Thorny
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Posts posted by Thorny
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14 hours ago, dudacek said:
it's pretty thoroughly acknowledged that Adams went to Florida during the 18-game skid with his "plan to fix this" and Terry signed off
Even putting aside the Jack argument, at that time Ullmark, Reinhart, Montour, Ristolainen, McCabe and Hall — nearly every established vet on the team — were free agents who were not planning on re-signing.
And this was a team in the midst of an historically bad season, on the heels of 3 consecutive years of considerably worse hockey than what we just watched, with what virtually everyone seemed to agree was a toxic culture and locker room.
You can debate what form the rebuild needed to take, but I can't imagine circumstances where one was was more warranted than the Sabres in the spring of 2021 (edited)
As for the bold, I think my initial post covers my thoughts.
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Of course Adams was, at the very least, complicit in that first year and takes some of the blame. My point remains, and, if anything, your post kinda adds to it: if Adams had a rebuild plan in the summer of 2020 and was talked out of/not allowed to execute it by Pegula, Krueger, Eichel or others, and instead simply carried out someone else's plan, how much of a real GM was he?
To your ending question: I suppose we’ll never know, as apparently all Adams is next year, too, is a combination of Pegula’s budget constraints and Lindy Ruff’s reshaping of the roster
I cannot agree with much of any of the framing of your post relative to the extent of the “rebuild” we needed to undertake. What we’ve gotten is so far off the map in terms of futility that I’ve only become more certain over time an attempt to turn over into a playoff contender with immediacy was the correct course of action to take. I absolutely do not agree we needed a “rebuild” in 2021 the way you use the term. Jack and Sam didn’t need to be traded (and you utter revisionism on Ullmark need not apply. We could have signed him)
Jack was a Sabre. Adams said he wanted to rebuild. Jack said ok trade me. Team said ok we’ll give winning a shot. Team barely gave it the old college try over an anomalific 40 game COVID season and then threw their hands up on the air and said “we are inept and can’t do it, we are going back to the rebuild plan” and Eichel was gonzo behind the guise of the injury
Adams Kruger and Pegula being terrible in 2021 didn’t prove to me I wanted Adams undertaking an even longer, riskier, rebuild encompassing more of my years on this earth. Absolutely the opposite lol. 2021 didn’t prove *anything*, I cannot stress this enough. We already knew the team needed to be fixed: it did not represent any sort of evidence that a quicker fix would not have been more apropos (like how the majority of the rest of the league does it), it just illustrated that those in charge failed, and that the season was ripe with Covid related anomalies
the “long form” rebuild has failed significantly more throughly and for a much longer period of time and we are still going at it
you said it yourself: Adams views this year as a “blip”. An 82 game failure. The covid season was much less convincing. Why couldn’t that be a blip?
We know the answer, and it’s the initial instigating issue: we ALWAYS knew it - Adams bias is the long form build. It’s what he wanted when he first took over and he was always going to find a way to get it there
So no, I know we agree on the timeline to success now, that last year was a failure on expectations and the deadline for playoffs is this coming season: but I can’t agree and will never agree the plan made sense upon conception. I’ve always stuck with my opinion that it’s been a failure of execution, yes, but also conception. I hated it from “go””, I thought it was an awful idea relative to where the franchise and fanbase was (this has borne out accurate) and, again speaking for myself, the last 4 years have have been orders of magnitude beyond the previous 3 before that in terms of a horrid product to follow
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Kevyn Adams “go for it” try with Jack Eichel encompassed all of *21 games*. I think people forget this. That’s not a reasonable sample size. It’s not even a sample size. I do not believe there’s a more salient point to be made in this discussion
Also, I don’t know what you are getting at with your “3 years of considerably worse hockey.” 19-20 our total was a prorated 81 points. So, we needed to undertake a 5 year plan to get to, checks notes…84 points. What are we even doing here
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4 hours ago, dudacek said:
I'm familiar with the quote in question. Don't buy what this implies.
The entire nightmare that was the 20/21 season was specifically in response to an unhappy Jack wanting to win now or leave, and Krueger convincing Pegula they could.
