nfreeman
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Posts posted by nfreeman
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As Dwight said, don't take it personally. IMO, your position constitutes sitting on the fence, which to me is a sign of apathy. That's just my opinion and is likely fueled by frustration. Frustrated that here we are in 2011 going into 2012 with yet another billionaire owner who is supposedly willing to spend money, yet here we are with the same exact quality of product on the ice as if the ownership change never happened.
Well, there's nothing "supposed" about his willingness to spend money. This offseason speaks for itself in that regard.
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So, this thread has advanced based on this straw man post. That others agree with this hyperbole is almost as shocking as the irony of d4rk calling Deluca "ridiculous".
And then comes some personal attacks because one group feels its point of view is superior to another group's and is therefore justified in their mockery. This passes as discourse in our society today, sadly.
I guess I'm a full-fledged member of Team Stormcloud because I DO NOT believe that a few player changes will take this club up to next level - a level where they are sincerely competitive and in a position to at least challenge for the Cup. Right now, as far as I see it, they are barely in a position to make the playoffs.
I'm on record here saying that I don't necessarily believe Ruff is the entire problem, and that he is not tops on my list of changes to be made, but that if he were a casualty in a shake-up I would not mind that. I believe that Darcy needs to go FIRST, and then some players, and then whatever else the new GM decides is in the best interest of a club - a club whose stated objectives is to "win a Stanley Cup, and then go win another Stanley Cup."
It appears that most people agree this team needs some sort of change. I would call that "common ground" among the various groups, or camps. Okay, going forward from that point, there are, obviously, various ways the Sabres can "change". That is where we all seem to differ.
I do not see, and I would be interested to see evidence of the contrary if someone can find it, anyone advocating "firing the entire staff" and "trading the entire roster" (should I bother with the "move the team" nonsense?). I do see people suggesting trading SOME players, people suggesting Ruff being fired, or some of the assistant coaches being fired, and that most people seem to agree Darcy should go. Are these not all valid paths to change for a professional sports team? Who here is so super-smart that they know WHICH of these strategies to enact, and in what order?
Sorry, but NONE OF US are that good. So, NONE OF US should be attacking another because we're thinking about "our" team. d4rk's ideas are no more valid than deluca's - and spndnchz's fandom is no better than dwight's.
Trolls are very obvious - most of us know one when we see one, eventually. Shame on you calling others "whiners" and "complainers" those who stick around here season after season, whose ideas differ from yours, but whose passion for the team is clearly as hot as yours. Perhaps you don't understand the point-of-view, but then be big about it and admit it, rather than pedestrian and mock it. There's no shame in not being able to relate to what someone is saying, so long as the point in question is lucid and part of the conversation (or, in other words, not trolling or just out-and-out misinformed and foolish). That is where interesting conversations BEGIN - right now some of you are shooting down the interesting conversations before they begin.
Stafford for Malkin. Done.
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The broom may come, but the mess will be 3x as big as it could have been.
Right now it is only twice as big.
That's why the complainers, keep complaining!
Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. You are right that they could've gotten a few draft picks for TC and Stafford at the deadline last year but overall the Sabres' cupboard is quite full. There are also no real albatross contracts albeit a few that are overpriced.
I guess it is the classic "which came first" question. Is it the coach? Is it the players? Is it something else such as injuries? I honestly don't know. If I just spent a gazzilion dollars on a team and dressing room and am in it for the long haul, I am taking Chz's approach. Get healthy (one can hope). See the results. And if it still isn't performing then, I am getting a new hockey guy in as GM to figure it out for me.
Good post.
I want to believe this, I truly do, it's just I heard this before and nothing ever happens. I have no reason to put any faith in the idea that this off-season will be any different. They already have the injury excuse firmly in place and you know Regier and Ruff can ride an excuse to death like no other. Regier will spend to the Cap again (poorly) next season and Ruff will be afforded the comfort of every excuse imaginable. We will be here at the same time next year in the same conversation and we all know it.
The answer to that question is really simple. If it is a few players than it is the individual players. If it is an entire roster of players continually not showing up at game time prepared and enthused about playing, than it is the coach. I hope that helps.
As to the first bolded part: while there is a part of me that feels a bit of dread about the potential truthiness of this, I really believe that TP is here to win the big prize, and more than one. It will happen. It will probably take longer than any of us wants (probably because the hockey gods are smiting all of us with a lengthy punishment for the Drury/Briere/Soupy debacle), but it will happen.
As to the 2nd bolded part: this is true, but I don't see it happening with the Sabres. It's not the entire roster, or even half of it, IMHO. But it's true of enough important guys that some of them have to go.
