Guest Amazing Grant Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 In fairness, Biron stopped 34 of 36 for the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Amazing Grant Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Just to clarify, obviously I know you're referring to Miller's time in Rochester. I wasn't correcting you. But I was pointing out that Biron is still playing uber-hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSabre Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 If Lindy did not have a history of riding a goalie way too long and/or one of the 2 were clearly better than the other, I would agree with you about not rotating the goalies. But Lindy has not handled the goalies well in the past and although Ryan outplayed Marty in the preseason, Marty's play in the last 2-3 weeks has been slightly better than Ryan's was (IMHO). I don't think either has clearly won the title of "starter". Until one does, I'd like to see roughly a 3-2 rotation which could be adjusted based on play. I would not adjust more than 4-1. just go with the hot one. seems sensible to me. biron is going to need a break soon, then play miller and if he plays well play him till he needs a rest/plays badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 just go with the hot one. seems sensible to me. biron is going to need a break soon, then play miller and if he plays well play him till he needs a rest/plays badly. Had Marty not shown himself to be weaker mentally than an NHL goalie should be and/or had Marty not been playing out of his mind lately, I would agree with that plan. Considering Marty can lose focus fairly readily, I would not want to risk having Marty sit for an extended period of time. He does appear to be tougher mentally this season than he has in seasons past. That said, I am not convinced he has improved enough in this capacity to risk sitting him for an extended period of time and then expecting him to play at his current level. I will admit that he has played much better in the 1st half of this season than he has in seasons past. Considering he typically picks up his level of play in the 2nd half of the season, if the Sabres keep him and trade Mika, he should get the larger portion of the rotation w/ Ryan when Ryan comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 If Lindy did not have a history of riding a goalie way too long and/or one of the 2 were clearly better than the other, I would agree with you about not rotating the goalies. But Lindy has not handled the goalies well in the past and although Ryan outplayed Marty in the preseason, Marty's play in the last 2-3 weeks has been slightly better than Ryan's was (IMHO). I don't think either has clearly won the title of "starter". Until one does, I'd like to see roughly a 3-2 rotation which could be adjusted based on play. I would not adjust more than 4-1. daveb -- I've noticed you and others making this point before and I think I disagree. I think we were all happy with Dominik getting all of the starts he could handle -- so what we're really talking about is whether, after Dom left, Lindy played Marty too much at the expense of Mika or otherwise mishandled the rotation in such a way as to impair either of their development. In the 1st year post-Dominik, Marty got 72 starts. 2nd year, 54. 3rd year, 52. Mika got 10, then 16, then 35. Those numbers suggest to me the following: 1. Marty can't possibly have any complaints about not getting enough chances. 2. Lindy really wanted Marty to become the #1 goalie, whether based on physical potential, accomplishment at lower levels, high draft pick or whatever. I will also theorize that Lindy felt that Marty needed a lot of starts to keep his confidence going. 3. Mika didn't get much of a shot in the 1st couple of years but got plenty of chances in the 3rd year. The numbers generally jibe with my recollection of Marty getting (and blowing) one opportunity after another. I also recall Lindy giving up and going to a rotation in 03-04, and neither goalie really stepping up to grab the job (FWIW, in 03-04 Marty's GAA was 2.52 and Mika's was 2.57). That takes us to this year. I totally supported the decision to give all of the work to Miller -- mostly b/c I was so sick of Marty but also b/c I thought it was a good move to show both Miller and the team that Lindy had confidence in Miller. I thought Miller played with a lot of confidence, which contributed to his and the team's strong start. Conversely, I always thought the team didn't play as well in front of Marty as they did in front of Dominik b/c they lacked confidence in Marty. When Miller got hurt and Marty came in, I thought I detected the same deflation in the team's play -- and we immediately lost 5 out of 6. (Now I will admit that Marty has played decently and at times very well during this winning streak, and the team has not displayed a lack of confidence in him.) As for Mika, I would have liked to have seen him a bit earlier than we actually saw him this year. Again, though, I think Lindy felt that Marty needed a bunch of starts just to keep his confidence going. Also, Lindy immediately recognized that Mika played well against Boston and came right back to him the next night -- which says to me that all of the theories that have been posted on the board about Lindy having vendettas, keeping players in the doghouse for no reason, etc. are nonsense. Lindy then gave Mika another start when he recuperated from his injury and Mika was rusty and got shelled. Marty has been playing reasonably well, the team is winning with him, and we are past the grueling part of the schedule. I guess what I'm saying is that I am fine with the way Lindy has utilized Dom, Marty (even though I don't think Marty is that good, I think Lindy has given him plenty of good opportunities) and Miller. Arguably Mika could have gotten more chances, but Lindy is the one seeing what happens in practice, not me. And it's far from clear to me that a different handling of Mika would have resulted in his blossoming into a legit starting goalie. Either way, I'm hoping to see a finals reprise of McKee getting Modano in his sweet spot and crunching him into the boards