Penguins explore options

[Vaive22]

OK, OK, everybody calm down. Let Sabretooth rant, he is speaking many truths. There are some in Pgh who very much enjoy hockey and can talk about it very intelligently. But a good deal of the population barely knows about the hockey team, unless they are winning. That is one of the things here, unless the team is winning, nobody will talk bout them. But as soon as they win a few games in a row, or beat a very good team (ie Buffalo), all they talk about is how good their team is.

 

Seriously speaking, I have gone into a bar/restaurant on a hockey night in Pgh, and the game won't even be on. Go into a bar in Buffalo, any bar, and the Sabres game will be on the TV's, right? The Pens are definitely 3rd on the sporting list in this town.

 

It comes down to money, and Mario and his group have been losing money for a while, with no help from the city, state and etc. He has to do what is best for his investment, and right now, to me that his going to KC for a free arena. Unless Pgh can come up with something better. It is a shame, but that is business.

[nfreeman]

It would be a crime if the Pens left Pittsburgh. Being from Buffalo looking at Pittsburgh is like looking in a mirror. Pittsburgh is a great sports town and the NHL will be lessor if they were allowed to leave.

 

Teams that should move are the Devils, Washington and the Islanders. Their attendance this year is sad and it brings the entire NHL down. 19 of the 30 NHL teams are at 91.2% of capacity or greater. While New Jersey is

at 69.4 down from a sad 74.7. This a team the contends every year. Since 2000-2001 the Devils have averaged only 77.7 capacity. For the record Buffalo is at 89.18 for the same time period.

 

And for those who say hockey doesn't work in the south. Tampa Bay is 3rd in attendance with 19,828 tickets sold per game. Even Florida is over 15,000 per game. Not bad for a team in yet another rebuilding program. Atlanta is over 16,000 per game and the Canes are over 17,000 per game.

 

A note about the Sabres. They are 8th in home attendance and 8th in home & away combined attendance.

 

Very interesting post. In response, I'll note:

 

1. NJ -- they are indeed moving, although it's not clear to me that this will get them to the 90% or so of capacity that one would think is warranted given their success. Their attendance to date (like that of the Nets) has clearly been hurt by the fact that the Meadowlands are such a GD pain in the butt to get to. It's almost inconceivable for anyone who lives and/or works in NYC to go to a weeknight game there. Now, I'm not convinced that a move to Newark, which isn't much of a city (and what city there is is much more of an inner city than a classic hockey town), is going to solve the problem, but there is always a bump from a new arena.

 

2. Islanders -- this team has been a joke for years. I don't think the problem here is lack of community passion. I've been there and the house rocks for a good game. No city (including Buffalo) supports a franchise that is pathetic year after year. Give Teddy a couple of years to get them into the playoffs on a consistent basis and you'll see attendance shoot up above 90%. Also, I expect this team to move eventually to the new arena that is being built in Brooklyn. I don't think Nassau county will build one just for hockey, and the new one in Brooklyn, which will have basketball (the nets) but not hockey, will be only 20 mile or so away from the current one. The Brooklyn arena will be incredibly easy to get to via mass transit. I expect a huge attendance gain if this happens.

 

3. Capitals -- like the Islanders, this team has been a joke for years. Abe Pollin is one of the worst 5 owners in pro sports -- it's not a coincidence that the Wizards also stink year after year. DC may be a lame town in terms of hockey, but it's unfair to judge them based on the crappy product that's been offered to them virtually every year.

 

As for the Penguins -- the deal that's been offered by KC is so rich that I'm pretty sure Mario will take it unless (i) another city tops it or (ii) someone comes along to take the team (and this problem) off his hands.

 

Holy cow it's been a while since the last Sabres game, hasn't it?

[shrader]

OK, OK, everybody calm down. Let Sabretooth rant, he is speaking many truths. There are some in Pgh who very much enjoy hockey and can talk about it very intelligently. But a good deal of the population barely knows about the hockey team, unless they are winning. That is one of the things here, unless the team is winning, nobody will talk bout them. But as soon as they win a few games in a row, or beat a very good team (ie Buffalo), all they talk about is how good their team is.

 

Is that really any different than any other American city (or most of them anyway)?

 

 

73, you're coming across so whiny with your rants here, so you're going to get those reactions.

[blugold43]

Someone should start a separate thread where 73 and bluegold can comfort each other in their tear-filled, engraged state.

no rage here...my b.p. hasn't gone up a point. i am just sick of hearing about the penguins' problems and wish they would disappear. unlike sabretooth, i don't hate the city. i have family there. and i used to root for the pirates, back when they still played major league baseball 15 years ago. i hate the steelers of course, but i funded a trip to the formula 1 race in montreal last summer off my steelers playoff winnings in 06, so they can't be all bad.