Adams launched his rebuild (and became the actual GM in the process) after that failed.
Jack ultimately demanded a trade because of the organization's failures, yes. But this was hardly a case of him being a good soldier patiently waiting until Adams unnecessarily forced him out.
He had made his unhappiness well-known long before Adams was hired. Adams decision to rebuild came during what was probably the worst stretch of hockey in franchise history.
We did have to rebuild whether Jack wanted out or not. And the evidence suggests to me he wanted out regardless.
I see his 'Because Adams wanted to rebuild' as convenience as much as truth.
No I disagree. From what I’ve heard, Adams plan to rebuild was initially going to be put into place before Eichel ever made a request, it’s indeed what spawned the request - which led to the “college try”’ 2021. I absolutely disagree that Covid year ripe with anomalies (including a hurt Jack for most of it, and a bogus Hall, and a Krueger as a result of a duped Adams and Pegula), represents *CLOSE* to a reasonable sample size of evidence a massive rebuild was necessary - a rebuild that takes 5 years to make the playoffs is NEVER necessary - but even a long form rebuild - absolutely disagree
it’s why I keep saying if Adams gets canned a new GM need not elect to institute a long form plan. I do not believe it was necessary when Adams took over. Reinhart specially said he was open to a contract - according to popular opinion we bridged him due to Covid, but that certainly was a choice and didn’t need to be the case
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We are also taking the *actual GM* thing way too far. It’s ok to score an argument point on a message board and for us all to agree the true rebuild started a year later, but Adams WAS the actual GM in 2021 lol. We’ve cemented the narrative so hard it’s like we are literally saying we can’t analyze his work that year: which would be absurd. We can agree not to “count” it for the sake of arguments but I think you are conflating it with the reality: he was still partially responsible for the construction of that win now team as well: so some of its blame falls to him
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8 minutes ago, Taro T said:
And some of the plan was downright bizarre. Pretty sure Patrick Kane was the plan's replacement for the injured Quinn even though both were on the same timeline more or less to become available. The Sabres being so futile the 1st 2-3 months of the season is a big part of why Kane chose Detroit over Buffalo.
But, had Adams made a move to actually replace Quinn, the team might've been good enough to cause Kane to sign up and then he'd've been essentially bringing in 3 "middle 6" or maybe even 2nd line W's that the team ended up as it all played out not having on day 1.
Wonder if that "top 9" winger that Adams is planning on chasing is still Patrick Kane and bringing in Ruff is part of making that a reality?
Kane being the replacement seems less absurd if you think about how Adams was probably, in his mind, debating whether it was worth making a move sooner to replace Quinn to finish second in the Atlantic rather than third.
He *can’t* be so utterly nonchalant about playoffs to the extent he’d pass on a replacement (YES he could have done something) if he thought we’d be hit-miss on WC2. I just can’t believe he would be. Adams definitely thought we’d be better off keeping whatever trade asset dry in the case the injury ended up more less irrelevant to our high powered offence to use on a deadline deal for a superfluous but beneficial add
a costly mistake
@DarthEbriate his overconfidence was his weakness
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6 minutes ago, dudacek said:
I'm going to add that Adams has not wavered in his trust in the process.
He views last year as a stumble, not proof of failure.
He's told us what he's going to do: target areas of improvement: Ruff, Appert, Byram, (and, promised at least) harder-to-play-against style, middle and/or bottom 6 forward additions, and better PP, while maintaining his faith in the core he's built.
He's climbed his hill and planted his flag. Next season is win or die.
Live look at Kevyn Adams as fans watch on from a helicopter
Or is THIS a live look?
We’ll have to wait until next season to find out
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2 hours ago, tom webster said:
This where I’m at. However, I do think he has earned the right to correct it and learn from it, which know us not a popular sentiment.
Absolutely. One mulligan is fair
its all about playoffs in ‘25 now
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2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:
Okposo's observation that there was something amiss with the Sabres as early as October, November is one that any of us could have made (and, indeed, did make).
