HopefulFuture

I would have no choice but to support a law that was legally passed. I am a Constitutional firm supporter. That may appear as though I support such passage of said law, in point of fact, I do not. Law breakers are law breakers. I don't care if you've been here 25 years, if you entered the nation illegally, you need to be deported. As I keep pointing out GCOE, I do not live in a gray area, it is black and white, right and wrong for me. There are no conditions whereby this nation should subject it's citizens to allowing a law that is currently under the Constitution to be broken, past or present, unless that individual has asked for asylum. And in asylum cases the standards are cut and dry. As for children born in the United States, I submit they should not be given citizenship as well, since their parents were here illegally, but that they should be returned to their parents nation of origin. Now, I realize you will and more than several others will go in to an uproar over that comment, all I ask before you respond is to understand this, I do not live in a gray area world, it is black and white, right and wrong to me. If this nation is truly to be considered a nation of laws, then "ALL LAWS" must be adhered to. With that said, I am fully aware of the fire storm about to come my way, and I am more than fully prepared to defend my position.

I hold no loyalty nor do I even like the Republican party. You keep forgetting K-9, I wanted Bush and his henchmen tried for treason and hung from the tallest trees. I will never concede my loyalty to either of the 2 monopoly political parties in this nation simply because they are not pure, they are corrupt, from top to bottom. While I agree with your deduction on reasonable events to get things done, my view is not cynical. I am straight out saying that these 2 monopoly political parties are straight out corrupt and not worthy of the American electorates time. Furthermore, I will state that there is more than enough historical evidence combined with current day unfolding events with regards to the lack of true "national leadership" within each party to obtain what is needed in the nation today, and, to me in any event, that is a leader that can both assess past mistakes and begin to correct them on both the foreign and domestic fronts as well as a leader that recognizes real, tangible threats to the American way of life and take action by offering solutions that either the legislative supports, or, offers something while sitting at the table with the legislature. In either case, the past presidents I've witnessed in recent history, combined with the supposed leaders on the legislative side do not meet the parameters the American people, across the board, should expect in an existing governing body. Paying taxes does not make you a legal citizen. Entering the nation in a legal fashion, whereby citizenship is then offered to you through various legal methods under the current law is. The law does not, in point of fact, allow illegal aliens to swear an oath and all is better, that is not how it works, and you know better.

If you look closely at the deportation situation, it's not about the illegal's already here, it's about those that are continuing an effort to enter the nation illegally. As I said, let's be blunt here. Let's use an example to extrapolate a theory that has common sense behind it. So, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other administration in the history of the nation. What exactly is that number? And what are the numbers of projected illegal entry attempts? Also, what are the number of deportations for those that have been here long term illegally, since, I would suspect, that is where the staple of illegal activity via the vote occurs? As for the Democrats supporting it, sorry GCOE, but everything I have seen the Democratic party do up until this point in recent history, including the Bush years and before, says other wise. I don't believe for a moment the Democrats have any interest in protecting the vote as a US Citizen only institution. The party itself is actually pushing for voting rights for illegal's through amnesty. It is what is I'm afraid. As for the 60% decrease, I firmly believe the Republicans and Democrats, both parties, were involved in voting fraud. 60% is insignificant and cannot be relied upon as a number, since, admittedly, the GAO report itself says they have no true number on illegal voting activity. So remind me again where this imaginary 60% number comes from. As for the rigging the vote aspect, and I realize you would have preferred I tied the above and this subject together, but you can't honestly, but as for that rigging, there is overwhelming evidence based on fact that the Democrats overwhelmingly benefit from an amnesty policy as well as current illegal voting trends. So, are you telling me I shouldn't use common sense to make a reasonable deduction of the over all strategic situation?

It is every citizens responsibility to be fully vested in the most important of rights, that being the right to vote. I've stated before and I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, the Republic form of government we have only works if each and every citizen who is able is vested fully in the process. Other wise, the system begins to break down, and we've seen this in the 2 party monopoly that has formed over time.

I don't disagree. But amnesty for the sake of voter increase is not a legitimate reason, which, is the main reason it is happening in the current day, unlike the 86 model you portray as a possible reason. Edit: And I should also point out, it wasn't the Republicans who passed the Simpson-Mazzoli Act, it had bi-partisan support and was written and sponsored by one member each of the 2 party monopolies. Oh, and by the way, you mislead the reader ship on here when you state it was Republican. It was supported by both parties. There was an outcry in the late 70's/early 80's as the nation was going through a recession on jobs. Agro was one of the main stays of the Bill, as farmers sought alternative or cheaper labor initiatives. There is more to it than what you lead on in your initial response.

