All Activity

I agree... it does slant the league but its an excuse do better adapt overcome the competent teams do ... the problem is we dont have competence. If we did it wouldn't be a problem. It's like players some have more talent than others... you can wah wah or you can work harder... life isn't created equal so figure out how to equalize it or go away

But that is only one second line winger per team, presumably the highest scoring second line wing? Add in that Meier and Conner likely outscored at least one wing on the first line of their respective teams and I find this data less than compelling. I am not say I don't agree that Benson's point production is borderline for a playoff team's second line, I just think your data is incomplete.

Here’s a breakdown of the regular-season point production for second-line wingers on NHL playoff teams from the 2022–2023 season: 🏒 2022–2023 NHL Playoff Teams: Second-Line Wingers' Regular Season Points Team Player Position GP G A PTS PPG New York Rangers Alexis Lafrenière LW 82 28 29 57 0.70 New Jersey Devils Timo Meier RW 82 40 46 86 1.05 Carolina Hurricanes Seth Jarvis RW 82 21 38 59 0.72 Toronto Maple Leafs Michael Bunting LW 82 23 26 49 0.60 Minnesota Wild Matt Boldy LW 82 31 32 63 0.77 Colorado Avalanche Artturi Lehkonen LW 82 19 29 48 0.59 Dallas Stars Mason Marchment LW 81 17 30 47 0.58 Vegas Golden Knights Jonathan Marchessault LW 82 28 36 64 0.78 Los Angeles Kings Kevin Fiala LW 82 23 28 51 0.62 Boston Bruins Jake DeBrusk LW 82 27 23 50 0.61 Tampa Bay Lightning Brandon Hagel LW 82 30 34 64 0.78 Florida Panthers Carter Verhaeghe LW 82 42 31 73 0.89 Edmonton Oilers Zach Hyman LW 82 36 34 70 0.85 Seattle Kraken Jared McCann LW 79 40 30 70 0.89 New York Islanders Anders Lee LW 82 28 23 51 0.62 Winnipeg Jets Kyle Connor LW 82 31 49 80 0 📊 Observations Point Production Range: Second-line wingers on playoff teams typically recorded between 49 and 86 points during the 2022–2023 regular season. Points Per Game (PPG): This translates to approximately 0.60 to 1.05 points per game, indicating a strong offensive contribution. Top Performers: Players like Timo Meier (86 points) and Kyle Connor (80 points) were standout contributors in their respective teams' top six. 🔍 Comparison to Your 17-Year-Old WHL Example If a 17-year-old winger in the WHL records 98 points in 68 games, that equates to approximately 1.44 points per game. Projecting this to an 82-game NHL season using a typical WHL-to-NHL translation factor of 0.30, the NHLe would be: 1.44 PPG × 0.30 × 82 games = ~35.5 points This projection is slightly below the typical production of a second-line winger on a playoff team.

If you strike down the Concept of Benson, he will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

This is an interesting thread. It's boiled down to: everyone here is high on Benson. It's a matter of whether or not you think he is top 6 this year, next year or the year after.

I did this once but tomorrow, I'll pull the numbers for toi. Again if Zach Benson were 6'3" none of you would say anything. If he were a rookie this year, you'd be excited. It's because he's 5'10" and played last yr at 19. Show you're work then. Give us the last 3 years.

No he didn't. He got a healthy dose of ***** including Cozens. Half his time is with guys with the yips.

We just have different views on these players. I think Benson is a better all around player than Quinn or Kulich already. Indeed, when I look at our forward group, I think that Quinn and Kulich are the obvious positions where improvement could be made via trade. I would move them for Rust and Rakell without hesitation, if such a trade was available. Agreed though, that Benson should not have been in the NHL two seasons ago, not because he was ruined or because he was unable to compete at the NHL level, but because there was just no good reason to keep an 18 year old, 13th OA pick on the roster of a team with $10million+ in cap space. That was negligence on Adams's part.

