nfreeman

Pittsburgh didn't tank to get Crosby. They won a lottery following a year in which the NHL did not play. And I love the optimism, but comparing Reino to Toews is insane.

Well, by that logic, McD isn't elite either since Edmonton is in the crapper again this year. The players I listed in the 1st category may not be as good as Crosby, but all are great players who all popped loose onto the trade market within the past few years. The point is that you don't need to tank to land a player who was drafted high. You can often trade for them (or, less often, find them in FA -- e.g. Tavares). Do you not think it was hugely lucky of Pittsburgh to win the Crosby lottery -- following a lockout year -- when they had just won Malkin and Fleury? Do you think it is logical to plan on replicating that success? If so, do you think Reino and Eichel are comparable to Malkin and Crosby?

Recently: PK Subban (and Shea Weber, for that matter, although YMMV on including him). Taylor Hall Ryan Johanssen Phil Kessel Tyler Seguin Down a level but still quite good: Matt Duchene Dougie Hamilton Evander Kane Filip Forsberg Ryan Callahan Milan Lucic Kyle Turris Eric Johnson Kevin Shattenkirk Keith Yandle Again -- they didn't tank to get him. Nashville fell apart for one year when Rinne got hurt. Yes -- luck is needed too. But hoping for a miraculous Crosby-Malkin or Toews-Kane-Keith lucky stretch isn't a plan.

Right but Nashville didn't have to tank to get them. That is my point as stated above.

Marleau was drafted in 1997. Thornton was a trade acquisition, as you pointed out. The point is that good to elite players pop loose regularly on the trade market, and well-run teams will pick them up if it makes sense to do so.

I think that was the year that Rinne was hurt though, right? That Forsberg trade is exactly the kind of smart move that good teams make to build to incrementally improve.

SJ's highest pick since 2003 was #8 in 2005 (Setoguchi). And yes, I do want a team like SJ or Nashville -- one that is smartly put together, is in the hunt every year and, to get where they are, never had to endure a generation in the wilderness like the Sabres have inflicted on their fans. And I realize that Nashville lost to Pittsburgh last year. But that does NOT mean that hoping for a miracle Malkin-Crosby run in the lottery is a smart way to build a team. It just means that Pittsburgh won the once-in-50-years powerball.

Hmmm. You think he broke bad just to have enough cash to impress his GF? I suppose it's possible, but IMHO anyone who would break bad for that reason would do so for any of a million other reasons that might present themselves.

Exactly, and the choice is not between "tanking to win a cup" and "losing in the 1st round every year." That is a silly straw man. The point is that if you are good enough to get to the 1st round and perhaps win a round every year -- which the Sabres were, 1.5 seasons before commencing the tank -- you are MUCH closer to cup contention than you are if you tank. So if you find yourself in that situation, you don't panic and burn it to the ground in the hopes of winning the powerball lottery. You incrementally build and improve your team every year so that you can get to the level that, say, Nashville or SJ (2 teams that didn't tank) are in -- i.e. legit final 4 teams with legit SCF chances, every GD year -- and where regular-season home games are sold out and rocking good times. And if you don't have the right GM to implement that plan -- which DR wasn't -- you find someone who is.

Bring in a better GM, who would do a better job in drafting prospects, bringing in FAs, trading and hiring coaches. Keep the team in the playoffs, or at least in playoff contention, and incrementally add quality players -- who are much more interested in joining a decent team than a DFL one -- via trade and FA. Above all, do NOT panic and put all your eggs in a basket that requires a highly unlikely scenario to unfold in order to escape the basement. Because once you're in the loserville quicksand, it's really GD hard to escape it, which is why it usually doesn't happen -- and that's when your team becomes NHL Siberia, your franchise player mails it in half the time, your young players learn bad habits and your home games turn into half-empty, boring shows of discontent.

Sorry swamp. Hang in there. We are pulling for you and your family.

This.

That just happened.

I don’t see how anyone can think this. The point of the tank, as Flagg notes, was not just to get Eichel. It was to get the team to cup contender status— because drafting a superstar was thought by some to be a prerequisite for achieving that status. Of course, the reason many of us correctly opposed the tank is that it almost always fails to result in cup contender status.

I think 2 winter olympics ago, his coach openly slammed him in the media. I don’t remember the exact quotes, but it had to do with attitude, work ethic, etc. The trade deadline acquisition point is not responsive to my point or relevant to the question of whether the Sabres should bring him in. You are right that we can’t know what he’s been offered or what his priorities have been. But do you not think if one of his teams wanted to keep him, it would’ve happened by now? Or that if someone offered him a good multi-year deal, he would’ve taken it? He’s become a vagabond.

I'll ask both of you the same question I asked Liger, which he ducked: if they are bottom-5 again next year, will you think the tank was a bad move? If not, what if they are bottom-5 again the following year?

The GDT is not supposed to launch until after midnight. Now Casey's career is cursed.

Well, grizzled vets who are good players and who set good examples for da kids are IMHO a precious and desirable element, especially for a young team looking to muscle its way out of the basement. But they need to be Drurys, not Moulsons or Gorgeses, in order for it to work.

Starting to get interesting...

Good stuff here boys.

What bias? The facts speak for themselves. No one has given him more than a 1-year deal, and no one that has had him at the end of a contract has given him an extension.

That would be a fair bet, but I think it’s fair to say that the NHL has concluded that he presents other issues.

How good do we think he is? Better than Larsson? Faster than Larsson?

There’s a reason that no team that signs Vanek to one of his one-year deals wants to keep him.

Not sure what the point of the snark here is, but the relevant point in the context of the discussion upthread is the comparison of Casey's 1st 2 NHL seasons with Vesey's 1st 2 NHL seasons -- so their production in the year before joining the NHL is also relevant -- and Vesey's was far superior to Casey's. But if you want to jam your fingers into your ears, jump up and down and yell that Casey is better than Vesey and that Eichel is better than McD -- enjoy. Separately: Kris Baker of Sabresprospects.com was on with Schopp today and said, unhesitatingly, that Casey would be an impact NHL player right away and that he does not expect Casey to play in Rochester next year. So that was kinda exciting.