My apologies then 11. I will have further comment for you down in the GCOE response, and I'm sure both of you would appreciate the conversation, I do as well. But I have to draw a line somewhere is all, as a common sense individual, at some point, enough is enough with the excuses on the issue is all I am saying. Bare with me in my response to GCOE, who's opinion, as all of your opinions and views, I value. GCOE, I enjoy the conversations with you, very much so. As well as 11 and others. But the time has come to where I must state, in my opinion, enough is enough. You and I, and others, all know the truth of the situation. The Democrats are using an illegal method in an effort to garner votes in the electoral process. Let's not continue pretending this is not the case. Just as I have blasted Republican supporters on the mass murdering ways of G. Bush and his hench men, all in the name of the war on terror, I must also call out Democrats efforts to subvert the very right which makes this Republic a potentially great nation. I realize there are finite situations which require absolute and positive proof, but in the end, you, me, 11 and all the others who read each others responses ultimately realize that both parties in the 2 party monopoly are corrupt as can be as a whole. Maybe, and I stress maybe, not individual components of those parties, but the parties as an entire entity unto themselves. Let's cut through the chase here. 1 Illegal immigrants vote to succeed is to much. 1 citizens vote suppressed due to safe guards put in place to prevent illegals from voting is to much. I've given idea's, there is data to show that some of what I've said is A.) actually happening, and B.) can be addressed. We are speaking on the very essence of our nations existence. Let us not nit pick on the subject in so far as whether or not these wrong doings are a reality, for you and others, as well as myself, are fully aware they are happening. Instead, let us focus on what can be done in a larger strategy to both prevent our system from said corruption while at the same time keeping good faith with the citizens for whom the Constitution of the United States of America is intended. And this goes to you as well as others 11. There is a real pulse within myself for fairness, equality.................justice. In my view, and I am full aware I'm not always correct, but, in my view this nation must take care of it's own first and foremost. There is no gray area, as I've stated time and again. It's either black or white. In this case, illegal immigration, voting fraud and the ability of American Citizens to expect from their representatives an addressing of these issues, which have been proven by the way, is of the up most importance. Amnesty is not an option, and that is what the Democrats are proposing PJ. While I agree the Republicans aren't offering solutions that would 100% solve the issue, what the Democrats are offering is Amnesty for law breakers in an attempt to increase their voting base. That is unacceptable, to me, as an independent. Why should I, as a citizen, allow one of these 2 monopoly political parties to gain more strength in numbers by law breaking?

I'd be more than happy to apologize, if you, in point of fact, define what your intentions were with the statement you made. Understand 11, I will call a spade a spade when I see it.

This offends me deeply. You are advocating that illegal immigrants are not voting and that the fraud is non existent with statements like this, when in fact, the article, based on actual data collected, paints a completely different picture. GCOE, do you honestly find me to be an idiot? I have to ask because with statements like this, that is what I see you saying in effect. While this may very well be the case, I repeatedly stated in this thread that voter ID's are a layer of a tiered system of checks to keep illegal voting out of play. And I agree, a photo ID alone would not solve the issue, but, it did prevent 1/4 of those who attempted to vote out, so, it has proven itself capable of helping in the cause. Let's not try and twist the subject matter in to a "but Hopeful, you said voter photo ID's would solve everything" because quite frankly, by implying such, I'm calling you out as a liar.

Interesting Matrix. Only goes to further confirm my suspicions on the Democratic Party and the link to illegal activity that directly affects the single most important aspect of US citizens rights, the right to vote, to be unhindered from fraud.

Looks like Vogl's on board for the tank :)

While I can see he's upset, his posts are far from worse than what these murdering groups are doing. His posts are a reflection of his emotions given his and his families personal experience with terrorist activities whereby he/they had a direct target painted on their chests/heads, where ever. I think we can give him a pass for blowing off steam as we are now embroiled in a conflict his family has suffered through far longer than us. I listen to the elders in family speak about my great grandfather rooting for the Germans during world war 2, I never once heard either of my grand fathers who knew say that what he was doing by verbally expressing himself as worse than what a murderous group of henchmen did in Germany in that time period. With existing populations, no. How ever, you could replace the existing population with another and it most likely would succeed, as long as that population is pro democratic. But the current population in the Middle East are not, and not because they don't want to be for the most, the large masses just aren't privy enough to the experience, or in many cases, don't even comprehend what it truly is. Just like a majority of our population, a majority of theirs I'm sure gets their information about the western way of life mainly from televised outlets, either state run or another form.