Tage and Tuch are bonefide top line players. Zuck and Norris are legit top 6. Zucker is an option on #1 based on available choices. Quinn, Kulich and Benson are not legit top 6 but I rank them in that order as options based on arguments provided before. Quinn and Kulich have shown better acumen at scoring. We all can be wrong about our projections. Kevyn was wrong keeping him as a top 13 player two years ago, and that’s his f$&king job. I’m using history to determine where he is slotted.

Well, to be fair, Zach Benson actually needs to get 35 points still. I'm predicting that happens in 26-27

You're cherry picking. If we look at all recent NHL playoff teams, a second-line winger is usually producing in the ballpark of: 55–60 points over an 82-game season. A 35-point NHLe (like Benson) projects slightly below a typical top-six winger on a playoff team.

…..With better players - throughout the season, which you fail to acknowledge. Your take that his points will increase by playing on the first line is based on nothing. It’s a fallacy and wishful thinking. Could they increase? Maybe? But it’s more probable than not Zucker is a better option to start the season. Please don’t force us to create a Concept of Benson.

Just so everyone knows... He went down by .1 g/60 and .1a/60 He also went to .8 from .6 in primary A/60 so sure, you're right. He went down a whopping 0.1

Just for clarity, are you saying Zucker and Norris are bonafide first line forwards or top-6? I would not consider either, nor Benson, to be a "bonafide first-line" forward. A healthy Norris, perhaps, has a chance to be; we really don't know what an 80 game healthy Norris is. Last year's Zucker, I think, can certainly be a top-6 player on a playoff team and could play on the first line of a playoff team in the right set of circumstances, but I don't think he's anyone's idea of a legit/bonafide first-line player. But, I think we really just we have different views of what Benson is going to be this year (not what he has been). I think his scoring will improve to 40 points at minimum and he will prove to be a legit, effective, top-6 winger this year. That's just my projection though; I acknowledge I could be very wrong.

This is completely false The 3rd and 4th highest scoring wingers from each eastern playoff team: Washington: McMichael 57, wilson 65 Montreal: Gallagher 38, Laine 33 Devils: Noesen 41, Palat 28 Carolina: Roslovic 39, Martinook 36 Tampa: Guentzel 80, Paul 41 Toronto: Knies 58, McMann 34 Florida: Verhaeghe 53, Rodrigues 32 Ottawa: Giroux 50, Greig 34 7 of the 8 playoff teams had 2nd line wingers with between 30-40 points. Half the 2nd line wingers in the playoffs had less than 40 points. Only 4 met your average. Do better.

The issue regarding Benson is not whether his numbers were at a top line level last year. They were not. That doesn't mean that they won't be around the 55-60 pt. range you find acceptable this year. I think they will; many do not. TBD.

If your first or second line winger has an NHLe of 30-40 points, you're not a playoff team. Second line wingers on playoffs teams average around 55-60 points. Do better.

Tage, Tuch, zuck and Norris are bonafide. After that, Quinn and Kulich each rank higher of who I think is a top 6. Based on overall age, experience and scoring ability. I understand the desire to have someone with a defensive skill set “compliment” the other two players. Sometimes a player with zero defensive capabilities can complement a line by scoring 40 goals. In a previous post I shared that I went through last years line combinations and zero teams had a top line winger with less than 28 points and 10 goals for an entire season. It doesn’t meet the standards. FWIW, Zucker Tage Tuch was my “first line” under a different topic. I also acknowledged that maybe Benson is middle six and based on his age and with growth could become a “legit top 6”, but you & LGR are not acknowledging that he played more minutes, with better players and regressed in goals/assists/point per 60. That’s not deserving of top line. His size will not prevent him from excelling in the league. But his lack of scoring and shooting percentage will. If you have Quinn with Norris on Line #2 then I can see Benson supporting in a top six role. But it’s not my definition of Legit. YET.

Sometimes resorting to stats isn't as informative as one would like them to be because players have different assets and roles. However, on how many other teams do you believe that Benson would have been on the first line? Not many, if any. I'm a Benson fan and admire how he plays more than what his production was last year. He certainly was rushed to the big league as a young player. But that's a reflection on how the GM went about rebuilding the roster when he took over. When a roster has a dearth of talent it's not surprising that a number of players play higher roles than they are fully prepared to handle. Will Benson be on one of the top two lines this season? I believe so. The difference will be that he will be better prepared to genuinely earn that role. (My opinion.)