It's not apathy, it's realism. You're mistaking the two. I understand where this team is, and I understand that making some changes could fix it. Not wanting to burn the whole team down doesn't make me apathetic.
Another good one.
Agreed, I gave him the benefit of the doubt at the beginning when he showed up and starting throwing his weight around at the beginning of the season. But as typical of Stafford he is a lazy dweeb who has things other than hockey on his mind when he is on the ice. He is not a leader and it is time he steps up. Yes he has lots of talent, but carries a California attitude showing up in spirit only when it suits him.
Dump, put him on waivers, whatever... but agreed he is a cancer on this team. At least Roy puts in the effort as much as he appears to have lost a step. And Goose is what he is making due on his size, but lacks the talent of a much needed center. The Sabres are putting to much emphasis on their young D to carry them and the puck up the ice because of a dirth of experienced talent at center.
Looks like a long season. Maybe they would be better off finishing in the last 5. They sure could use a talented draft pick.
I know I should, but I'm having a hard time giving up on Stafford yet.
Does Stafford have to go if he scores six goals in the next five games? Do players on other teams in Stafford cap hit range, who are also underachieving, have to go too?
Obviously everyone would love for Stafford to find his game again. I personally think it's more a confidence and mental toughness issue than an effort issue, but I could be deluding myself.
And what's with bolding the entire post?
Where do you come up with this sh*t? The first thing I said was that I understand the team's position and the need to make changes. But there's a difference between bringing in Zubrus at the trade deadline and trading away players like Roy or Stafford for picks, or hiring Teppo Numminen vs. firing Lindy Ruff.
I'm not advocating "cosmetic" changes. I'm advocating real changes. Within reason.
That is NOT apathetic. It's a realization that the level of risk doesn't always equal the level of reward.
Well said.
This is your best post in your nearly four years here. Strong, and right on.
What about the dirty ones?
Well, there's the fact that if everything is blown up then it would be another several year wait, AT BEST, before they win the cup. Not to mention no playoffs this year. Unless he thinks that replacing the coaches and roster means getting all playoff caliber coaches and players in return.
Changes? Yes.
Meaningful changes? Indeed. I'd consider moving two assistant Cs as meaningful.
Wholesale, blow it up changes? Only for knee-jerk reactionaries.
GO SABRES!!!
I agree completely with the bolded part, except that you are a bit off on the meaning of "reactionaries."
Were fans excited about Pegua because he would play it safe or because the idea of an owner willing to "go big or go home" was a dream come true?
My logic is as sound as it gets. You buy a failing restaurant and maintain the same general manger and chef but are willing to pay more for sanitation removal, you cant reasonably expect success.
Not "go big or go home." We want, and I think we're going to get, "Go big and be in the hunt every year."
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You get rid of Darcy and Lindy because they put this entire team together, they named the captains, the installed the system, they spent over the cap, they were given the rope to hang themselves with and have done a fine job in doing so.
If you let Darcy make the decisions on who to unload players for......how many times are we going to double-down on status quo? Their vision is a failure......and now to give these guys the priviledge to sell off the broken parts of their self-created debacle........WTF?
The hole for this franchise gets deeper...and deeper...and deeper.
Well, I just think it's too soon to make this determination, especially given the injuries. As awful as Saturday night (and a number of other games this year) was, I think it's both fair and prudent to let the season play itself out -- including allowing DR to make whatever trades he thinks will help -- before making a decision. And there is nothing in DR's history to suggest that he'll make poor trades that the team would later regret if he gets canned this summer.
When you have a problem with your car, do you ask the mechanic to rip everything out and replace everything? I usually ask him to fix the glaring issue first, and if a problem remains, then I have him fix that.
Lindy isn't the glaring issue. The players that are lazy are. start there. if there's still an issue, then start looking elsewhere. If you try to replace the entire engine when the transmission is the problem, you haven't fixed anything, you've just left the other issue to continue to get worse.
This isn't a car we're talking about. This is a group of humans gathered together, ostensibly, to accomplish a singular objective. It's more like a platoon, where if it routinely fails to meet its objective, the platoon commander and his/her officers are replaced, rather than replacing the entire corps.
If you want to liken the Sabres to machines, or any non-human system, I can certainly oblige with the appropriate analogies, but suffice to say for now that I do not believe your analogy is appropriate.
Quite frankly, I think the problem starts with DR, and cascades from there. Yes, Ruff is right under him in terms of flow, however, I think too many players are too comfortable with their positions. In a platoon, if that's what you would rather liken it to, if you have a small group of soldiers who lackadaisically do their job (notice how I'm not saying the whole platoon. In my original post I clearly stated that a few players are the problem), they'd be at best reallocated, worse court marshaled for dereliction of duty, regardless of their leader. So, seeing as how we can't court marshal the players, we may as well reallocate (trade a few) somewhere.