 

but i just find that hockey team annoying. i find lemieux annoying. i find their announcer annoying...what was his name? lang? i hear he retired, but whatever, he still annoys me. i can still hear his annoying droning voice. i find many many of their current and former players annoying...all except stu barnes. i just think it would be awesome if they ceased to exist. i don't want them to move...i want them to evaporate. no more penguins, no more penguins jerseys...ha ha you don't exist any more :nana:

 

tell me that wouldn't be sweet.

 

btw, they will wind up getting their building and staying in pittsburgh...that's my gut feeling anyway. kansas city will never make it as an nhl city.

[Bmwolf21]

2. Islanders -- this team has been a joke for years. I don't think the problem here is lack of community passion. I've been there and the house rocks for a good game. No city (including Buffalo) supports a franchise that is pathetic year after year. Give Teddy a couple of years to get them into the playoffs on a consistent basis and you'll see attendance shoot up above 90%. Also, I expect this team to move eventually to the new arena that is being built in Brooklyn. I don't think Nassau county will build one just for hockey, and the new one in Brooklyn, which will have basketball (the nets) but not hockey, will be only 20 mile or so away from the current one. The Brooklyn arena will be incredibly easy to get to via mass transit. I expect a huge attendance gain if this happens.

I spoke with a rep from the Islanders about a job last year, and he seemed pretty enthusiastic about the Nassau Coliseum renovations and the athletic complex & hotel/condo tower being built around there. From the limited info I have found online, it looks like those talks have stalled, somewhat. I hadn't heard anything about the Isles moving to the Brooklyn arena, but IIRC, that project hasn't even broken ground yet, so it will be interesting to see which way they end up going.

[Sabretooth73]

whiny? i dont think so

just stating my dislike of the team, and that city

nothing whiny about it,

if i liked that city does it make me not whiny?

great point shrader

 

i dont feel or wouldnt feel bad if that dump lost that team, periiod

i wish nothing but the worst for that city

just my opinion, not a rant, but i guess if it doesnt agree with yours then i am wrong, thats the typical response from some

[Bmwolf21]

73, I don't think anyone is saying your opinion isn't valid or anything like that - it's just that one rant = funny; multiple rants in the same thread about the same thing = repetitive and obnoxious.

[Sabretooth73]

just defending my stance, not sayin same thing over and over

i guess thats wrong too, what a joke

another great point from another "expert"

[Bmwolf21]

just defending my stance, not sayin same thing over and over

i guess thats wrong too, what a joke

another great point from another "expert"

OK.... :blink:

Exhibit A:

F Shittsburgh, i detest that filthy city and all the backwards, trashy bums that live there. I DO hope they leave, I dont want anything positive to happen to that dump of a town. Theyve already got 5 superbowls, a world series or 2, 2 stanley cups, wtf else do you want them to have?

 

I must mention im somewhat bitter, obviously about this topic. My in-laws live there and I alwyas dread visiting that dump. Seriously though, i cannot stand that city. People saying "yins" and "hos" or "don ton"...WTF!

 

f sHITTSBURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exhibit B:

F $hittsburgh, that dump of a city doesnt deserve a hockey team.

To be honest they dont even deserve to have a baseball team, they draw about as well as the Bisons do. That is one of the filthiest, dirtiest, disgusting cities Ive ever been to. I cant stand that $hittsburgh dialect either, wtf is "yins" supposed to mean? And how about "don-ton" instead of downtown. They also say things are "slippy", instead of slippery, and say "neby" instead of "being nosy". The list goes on and on. Not to mention all of those dumpy houses built right on top of each other everywhere you look. That city is a MF-in cest-pool. I hope they leave, and take the baseball team with em.

Exhibit C:

Its not just a "rant"

Well, maybe it is, but so what.

My in-laws live there, and I dread every visit to that dump.

To me, ifs by far the filthiest, most disgusting cest pool ive ever visited.

They have the "steelers", and "pirates"

Both have won wr=orld championships.

Buffalo has none

My father inlaw says Buffalo is a dirty city, and thinks $hittsburgh is the greatest city on earth.

Ive never seen so many filthy, uneducated people in one area.

"yins"....WTF is that?

maybe i dont see all the "good parts" or dont wanna see em bc im so upset about being there, with my inlaws. Who knows.

