what would be the basis of that?
He was considered a respected coach when he was let go from NYI, he earned lots of praise for the Olympics etc.
He does get respect as a hockey coach, his problem is he clashes with mgt.
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But they do. This is what I mean with confusing effort with results and by being one-dimensional.
Exhibits A, B, C and D: Moulson, Flynn, Meszaros and Mitchell.
You "earn" icetime with Teddy by being a veteran, and/or by skating hard in straight lines.
It doesn't seem to matter how effective you are, as long as you fit the profile.
And if you don't fit Teddy's profile, it doesn't matter how effective you are at other things, you're gonna sit.
But that's demonstrably false. The guys producing points are getting mroe ice than those who aren't... except for Grigs, he gettings 15 mins of ice with no points and poor effort.
Meszaros is getting the least amount of ice time so what do you mean?
And if you want to talk about Hodson......... He's getting roughly the same amount of 5on5 time as he always has and he's producing the same as he always did there....... the diff in him is he's not scoring on the PP mostly bc the team's PP is god awful. It's not a misuse of him, he's never been really strong 5on5.
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The problem is Nolan only recognizes and understands 1 type of effort.
What are the other kinds of effort he isnt recognizing?
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He doesn't over-coach. That's a quote from Ted Nolan. "The game today is over-coached"....that's indicative of his approach to the game. Sorry if it was unclear.
That makes perfect sense.
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Again, I'm not sure TN is the answer, but he is really respected around the league, (even if personally disliked), and the notion that he doesnt give his skill players ice time just isnt true. He does, but he really stresses effort.
But I mean what's he supposed to say after every game? He can't say we just don't have the talent, so when players float around or aren't hustling it's what he has to pick on.
But also look at the best teams around the league, they are flying up and down the ice too, the game is one where effort is at a premium and winning the 50/50 pucks makes all the difference.
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. I'm pretty sure even Ted Nolan wouldn't much dispute it. His method has been unvarying, overpower your opponent with effort. His approach is a blunt instrument, the game is over-coached, just get a 4th line effort from everyone on your Roster.
Now how you see that approach and it's potential for working over a 80+ game season is pretty much how you see Nolan.
The Forwards leading on ice time are zemgus moulson ennis gionta, stewart stafford.
He didnt bury any talented guys when he was with the Isles,
When he won coach of the year he had a team of no talent grinders, is that his fault? He's probably not the answer but I think you are wrong stating his philosphy is ONLY to play grinders.
How in the hell can you say he's over coaching from watching the game on TV? How exactly is he overcoaching? If anything he's known for undercoaching because he doesnt even go over Xs and Os, he's a feel the game kinda coach
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Nice dudacek. That's exactly what I was trying to articulate.
Ted Nolan only knows how to win and in one build a successful team mold. That mold relies on a great goaltender and a team full of Girgensens type players. We don't have that and will not have that at any point in the future given the high-end talent that GMTM is aiming to acquire. Thus, I think that Nolan's time is coming to an end at the end of the year.
Oh and Grigorenko still has plenty of time to grow into a NHL player. He has shown the willingness to improve in Rochester and falls victim of being a bit overconfident in his talent level/ability.
Coaches don't build teams. He only has what GMTM gives him. He may not be a great coach, but to say he only know how to win one way is pretty asinine. How do you know that?
I see some say he's holding back Gionta and Stewart? Those guys havent had good seasons in years, well before TN came along.
He's been given a pile of dog crap (for tank purposes) and some are actually saying he just isnt using them right? Anyone outside of Buffalo knows this team couldn't win with any coach behind the bench.
Nolan has never had top talent on a team so there's no way to say that.
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Can you share the site? I don't remember Grigorenko ever getting a fair shake.
Can you also link an article where it was reported that he rubbed the vets the wrong way?
I believe it was hockey analysis .com or something similar.
And I'll look for the article. It was a year or so ago that he was given a spot on the team wihtout earning it, Hamilton reported it bothered guys in the room.
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Players hated Grigorenko? Grigorenko was put on the top line? I don't think either of those things ever happened.
I understand that it helps teams when there's a pecking order based on what was earned, but when your team is the worst in the league, who cares that 2 lines of AHL plugs might be jealous that Grigorenko is a player with god given talent and is being developed as such?
To the bolded... okay? That came out of nowhere and I still don't understand why you asked it. I said that Nolan would have no problem with McDavid.
Murray has a system? Do we know that system? So far all I can tell is that he likes big bodies who can skate, so he's following the LA blueprint. Grigorenko is not a one dimensional player. Just because he's not ready for the NHL doesn't mean that he all of the sudden can't play defense. Jeebus.
Yes- he rubbed many vets the wrong way with his attitude and lack of work ethic. He's had top line minutes and even spent time on the PP in other years. There's an analytics site that shows his most common linemates are mostly top 6 forwards. I believe he's played the most with Stewart this year.Those things did happen. To say he hasnt had his chances would be wrong.
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Cutler to this point has underwhelmed, too.
:flirt: well played
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Good points. Good debate. Just don't tell me you're against the tank. I need a break.
I have no complaints about how GMTM has put this team together. I really like his strategy.
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I agree that's Grigorenko is not ready, and I stated that above. But I don't think he is being put into a position to develop or succeed with the current lineup and coaching staff. I think he should be in Rochester until August 2015.
You must be referring to Phil Kessel, and I am sure there are plenty of other examples of skill guys who lack fight for the puck. I say it in jest, because to your point, Grigorenko is not producing, so I cannot put him in that light. Right or wrong, it is a style of hockey that most Russians get blasted for. Shouldn't GM's and scouts see that before they draft a Russian?
True, Kessel takes shifts off but scores, and he does hustle quite a bit at times. Grig can't skate like him but that's another point. I totally agree Grig needs to stay down, it's not like he's lighting it up down there but I hear he has been playing well.
Many teams do have those reservations about russians, I mean look at 51, missing team events. Russians are trying hard to fight those notions by playing juniors over here.
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I was referring specifically to players that need to be put in a position to succeed. ie Hodgson, Grigorenko. I also never said a single thing about elite NHL talent.
If he's going to be here, put him in a position to succeed. Not every player is the same. Nolan seems unable to get anything out of players that don't fit his mantra.
Sorry but that's why players hated Grigo when he was first up.... put on the top line despite him floating around and not producing.
IF he had produced a little when he's had his chances playing on top two lines (and he has had those opps) it would be a diff story. He's consistently failed to produce and you don't just hand players those chances time and time again when they aren't contributing. That's not how pro sports works. Can't keep playing him on the top lines when he's playing like an AHL or 4th line player. He has to show something and he's not. It's that simple.
Murray has eye on top pick — in 2016
in The Aud Club
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Right.
As if GMs need the media to communicate.... its not like the hockey community is a small world :doh: . GMs and front offices talk all the time. they don't need the media to do it for them.