What rankles me anew is how this same player, Okposo, led (or at least approved (which, as captain, is leading)) the no-salute policy when the fans were chanting "fire Donny" in mid-December.
Those fans (just a segment of them, btw) were reacting to the same sh1t that Okposo says he perceived in October/November. But his response to the fans' chants of unrest was still "yeah, f**k them fans."
He seems like a nice guy. Please never come back. Not even for a Bills game or wings at Elmo's.
It’s pretty much like in that Big Bang Theory episode (or, see also: real life) where they are sitting around making fun of phantom menace and Penny chimes in and Raj says “we can make fun of it. You can’t”.
WE aren’t really part of this. WE don’t really know what we’re talking about.
It was just another sad indicator of the disconnect between this regime/its players and the fan base (and probably why hiring Lindy was so important)
They have no interest in claiming actual Sabres identity. Maybe we don’t have one. But if we don’t, our identity is definitely failure to make the playoffs for 13 years: which is the exact identity Adams goes out of his way to distance himself from, like with Seravali recently
Even the long form plan they took was with full knowledge of and I’d argue disregard for the position the fans are in, of no playoffs: there was zero urgency to claim that and fix that: they are doing their own thing
it’s been hard for me. I see the crest, but since Adams took over the team has been unfamiliar. And they’ve done it by choice
for the record, I get WHY. It is difficult though. Ideally you’d think there’d be a middle ground - we haven’t seen it but Ruff is a sign it might be now here
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3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:
Adams and Granato are to blame. They did nothing, nothing.
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58 minutes ago, seer775 said:
To quote former Sabres Captain Ryan O'Reilly:
"I lost my love of the game in Buffalo".
Former Captain Jack Eichel:
"Vegas made so much sense to me. They want to win every year".
And recent former Captain Kyle Okposo:
"We knew we were screwed in the beginning".
The Buffalo Sabres are a team where top talent is drafted, then paid to leave.
I don’t even think it’s some nefarious thing, liger is right they take on the mindset of the organization, but they more less imbibe it: the top-down refusal to measure results in the now becomes part of a fabric of their developing identity
Some recognize it and ask out
Don’t forget that Jack specifically said on record he asked to be dealt *because* Adams wanted to rebuild. We didn’t have to rebuild because Jack wanted out
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22 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:
Feels like many players likely felt it was doomed from the start and felt it was an inevitability they’d miss
Such an odd vibe. Not what I expected from the group at all honestly, and I’ve had my beefs obviously. So much we are hearing is just so weird.
Tuch’s comments *during the season*/playoff push on a podcast that “we are young, we’ll eventually get there.” Why? Why throw the towel in verbally when you are still in it
EDIT - just realized there’s a thread for this specific discussion already, my mistake
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Big part of the reason season was so disappointing is again alluded to here by KO.
The bit specifically about how they “knew” in *OCTOBER* things weren’t right.
So if they knew so soon things weren’t right, and they knew the locker room was feeling entitled (KA’s press conference), how did it get to a situation it went south so fast? If it was imminently obvious that quickly, presumably it was discoverable or even obvious before the season started? Why did the GM allow the situation to exist, and the fester for so long?
At this point the discussion on the failure of this season is sort of getting redundant, what matters now is the coming season: it’s just disheartening we keep getting forced to come back to the analysis cause we keep getting more hard-line confirmation they really were lost right out of the gate
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On 5/10/2024 at 10:06 AM, dudacek said:
Isn't the Silayev thing %100 'those tools, he could be Chara'?
Chara or Logan Stanley
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It’s annoying when literally any of the teams left win
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2 minutes ago, dudacek said:
Regardless of anyone’s personal feelings about him, Seth Appert is eminently qualified to be an NHL assistant coach.
The pushback is partly about his fit for this particular role, partly about the “new” staff as a whole, and mostly about the perpetuation of fears about organizational stereotypes.
It’s because everything is happening according to a clear plan. Sounds funny, but if you think about it.
People are weary of his plans so in an odd way a longer process for these things with less certainty would psychology reflect better
Adams is deliberate, it’s been to a fault, we’ll see which way the cookie crumbles next year
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2 minutes ago, Taro T said:
When's the last time a coach with Ruff's resume only got a 2 year deal to come to a new team?