Even the guy from $hittsburgh who lives there now said he agrees with me.

Buffalo, to me, is a far greater city than that dump. And what the F is a "stiller"? They cant even pronounce their own teams name correctly. F that dump, give NYC a 3rd team for all i care, as long as $hittsburgh dont have one anymore.

Exhibit D:

good to hear blugold, tired of hearing about people "feeling sorry for them"

like that dump hasnt had their share of championships, undeserving as they are, WTF!

Time for Buffalo to start winning some, starting with this years sabres, then the Bills making the playoffs next season, and doing a F of a lot better than the jets and chefs did this year.

 

Four posts in one thread where your only points are: F $hittsburgh; they talk funny; and its a dump. Not agreeing or disagreeing with your points, but getting a little repetitive with your point. But hey, what do I know, I'm not an "expert"... <_<

[SDS]

Four posts in one thread where your only points are: F $hittsburgh; they talk funny; and its a dump. Not agreeing or disagreeing with your points, but getting a little repetitive with your point. But hey, what do I know, I'm not an "expert"... <_>

 

regardless of the repetition, I think the overriding point here is that agree/disagree - a poster has to know how to conduct themselves in a group. If every post turns into a pissing match then the poster needs to evaluate how they conduct themselves (I am not referring to you!)

[deluca67]

Very interesting post. In response, I'll note:

 

1. NJ -- they are indeed moving, although it's not clear to me that this will get them to the 90% or so of capacity that one would think is warranted given their success. Their attendance to date (like that of the Nets) has clearly been hurt by the fact that the Meadowlands are such a GD pain in the butt to get to. It's almost inconceivable for anyone who lives and/or works in NYC to go to a weeknight game there. Now, I'm not convinced that a move to Newark, which isn't much of a city (and what city there is is much more of an inner city than a classic hockey town), is going to solve the problem, but there is always a bump from a new arena.

 

2. Islanders -- this team has been a joke for years. I don't think the problem here is lack of community passion. I've been there and the house rocks for a good game. No city (including Buffalo) supports a franchise that is pathetic year after year. Give Teddy a couple of years to get them into the playoffs on a consistent basis and you'll see attendance shoot up above 90%. Also, I expect this team to move eventually to the new arena that is being built in Brooklyn. I don't think Nassau county will build one just for hockey, and the new one in Brooklyn, which will have basketball (the nets) but not hockey, will be only 20 mile or so away from the current one. The Brooklyn arena will be incredibly easy to get to via mass transit. I expect a huge attendance gain if this happens.

 

3. Capitals -- like the Islanders, this team has been a joke for years. Abe Pollin is one of the worst 5 owners in pro sports -- it's not a coincidence that the Wizards also stink year after year. DC may be a lame town in terms of hockey, but it's unfair to judge them based on the crappy product that's been offered to them virtually every year.

 

As for the Penguins -- the deal that's been offered by KC is so rich that I'm pretty sure Mario will take it unless (i) another city tops it or (ii) someone comes along to take the team (and this problem) off his hands.

 

Holy cow it's been a while since the last Sabres game, hasn't it?

 

It seems like a month.

 

Anyway,

 

I'd be willign to cut some slack to the Ises and Caps. The Devils have had a Cup contender since they took the green out of their uniforms. Between NY and NJ they have what 20 million to draw from?

 

I do understand Mario's money problem and the whole arena deal. I just hate the idea of the NHL becoming like the NFL where fans mean little or nothing. Cities where fans are turning out shouldn't be held hostage beacuse of the corporate dollar. And that's what we are talking about here. The NFL is more concerned about selling the boxes than anything else. I hate to the NHL fall into that trap. The future of the NHL is and always will be the fans in the seats. With the team that the Pens are building? That may end being the toughest ticket in the NHL to get in the near future.

 

Here is a question. If the Pens move to one of the cities named thus far. Wouldn't that put them in the Western Conference? I would hate to lose that talent in the East. Which team would move to the East? Nashville? Columbus? Detroit?

[shrader]

Columbus would move east. Detroit will continue to whine, but the league will never separate them and Chicago.

 

 

Here's what I don't understand about the Pittsburgh situation. Why did the city build separate baseball and football stadiums? To me, building an outdoor stadium for both sports and then using the other money for an indoor arena makes far more sense. A modern indoor arena is a good money maker for a city, especially in the winter when those outdoor stadiums wouldn't be used for much anyway.

 

Now that I think about it, I don't know the situation with some of these newer outdoor stadiums that have been built recently. Did the Phillies and Eagles get separate buildings like the Steelers and Pirates did?

