Baker & Fairburn pod: The time has come

[Taro T]

11 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think he slid because he's small and teams didn't think he would have the same effectiveness playing against the big boys. 

And there is not one single smidge of reason to beieve the Sabres wouldn't have been another team passing on him because he was small without superior skating had they not had their development people and scouts seeing him every game and many practices and talking to him regularly and getting to know him because they were all there watching, monitoring, and helping Savoie's progress.

Yes, he would've been "on their radar" in that they'd know who he was and what his stats were; he would not have been "on their radar" in that they'd almost definitely have at least 4 other guys they'd rather pick with that selection who were still on the board had they not known him better than every other NHL team (with the possible exception of Winnipeg, who didn't pick before them) knew him.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

And there is not one single smidge of reason to beieve the Sabres wouldn't have been another team passing on him because he was small without superior skating had they not had their development people and scouts seeing him every game and many practices and talking to him regularly and getting to know him because they were all there watching, monitoring, and helping Savoie's progress.

Yes, he would've been "on their radar" in that they'd know who he was and what his stats were; he would not have been "on their radar" in that they'd almost definitely have at least 4 other guys they'd rather pick with that selection who were still on the board had they not known him better than every other NHL team (with the possible exception of Winnipeg, who didn't pick before them) knew him.

I don't know what this means because every team makes their list of BPA and he would have been ranked as such on everybody's list. When the time comes teams deviate from that when they have guys who value size or grit or something they specifically want on their staff. 

I am sure Sabres had him ranked around 5 or 6 like many of the scouting people on the internet. They likely had another guy expected at their spot but when he fell they couldn't resist. It seems simple to me. 

If Östlund and Rosen become something I think you can say their drafting has been decent. Good even. Far from perfect, but good all the same. I'd have to look over every year's lists to see who they missed on (if anybody). 

I would rather have Beniers then Power at the moment but I can't fault them. I got that wrong too. I haven't given up on Power totally but I thought he would be better. He still just seems like a guy who doesn't care about hockey at all. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't know what this means because every team makes their list of BPA and he would have been ranked as such on everybody's list. When the time comes teams deviate from that when they have guys who value size or grit or something they specifically want on their staff. 

I am sure Sabres had him ranked around 5 or 6 like many of the scouting people on the internet. They likely had another guy expected at their spot but when he fell they couldn't resist. It seems simple to me. 

If Östlund and Rosen become something I think you can say their drafting has been decent. Good even. Far from perfect, but good all the same. I'd have to look over every year's lists to see who they missed on (if anybody). 

I would rather have Beniers then Power at the moment but I can't fault them. I got that wrong too. I haven't given up on Power totally but I thought he would be better. He still just seems like a guy who doesn't care about hockey at all. 

It means, if they hadn't had significantly more exposure to Benson because of their relationship with Savoie, they wouldn't have drafted Benson.  They'd've followed the same logic the teams before them used to convince themselves that though he was incredible in Junior his lack of worldclass skating would, when combined with his lack of size, keep him from having the sort of success you hope for in a pick taken towards the top of the draft.

For once, luck was on the Sabres side, and they'd lucked into him being a teammate of their previous year's #1 pick, so they got a much better look at him than others did and they knew (or had a great expectation) that the intangibles he brings would outweigh the issue of being short without all-world skating.  It's OK and it's actually a good thing. 

They may have lucked out with Ellis being available right when UPL was broken and Georgiev was proving he's no longer an NHLer too.  If UPL hadn't injured himself in the off-season, there's no way Ellis is a Sabre today.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

It means, if they hadn't had significantly more exposure to Benson because of their relationship with Savoie, they wouldn't have drafted Benson.  They'd've followed the same logic the teams before them used to convince themselves that though he was incredible in Junior his lack of worldclass skating would, when combined with his lack of size, keep him from having the sort of success you hope for in a pick taken towards the top of the draft.

For once, luck was on the Sabres side, and they'd lucked into him being a teammate of their previous year's #1 pick, so they got a much better look at him than others did and they knew (or had a great expectation) that the intangibles he brings would outweigh the issue of being short without all-world skating.  It's OK and it's actually a good thing. 

They may have lucked out with Ellis being available right when UPL was broken and Georgiev was proving he's no longer an NHLer too.  If UPL hadn't injured himself in the off-season, there's no way Ellis is a Sabre today.

Well yes, I think they were lucky in both cases. I don't think watching Savoie mattered though. I think that's just your conjecture. Sabres do not have a size bias like some teams (eg. Philly). 

Adams should have known their were goaltenders going to be waived. DiPietro was another candidate if not Ellis. The question now is what is he doing and why isn't he doing it? Decide already. If he's set on UPL then trade Lyon. Can't see Edmonton not taking a shot at him. Just make a decision. What is Adams doing anyway? Just lunching and golfing with Staal (who does what as well?)?

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

This reply makes 0 sense. 

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

It means, if they hadn't had significantly more exposure to Benson because of their relationship with Savoie, they wouldn't have drafted Benson.  They'd've followed the same logic the teams before them used to convince themselves that though he was incredible in Junior his lack of worldclass skating would, when combined with his lack of size, keep him from having the sort of success you hope for in a pick taken towards the top of the draft.

For once, luck was on the Sabres side, and they'd lucked into him being a teammate of their previous year's #1 pick, so they got a much better look at him than others did and they knew (or had a great expectation) that the intangibles he brings would outweigh the issue of being short without all-world skating.  It's OK and it's actually a good thing. 

They may have lucked out with Ellis being available right when UPL was broken and Georgiev was proving he's no longer an NHLer too.  If UPL hadn't injured himself in the off-season, there's no way Ellis is a Sabre today.

I don't agree. Analytics showed there were high end underlying numbers for Benson. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well yes, I think they were lucky in both cases. I don't think watching Savoie mattered though. I think that's just your conjecture. Sabres do not have a size bias like some teams (eg. Philly). 

Adams should have known their were goaltenders going to be waived. DiPietro was another candidate if not Ellis. The question now is what is he doing and why isn't he doing it? Decide already. If he's set on UPL then trade Lyon. Can't see Edmonton not taking a shot at him. Just make a decision. What is Adams doing anyway? Just lunching and golfing with Staal (who does what as well?)?

No, they don't have a size bias.  That is beyond obvious.  BUT except for Benson, they have a HUGE speed bias when it comes to smallish/undersized players.  Heck, they have a bit of a speed bias for larger guys too typically.

Have a very hard time believing if they didn't have the inside track on getting to know Benson before drafting him that they would've been willing to step outside that bias for speed when he was on the board.

I really doesn't matter either way; they DID draft him.  But again, expect that without having drafted Savoie, Benson wouldn't have been that high on their draft board.  The reaches they make are almost always burners.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This reply makes 0 sense. 

I don't agree. Analytics showed there were high end underlying numbers for Benson. 

And you of all people, the guy that nearly constantly rails about how the Sabres don't follow analytics anywhere nearly often enough, often with  more than adequate cause; are now going to argue that had Savoie been playing in the Q, or anywhere that his path wouldn't have crossed Benson's, that the Sabres still would've taken Benson when they did?

Will have to agree to disagree.  Expect they don't put nearly enough weight on analytics to have been willing to overlook the size/speed (or more specifically the combined lack of each) when he was on the board and they were on the clock if they didn't already know him intimately.