I believe I stated pretty clearly in this thread pages ago that I have no problem with ID checks on gun purchases. I find the federal background checks to be unconstitutional as an unreasonable search, i.e. my background. The 2 are not inter connected and have no correlation other than a government ID card, and in the case of purchases, it's most likely a state issued ID card, not a federal one, although, I will concede that a US Military ID card is federal. I wasn't a military member as a non citizen, and I have no knowledge if their ID cards show them as non citizens or not LG, I'm just not sure. But I do know I've seen them used to purchase fire arms, at least, when I was in my early 20's.

I fully agree with you. But, there are ways to do it without inhibiting that constitutionally guaranteed right. Protecting the process, above all else, includes what you just stated. Until the border is secured and the massive amount of illegal immigrants here now are dealt with, this will be an ongoing issue. And as those illegals that are here are continued to be cuddled by a political party, the very real threat to the electoral process will also continue to exist. The Constitution is for citizens of the United States of America, it is not for those that come here illegally then hope to find sanctuary here. The electoral process may not be adversely affected to a point of national outrage yet, but the continued path of failing to act on the border situation puts ever more pressure on it as, I stated earlier, one of the 2 monopoly political parties continue efforts to utilize those law breaking individuals as a tool in said electoral process. In the mean time, measures must be taken to protect the rights, as you so pointed out, of legal us citizens. Individuals who cast off the notion that this not happening, or not happening on a scale to make an impact are failing to see the real dangers that lay ahead if it is not addressed accordingly. Case in point, Arizona, they are already running across issues of Mexican flags flying at public buildings inside the US. Loyalty to the Constitution and nation as a whole comes first. There are other examples I am sure, ones I haven't even heard of yet, but the most important is the right to vote, by legal citizens, without impedance of any kind from fraud.

The only problem I see with the Texas law is the SB-14 qualified ID to vote 2 dollar fee, that is a poll tax, as long as the ID is free it isn't a tax. Interestingly enough, the Supreme Court over ruled the lower courts decision on this case. As for your bolded, there absolutely should be no disenfranchisement. However, the process itself must be protected to the fullest extent capable. After all, will you concede a corrupted electoral process is, in affect, a disenfranchisement of legal US citizens? The GAO report is not speculation nor assumption, it's based on data.

Interesting family. You know what Pappa's favorite past time was :) He sure had a lot of kids..................

That is a good question, but if I remember correctly, and I'm not saying this as fact, just something I discussed once, they do have birth certificates and social security numbers. My step father owns land around Hume and down just outside of Cuba, he knows many of them, including one by the name of Mel who runs a small shop just southeast of Cuba, NY. I'll have him inquire to verify this weekend when he goes hunting, but Matt, good question. I'm leaving WNY for good Eleven, house is packed and I'm off to TN as a matter of fact, for permanent residence anyways. I'll still be traveling the country doing my thing but I've chosen the foothills up around the Smokey Mtn range as a place I'd like to live out my remaining years. Beautiful area, although, I won't be so deep in to the Mtn's as they are I'd be willing to bet I could get an answer on that from a friend of mine that turned me on to the area, he's still up in ND working, we are getting ready to join up again in Beaumont, I'll ask if he knows the answer to that one.

Ah yes, the literacy tests. Well, it is conceivable that it could get out of hand, then again that is why we should put competent people in positions of leadership that understand the functionality of a single law and have it worded accordingly. There are potential abuse of power issues with it GCOE, and you rightfully bring that up. I'm not advocating to do it blindly and with such a haste that it leaves those loopholes of abuse open, I'm merely stating that is should be done to nip it in the bud before it does get out of hand. But, over all, good post man and this why I so enjoy the conversations, there are some very valid points to be made, and, perhaps we can find a reasonable solution to those subjects we discuss. To LG: Have you ever tried to purchase a fire arm? I'll tell you what, I own a .45 caliber hand gun, a 12 gauge shot gun, a muzzle loader, a 30.06 rifle and a Winchester repeater. In each purchase, I had to show photo ID. My hand gun I purchased at Cabella's in Utah, one of the 2 most liberal gun states in the nation, and I still had to show photo ID. Oh, and did I mention, in each purchase except the muzzle loader, which is considered an antique weapon, I had to submit to and pass a background check, even in Utah. Although I find them unconstitutional since it submits myself to unreasonable searches, aka, my background, I didn't kick and fuss about it while purchasing the weapons. I submit to the background check every job I go on, since I'm dealing with energy, and that is considered a national security situation believe it or not. That should answer your question on whether or not I believe background checks should be done. Another good point. So, are you stating clearly and unequivocally that there are known cases whereby natural born US citizens do not have their citizenship because their parents did not submit the appropriate documentation for legal citizenship? And if so, you of course have the adjoining case studies from the courts in such incidents, correct?