[Bmwolf21]

Yeah, they did make separate facilities for the Phillies (Citizens Bank Park) and Eagles (Lincoln Financial Field); they are located in the same waterfront area as the Wachovia Spectrum and Wachovia Center. (GOOGLE MAPS LINK)

 

I don't think many places even consider going with the multi-use stadiums now - I think most teams, cities and leagues prefer the one-sport, one-tenant configuration as opposed to having to share the facility, maintenance and revenues.

[SCSabresFan!]

Pittsburgh - a case study in Stadiums

 

More on the Pens move

 

Clear or not, four years later the Pirates and Steelers were playing in two new stadiums paid for primarily with public tax dollars. Despite his election-day warning, Mayor Murphy organized a plan B working group immediately after the referendum, which quickly and successfully devised a strategy to finance these new stadiums publicly without a popular vote. The total price tag of these stadiums was more than $500 million, with most of the revenues accruing to the teams.

 

"It's really up to the public sector now to come to us and say, 'We're ready to sit and talk about the arena.' The clock is ticking: 2007 is when the team could leave town, and that possibility is real." -Ken Sawyer, Lemieux's team president, 2004

 

PNC Park to move unless better team is fielded.

 

Things to chew on. :D

[nfreeman]

It seems like a month.

 

Anyway,

 

I'd be willign to cut some slack to the Ises and Caps. The Devils have had a Cup contender since they took the green out of their uniforms. Between NY and NJ they have what 20 million to draw from?

I do understand Mario's money problem and the whole arena deal. I just hate the idea of the NHL becoming like the NFL where fans mean little or nothing. Cities where fans are turning out shouldn't be held hostage beacuse of the corporate dollar. And that's what we are talking about here. The NFL is more concerned about selling the boxes than anything else. I hate to the NHL fall into that trap. The future of the NHL is and always will be the fans in the seats. With the team that the Pens are building? That may end being the toughest ticket in the NHL to get in the near future.

 

Here is a question. If the Pens move to one of the cities named thus far. Wouldn't that put them in the Western Conference? I would hate to lose that talent in the East. Which team would move to the East? Nashville? Columbus? Detroit?

 

In theory I agree with you about the Devils. However, I live in NYC and I really do believe that the location of the arena is an insurmountable obstacle. To make a long story short, with the Rangers and the Islanders on the scene, nobody from NYC is going to be a Devils fan. It would be like living in Buffalo and being a Maple Leafs fan. Yes you will have the odd transplant but there will be no mass support.

 

So that leaves NJ natives, of which there are millions. Can't they support the team better? Maybe, but getting to and from a game there is a HUGE pain in the butt. If you live in NJ but work in NYC (as millions of people do), there is no public transportation from NYC other than buses, and almost no public transportation to get home after the game. So you need to drive into work that day, which will cost at least $50-$75 between tolls and parking (yes, it's that expensive) -- and that doesn't include parking at the arena -- and depending on where you work in NYC, it can easily take 2 hours to get to the Meadowlands for a 7 or 7:30 PM weeknight game. If you live and work in NJ, you're a little better off, but you still need to drive to the game into the teeth of incredible traffic.

 

Newark, on the other hand, has much more public transport options (ie trains from NYC). Between that and the new arena, I expect a significant jump in attendance.

 

 

Bmwolf -- I haven't heard any talk about the Islanders moving to brooklyn either. It's just a pet theory of mine that is near and dear to me since I live in Brooklyn. With that said, I think it's a very real possibility, since as you point out talks have stalled on Nassau renovations/new arena. The Brooklyn arena is going to happen -- it's just taking forever, like all NYC construction. So in 3 years, there will be a brand spanking new arena with plenty of club seats and boxes, smack dab in the middle of about 15 million people -- and in the same building as a Long Island Railroad terminal and about 10 different subway lines. All those Islander fans can easily stop in for the game on their way home. Plus there are a bunch of yuppies in brooklyn who grew up with hockey but don't want to shell out $150+ per ticket for Rangers seats. If there is no new development on Long Island before then, I think it will happen.

[BuffalOhio]

Its not just a "rant"

Well, maybe it is, but so what.

My in-laws live there, and I dread every visit to that dump.

To me, ifs by far the filthiest, most disgusting cest pool ive ever visited.

They have the "steelers", and "pirates"

Both have won wr=orld championships.

Buffalo has none

My father inlaw says Buffalo is a dirty city, and thinks $hittsburgh is the greatest city on earth.

Ive never seen so many filthy, uneducated people in one area.