Hope you are right.

Did we know that Zach Benson ranks 87th in NHL history in points by a teenager? He also ranks 44th all-time in games played by a teenager. His peers are such a weird list of names. One of his comparables — with 66 points in two teenage years — was Gordie Howe Number one in points is, unsurprisingly, Gretzky with 301. In games played? Timmy Connolly, 163. Connolly had 75 points to Benson's 58. Looking at the past 25 years, there are only 37 players who have played 100 games as a teen. Among them, Benson ranks 25th in points Here are some interesting two-season teenage comparables: Ryan O'Reilly: 55 points Jordan Staal: 70 Nico Hischier 99 Tim Stutzle 87 Alexander Barkov 60 Juraj Slavkovsky 60 ROR, Stutzle and Barkov took big leaps in year three. Staal and Hischier did not. The list of 2-season NHL teens is loaded with superstars but also has plenty of Kappo Kakkos, Jeff Skinners and Dave Gagners. Not a lot in there to establish firm trend lines

I'm as guilty as anyone of letting my posts digress into indictments of Adams and Ruff (and this post will be no different). To the bolded though (Thorny's comments on what his first line would be), a couple of things: 1.) Of course there are wingers better than Benson and of course Benson would be ideally slotted lower in the line-up. In the context of the Sabres's current roster, he is likely to be a top-six player though. In that regard and context, I think he is going to be good, and he is not high on my list of concerns. I'm much more concerned about Norris and Kulich filling top-6 centre roles than Benson playing left wing on a line with Thompson or Tuch. Which lead's me to: 2.) Please define what a "bonafide first line forward" is, and then list the NHL teams that have 3 of them? I'm not defending Adams's roster: We don't have a #1 centre (maybe we do in Thompson, but the coach can't/won't adjust his system to allow this to be effective); the current 6 roster defenseman and starting goalie are average aged 25 with the oldest being 27; only 8 of our projected 23 player roster have been in an NHL playoff game; etc.. But, it's just not the case that playoff teams have three "bonafide" 1st line players with a spare fourth one on line 2, and then three or 4 bonafide 2nd liners, with 1 or 2 playing on line 3, and so forth. If the point here is that in this critical off-season, Adams should do more to build a more playoff-likely roster and that if he did so that would more appropriately slot Benson in the middle-six instead of the top-six, well, no argument from me. I'm not sure though, what that has to do with someone having the opinion that Benson can be a good/effective (even "very" good) top-6 player this year. Thompson and Tuch are legit 1st line NHL players and Dahlin is a legit Norris contender, and that hasn't made us a playoff team. A fan thinking that the balance of evidence supports Benson can and/or will be an effective top-6 player this year, doesn't by any extension mean that they also think everything is ok with the roster.

People just have the wrong belief that the league continues to get bigger and bigger. The median weight of skaters continues to drop and the median height has stayed constant at 6’1” throughout the salary cap era. Florida plays a tough, gritty, hard nosed game but on average, they were the third lightest team in the playoffs ahead of only Tampa Bay and Colorado. Benson will be a star in this league but right now or he is fully capable of playing in the top six on a playoff team.

I agree it's weird how Benson's defensive excellence is completely handwaved away by some who can't stop complaining about the team's lack of defence. But I don't think its weird at all to question whether Benson can produce enough to play on a first line. Thompson and Kulich played almost exactly the same amount of minutes with Benson as they did with Peterka. Their xGF% with Benson: 57.7%, with Peterka 50.6%. Their actual GF% with Benson: 55.6%, with Peterka 65.4% And it's not like the eye test doesn't show Benson forcing turnovers and shooting into the crest in high danger areas, while Peterka bolts the zone early and picks corners from impossible angles.

You know how yall whine about the lack of players going to the hard places on the ice? That's where Benson passes to. Not here on Sabrespace apparently