tomorrow night. Go Sabres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeleslyobvious Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 just go with the hot one. seems sensible to me. biron is going to need a break soon, then play miller and if he plays well play him till he needs a rest/plays badly. So what do you propose when he cools off, and then the other 2 are rusty from lack of action? And what kind of message does that send to Miller? Go out have a great camp, almost break a rookie record in your first month of the season, have strong consideration for the Olympic team, and get hurt and get benched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 daveb -- I've noticed you and others making this point before and I think I disagree. I think we were all happy with Dominik getting all of the starts he could handle -- so what we're really talking about is whether, after Dom left, Lindy played Marty too much at the expense of Mika or otherwise mishandled the rotation in such a way as to impair either of their development. In the 1st year post-Dominik, Marty got 72 starts. 2nd year, 54. 3rd year, 52. Mika got 10, then 16, then 35. Those numbers suggest to me the following: 1. Marty can't possibly have any complaints about not getting enough chances. 2. Lindy really wanted Marty to become the #1 goalie, whether based on physical potential, accomplishment at lower levels, high draft pick or whatever. I will also theorize that Lindy felt that Marty needed a lot of starts to keep his confidence going. 3. Mika didn't get much of a shot in the 1st couple of years but got plenty of chances in the 3rd year. The numbers generally jibe with my recollection of Marty getting (and blowing) one opportunity after another. I also recall Lindy giving up and going to a rotation in 03-04, and neither goalie really stepping up to grab the job (FWIW, in 03-04 Marty's GAA was 2.52 and Mika's was 2.57). That takes us to this year. I totally supported the decision to give all of the work to Miller -- mostly b/c I was so sick of Marty but also b/c I thought it was a good move to show both Miller and the team that Lindy had confidence in Miller. I thought Miller played with a lot of confidence, which contributed to his and the team's strong start. Conversely, I always thought the team didn't play as well in front of Marty as they did in front of Dominik b/c they lacked confidence in Marty. When Miller got hurt and Marty came in, I thought I detected the same deflation in the team's play -- and we immediately lost 5 out of 6. (Now I will admit that Marty has played decently and at times very well during this winning streak, and the team has not displayed a lack of confidence in him.) As for Mika, I would have liked to have seen him a bit earlier than we actually saw him this year. Again, though, I think Lindy felt that Marty needed a bunch of starts just to keep his confidence going. Also, Lindy immediately recognized that Mika played well against Boston and came right back to him the next night -- which says to me that all of the theories that have been posted on the board about Lindy having vendettas, keeping players in the doghouse for no reason, etc. are nonsense. Lindy then gave Mika another start when he recuperated from his injury and Mika was rusty and got shelled. Marty has been playing reasonably well, the team is winning with him, and we are past the grueling part of the schedule. I guess what I'm saying is that I am fine with the way Lindy has utilized Dom, Marty (even though I don't think Marty is that good, I think Lindy has given him plenty of good opportunities) and Miller. Arguably Mika could have gotten more chances, but Lindy is the one seeing what happens in practice, not me. And it's far from clear to me that a different handling of Mika would have resulted in his blossoming into a legit starting goalie. Either way, I'm hoping to see a finals reprise of McKee getting Modano in his sweet spot and crunching him into the boards tomorrow night. Go Sabres. n, nice post. While I agree Lindy wanted Marty to be the starter in '01-'02, I disagree that he "wanted" Marty to be the starter after that. I think he hoped that someone would really step up and take the job, but when no one overwhelmingly did, he'd go and give the job back to Marty. In '03-'04, Ryan started the 1st 2 games of the season. That tells me that Lindy thought Ryan would be the starter or wanted him to be the starter. The Sabres scored a grand total of 0 goals in the 2 games and Ryan was stuck back in Rochester except for 1 ill advised game against the Red Wings. Personally, I'd have started Ryan 2 nights later against the Rangers (a team he had a chance of beating), but I definitely would not have started him against the Red Wings. (That Ryan start is one of the several occurances that stick in my memory and cause me to believe Lindy does not handle his goalies particularily well. As I've mentioned in other posts, hopefully now that Lindy does have more than 1 goalie playing well, he can show that he has learned how to handle goalies better than in the past. I doubt it but will give him the benefit of the doubt.) The 2 goalies did rotate for the most part in the 1st half of '03-'04, but after Ryan was called back up Lindy definitely went back to his run one goalie forever routine. In late Jan / Feb, Marty had 8 consecutive starts and then at the end of the season Marty started 15 of 16 games. (Mika prior to getting hurt had had 7 of 8 starts and then 4 in a row when he returned.) I guess it is because the 15 of 16 starts for Marty and long stretches of not getting to play in the previous seasons are why I have a tendency to feel Mika hasn't received a truly fair opportunity. In '03-'04, Mika played very well prior to his injury (IIRC, he had one of the top save %ages through the 1st half of the season). Did his stats go down after the injury due to the injury or not getting regular playing time? I don't have the answer to that one. As for this season, let's remember that at the time the Sabres had their losing skid they were playing the teams that were on fire in the East. Even so, had Marty or Mika not been rusty from getting 1 game between them