"yins"....WTF is that?

maybe i dont see all the "good parts" or dont wanna see em bc im so upset about being there, with my inlaws. Who knows.

Even the guy from $hittsburgh who lives there now said he agrees with me.

Buffalo, to me, is a far greater city than that dump. And what the F is a "stiller"? They cant even pronounce their own teams name correctly. F that dump, give NYC a 3rd team for all i care, as long as $hittsburgh dont have one anymore.

 

Have you ever been to Detroit? I think that's by far the worst city in America. Absolute dump!

 

 

 

3. Capitals -- like the Islanders, this team has been a joke for years. Abe Pollin is one of the worst 5 owners in pro sports -- it's not a coincidence that the Wizards also stink year after year. DC may be a lame town in terms of hockey, but it's unfair to judge them based on the crappy product that's been offered to them virtually every year.

 

 

Ted Leonsis owns the Capitals.

[Doohicksie]

Whiny? Maybe. Irrelevant to a discussion of whether the Pens are moving? Certainly. Now move along. Really. Shoo!

 

Here's what I don't understand about the Pittsburgh situation. Why did the city build separate baseball and football stadiums? To me, building an outdoor stadium for both sports and then using the other money for an indoor arena makes far more sense. A modern indoor arena is a good money maker for a city, especially in the winter when those outdoor stadiums wouldn't be used for much anyway.

 

Now that I think about it, I don't know the situation with some of these newer outdoor stadiums that have been built recently. Did the Phillies and Eagles get separate buildings like the Steelers and Pirates did?

The new Tigers and Lions stadiums are separate and right next to each other, while Joe Louis Arena gets older and older.

 

Have you ever been to Detroit? I think that's by far the worst city in America. Absolute dump!

Detroit is a very spotty city. When I was there in the 90s, almost no one of any means actually lived there. There were districts that were pretty nice- the sports comlex areas, theatre district, Greektown, hospital/Wayne State area, but in general, the place is a war zone. I remember finding this out the hard way when I turned the wrong way coming off the freeway :o . They have come up a long way in terms of housing with the renovation lofts providing upscale housing in the city, but now that the auto industry is cooling down again, I see that movement losing momentum. It's a blue collar city with very white collar suburbs.

[evil_otto]

PNC Park to move unless better team is fielded.

 

Things to chew on. :D

Haha, great satire on corporate welfare.

 

Detroit is a very spotty city. When I was there in the 90s, almost no one of any means actually lived there. There were districts that were pretty nice- the sports comlex areas, theatre district, Greektown, hospital/Wayne State area, but in general, the place is a war zone. I remember finding this out the hard way when I turned the wrong way coming off the freeway :o . They have come up a long way in terms of housing with the renovation lofts providing upscale housing in the city, but now that the auto industry is cooling down again, I see that movement losing momentum. It's a blue collar city with very white collar suburbs.

I visit the Detroit area frequently and it still seems that way. Certain parts of downtown are nice, but if you make that wrong turn or take the wrong exit, you do start to fear for your life! The suburbs are a completely different story.

[Doohicksie]

I don't doubt it. There were many neighborhoods of grand old homes that were boarded up. I used to commute through the city and you could drive through miles of what looked like war zone. The old Cass Corridor has been cleaned up some, from what I hear (that's where a lot of the renovation took place), but the rest of the city is as it was.

 

The weird thing is when we lived there, my wife worked in the city limits. Though I was apprehensive at first, she never had a problem. (She worked as a retailer in the theater district, then she sold Pampered Chef and did really well in the city cuz everyone else was afraid to go in there. They ended up being her most profitable shows.)

[ExiledInIllinois]

I visit the Detroit area frequently and it still seems that way. Certain parts of downtown are nice, but if you make that wrong turn or take the wrong exit, you do start to fear for your life! The suburbs are a completely different story.

 

So are parts of Chicago... Where I work... Some nice areas... Others spotty... My advice, if you get a flat... Drive on the rim!

 

18 miles to the south in the suburbs... You can go from +million dollar digs to the poorest community/suburb in the nation within a 10 mile drive...

 

Look at where the University of Chicago sits... Hyde Park, wander a few blocks away... And things can get dicey...

 

It is called MAJOR city and diversity... Most of them have it...

 

Even the friggan NorthSiders aren't immune... A little better... But, in the end you pay for your "posh digs".

 

Oh... Where the UC is on Madison, west of the Loop... One thing I don't look forward tonight with a young kid... At least it will be cold... Just gotta keep your wits about you and carry yourself well...

 

<_<