Haven't seen it stated openly anywhere, but expect the 2 year timeline was Ruff's decision. Ruff works as HC until he's 66 and then either becomes the PoHO or an advisor to the GM/newly promoted PoHO depending upon how well those 2 years worked out.
There’s not much sense looking beyond this year anyways tbh. We are either in the playoffs and we wanna keep everyone, or we miss and Adams likely gets fired and we have no idea what happens with anyone
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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:
Yea, this was all planned. There was no search for ***** and Ruff was told that he was hiring Appert. Appert wanted his video coach.
But we’ve got the succession plan all mapped out. We are a well run franchise.
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3 hours ago, Brawndo said:
As Liger mentioned-Appert takes over in two seasons
Why would they have this already mapped out? They are assuming failure? Are they assuming success? If Ruff is good, wouldn’t you keep him? Did Ruff say he only wanted 2 years?
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Bruins on the ropes
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10 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:
I'll agree to disagree and 13 seasons of no playoffs is absolutely insane considering half the teams make it. I don't know what more we needed to see from Murray, Botteril and now Adams but I guess some still believe in him apparantly.
He’s hit the 2 coaches mark and he’s hitting 5 years this year. Especially cause you’d expect to fall on the below average side of things considering the severely below average performance, nonetheless we reach his likely endpoint if we miss this coming season
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Just now, ... said:
What happened to playoff beards?
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6 minutes ago, French Collection said:
I have been a part of this 13 year drought but I accept no responsibility.
you know what they say about responsibility
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Just now, SwampD said:
Not really sure what Adams’ mindset when taking the job has to do with anything. Not even really sure what you are arguing, now that I think of it. I haven’t really disagreed with anything you’ve written.
Wuh?
what he said.
Ugh.
I’m not arguing against you I’m arguing with you
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Than the next closest ALL TIME
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Just now, PerreaultForever said:
Could easily be. I may have said something similar back then. It does often feel like we are going in circles and things repeat. The names change, the results don't.
I’m of the opinion we undersell this stuff due to the nature of the news cycle and our media and the scroll culture and just an overload of content. We see a tweet that shows where the sabres sit in the record books and we “ha ha” but forget about the specifics cause “ya I know we suck I’ve heard it a million times.”
they have the longest playoff drought of *all time*. Just think about it for a bit. No one has been that bad, ever. In centuries. Multitudes of teams. It’s us: we are it. Hyperbole cannot and need not apply, ever
we are extraordinary
1 minute ago, Thorny said:I’m of the opinion we undersell this stuff due to the nature of the news cycle and our media and the scroll culture and just an overload of content. We see a tweet that shows where the sabres sit in the record books and we “ha ha” but forget about the specifics cause “ya I know we suck I’ve heard it a million times.”
they have the longest playoff drought of *all time*. Just think about it for a bit. No one has been that bad, ever. In centuries. Multitudes of teams. It’s us: we are it. Hyperbole cannot and need not apply, ever
we are extraordinary
Our longest all time drought is THIRTY PERCENT longer than the next closest
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Just now, PerreaultForever said:
Making the playoffs isn't hard? Well if that's true then I guess the Sabres aren't just a sh*tshow, they are a colossal sh%tshow.
Is this post from 2019?
What page are you on? Spoiler, the drought is still going. We left colossal shite show in the rear view several hundred miles ago
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KO knew very early we didn’t have it - something was missing
in The Aud Club
Posted · Edited by Thorny
This is part of why I scoff at the “Pegula is handcuffing him with spending” type stuff. Adams more less is Pegula: what qualifications did he have otherwise? He was appointed to “find out what was wrong” when (rather laughably) unqualified to do so and then charged with fixing it. His only qualification could have been utter trust from ownership and with no qualifications to inspire said trust the only thing it could have been is an agreement between the two of what they were after, Adams being lockstep with what Terry wanted: Adams put this plan in place because he believe in it. That’s up to and including the refusal to spend very much