prior to Ryan's injury, would they have played well enough to get another win or at least an OT loss and/or would the team have played with more confidence in front of them? Clearly we won't know the answer to that question, but I would have liked the Sabres chances more in those games had they had a goalie that wasn't ice cold and very rusty in net. When Dom was the goalie, I did not have a problem with playing him till he dropped. None of the Sabres 3 goalies are currently playing heads and shoulders better than the others (although Marty's win streak should merit him a bit of special consideration), so I don't think they should ride one until he drops. We can disagree on that point, that is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saber61 Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 So what do you propose when he cools off, and then the other 2 are rusty from lack of action? And what kind of message does that send to Miller? Go out have a great camp, almost break a rookie record in your first month of the season, have strong consideration for the Olympic team, and get hurt and get benched. this is why they pay ruff the big money... so we don't have to worry about making calls like this lol... i think biron should be left in until he loses a few as Dave said... then miller in... its the easiest way i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeleslyobvious Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 this is why they pay ruff the big money... so we don't have to worry about making calls like this lol... i think biron should be left in until he loses a few as Dave said... then miller in... its the easiest way i think. I worry about Miller getting rusty from doing it that way...and let's not forget all the talk about in the off season about old players bad mouthing the team...I think not giving Miller at least a shot at his job back would fit right in with the reputation. They have 3 games in 4 nights coming up. You can't "ride the hot hand" for all of them. What if Miller gets one of the starts and plays great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 If history is any guide, Marty will make the decision an easy one. He has a history of folding when someone is breathing down his neck. Someone who loves stats could have some fun by comparing Biron's numbers when his chief rival has been on the roster/in Rochester. Is it any coincidence Biron has shined with Miller out of the picture? It's not too melodramatic to say that this is THE defining moment in Biron's career. And an early defining moment for Miller. I would give Miller three or four straight starts as a slap in Biron's face, then see how Biron responds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj25 Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 People are worrying about what kind of message they would be sending miller by riding biron.. which indeed is a tough thing to do with millers hot start and olympic aspirations looming in the background, but on the same note what kind of message would giving miller a large chunk of time be sending marty who just got the 10 win record going and has been playing in my opinion just as good as miller was at the beginning of the season. I dont think there is a 'right' answer to the goalie situation, no matter how its handled someone will have something to complain about. I think time will tell if it was dealt with right.. no matter the exact decision that is made.. if it goes badly everyone will just use it as another means of pushing the ruff is bad with goalies theory, and if it goes good maybe he will get a little bit of credit. I think the goalie situation as it currently stands is very much a crap shoot, im just hoping that either way it works out well for the sabres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 People are worrying about what kind of message they would be sending miller by riding biron.. which indeed is a tough thing to do with millers hot start and olympic aspirations looming in the background, but on the same note what kind of message would giving miller a large chunk of time be sending marty who just got the 10 win record going and has been playing in my opinion just as good as miller was at the beginning of the season. I dont think there is a 'right' answer to the goalie situation, no matter how its handled someone will have something to complain about. I think time will tell if it was dealt with right.. no matter the exact decision that is made.. if it goes badly everyone will just use it as another means of pushing the ruff is bad with goalies theory, and if it goes good maybe he will get a little bit of credit. I think the goalie situation as it currently stands is very much a crap shoot, im just hoping that either way it works out well for the sabres. Nice post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeleslyobvious Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 People are worrying about what kind of message they would be sending miller by riding biron.. which indeed is a tough thing to do with millers hot start and olympic aspirations looming in the background, but on the same note what kind of message would giving miller a large chunk of time be sending marty who just got the 10 win record going and has been playing in my opinion just as good as miller was at the beginning of the season. I dont think there is a 'right' answer to the goalie situation, no matter how its handled someone will have something to complain about. I think time will tell if it was dealt with right.. no matter the exact decision that is made.. if it goes badly everyone will just use it as another means of pushing the ruff is bad with goalies theory, and if it goes good maybe he will get a little bit of credit. I think the goalie situation as it currently stands is very much a crap shoot, im just hoping that either way it works out well for the sabres. I agree that there is no right answer...Of course there's an answer that I think is right, but I doubt anyone who has a say in the decision is going to call and run it by me first. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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