Actually Eleven, one of my children was born here, at Sisters Hospital, the other was born at MUSC, Charleston, SC. In both cases it was the hospital's that brought the paper work directly to us, it was not we, the parents, who had to go to them. That's 2 states, NY and SC, and both had identical policies on that documentation package submission. As a matter of fact, MUSC wouldn't let my wife and the baby leave without it being filled out. It's also a record for them. As I said, this is a non issue.

Once again, your nit picking here, my statement on issuance at birth was a condensing of the process. If we are to have serious discussion here, and you expect me to detail every cog of the wheel, then so be it, prepare to have my posts expanded ten fold, and many of them are long enough already.

I've never had an issue submitting to background checks of any kind. As a matter of fact, while I sit in my now packed up home in North Tonawanda, I'm waiting for a Federal background check to clear so I can go to work in Beaumont, TX, at the refineries. The issue I will have with that background check when it comes to fire arms is the fact that a governing body can keep a list of those whom own those fire arms and it exposes the potential for abuse in the order of confiscation of those fire arms with out due process. This comes back to the integrity and principal discussion. If we, the citizens, didn't put morons in office who love to abuse their powers once there, or attempt to accumulate or centralize more power in a single position, no one would have a problem with back ground checks accept the criminal element of society, but that's not the current day scenario here in America now is it. I'm fully aware of how the process works Eleven. And yes, it is the parents who initiate and see it through for you while your screaming because that silver pan is cold, or, you could be sleeping in that very pan :) This is a non issue to me, it's a given we should all understand how the process actually works. I have a 24 and 21 year old myself, I remember the process by which I got both their birth certificates and their social security numbers and cards.

Really? So your telling me the original 1970 birth certificate I have from DeGraff Memorial Hospital wasn't used to get my original 1970 issued social security card?

I don't want to put voter ID fraud in the same category, never stated such. But, the vote is the single most important device citizens have in this nation. Are you denying that? And as for your comments on surveillance state, militarizing the police and issues of this nature, you'll not find a greater ally than myself when it comes to your concerns on those issues as well. But with the vote, the citizens have the ability to change or alter the course of direction for those subjects, do you deny that as well?

You will need your social security card and your birth certificate, both are issued to you at birth. That's where it all starts. As for the fraudulent documents statement, if it was so easy to get them, you would see many more illegals addressed as legal citizens. It's not as easy as you think. I know first hand as I have worked in the field with illegals using social security numbers of other people. Once known to me, they aren't on the job after that, because I won't tolerate it. It's every citizens responsibility to ensure the system is protected as well as the governments.

Why? I've already stated in previous posts, in this very thread, that photo ID cards should be given, without cost, to those that cannot afford them via a threshold set similar to the one set by what is known as the United States Dept. of Health and Human Services "self support reserve". So, with that being the case, explain to me again how my stance on the issue is one with a flaw? It's more than obvious the flow of illegals is not going to be stopped at the border, and I don't give a dam about the excuse Democrats benefit from it. If Republicans were so dam concerned, then they should have addressed it while they had an administration in the executive office, they didn't. The border is where the problem all stems from, it's not secure. Both parties haven't addressed it, it's become a red herring for one to attack another. However, with that being said, and it's more than obvious fact the border is porous and it's also obvious, by the very 05 GAO report, that the issue needs to be addressed one way or the other given it's the electoral process which is affected, even if minutely. Nip this in the bud before it does get out of hand. And that starts with common sense policies. Photo Voter ID cards, with mechanism's built in to provide for all to off set the current illegal's here already, and shut down the dam border, get troops up on it, build a wall, whatever it takes. This isn't a game, at least not to me, this comes down to the very core of what this Republic is and the ability of this Republic to protect that asset which is the only line of defense legal US citizens have from complete tyranny.

I'm not stating the fraud is actually impacting outcomes on the elections, I'm merely saying it exists. And what is the threshold for us legal citizens to finally attempt to put an end to it? Is it only after it grows to such a problem that we put an end to it, or shouldn't we be putting mechanism's in place in a preventative measure to protect the only bastion legal citizens have against true tyranny?