That's where we differ then. I don't see the need to be so drastic. Try one thing, see what happens, then try another. It's not like we're last in the league. We're not good, but we could be a lot worse. I don't see the need to force that hand.
Good stuff here boys.
Here's what people aren't talking about when it comes to the standings. People like to fall back on "last year at this time they went on a run!" At this point in time however, 12 teams are in the thick of it and Tampa is not far off. As the conference games start to pile up now, almost EVERY game means that the Sabres will lose ground to at least one team in the East. There is no scoreboard rooting, unless you assume your goal is now just to sneak in the playoffs, so you root for the real teams like Boston, Philly and Pitt to run away with things. When the Sabres lose a game, someone is going to take 2 points from them, as well as a possible 6 other teams. Then you have the Blessed Bettman bonus point.
You NEED to go on a run. You can't rely on other teams to crap the bed because too many teams have already distanced themselves and almost everyone is alive. If you conceed the division to Boston, you need to battle 9 other teams for the 4th seed and home ice advantage. You need to battle 9 teams for 5 spots. You need to battle 9 teams for the 8th spot.
We are 40% through the season.
All of this is 100% true. If the Sabres continue to play sub-DeLuca-.500 hockey they aren't going to make the playoffs. And if that happens, I think a new broom will sweep clean.
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People, well let's narrow that down, me and you, see it differently. You have a different perspective than I. You've been around since what I assume is near inception (no insult meant). I been around since Vanek and Roy were born. I think, since I've been watching and following the Sabres, they done fairly well with what they've had. Got real close a few times and at least stayed competitive most years through the thick and thin of owners.
I AM expecting more out of this team, more from management and coaches, don't get me wrong there. It IS a pure waste of my emotional time to bitch and complain about how they win, how they lose, how they talk to the press, how they get blown out once in a while.
What do I want to see happen? I want my Sabres back. ALL of them. I want the first two games of this season back. I want them to play hard and throw the puck at the net like they did in those first two games as much as possible.
Who do I want gone? Stafford's one. Roy may be another. Those moves are next to impossible to make right now with the injuries they have.
After X-mas the team should be falling back into place. Myers, Boyes, Leino, Kaleta, Ennis, and most likely a healed Gerbe. I don't think one of the injured is affecting this team right now. It's all of them put together. I'd give it 10 games after they are all back to proclaim judgement.
Out of the mouths of babes...
I have a question......
If Stafford ends up in Detroit or Vancouver, and scores an average of 30-35 goals and wins a Cup in the next 3 years.....what will people say?
If Roy ends up on a team with some natural leaders and a coach who is respected, and puts up an 80 point pace the rest of the year and suddenly plays the puck hard.....what will people say?
Every move that Regier and Ruff make together is another wasted opportunity. Now you have the owner calling out your Franchise Goaltender in the media. But we all know how mentally strong Miller is, so that shouldn't be a problem.
Why are Pegula/Black going to bat so hard for Ruff? Miller wasn't the reason Pittsburgh outhit Buffalo 18-5 after 2 periods. Miller wasn't the reason Sabres defensemen backpeddled into their own zone consistantly. Yet the talking points have sure made the rounds the past few weeks about Ruff being secure and a non-issue.
I am not a Miller appologist, you know this. But for the owner to come out and slam him in his first public comment on ANYTHING about this team in quite a while......that's not good.
If this team is the problem, and I don't disagree......why in the hell would you leave the same people who put the team together and were responsible for their nurturing and development....IN CHARGE TO MAKE FURTHER ROSTER MOVES???
If this team sold off parts last deadline (Yeah Scott, many of us thought that was the smart play), and brought in 2 or 3 true leaders with an on-ice and off ice presence (would have been much easier to do with a bunch of extra picks), then you could have salvaged this team and even let Lindy have a shot at coaching them. It is getting so far past the point of no return now, that all the money in the world isn't going to save this ship.
I really want to give Larry Quinn a Christmas hug. Larry....you win.....you have created a true masterpiece.....
And if Roy is unloaded and the team suddenly takes off -- in the exact fashion it did last year -- what will other people say?
It may very well be time to can DR and/or LR. But the idea of doing so in order to invigorate Roy and Stafford makes me sick. (And, I would venture to say, would be a poor hockey decision.)
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If by putting them in a better financial situation means freeing up cap space, I guess this is somewhat believable. The loss of Stafford could easily be replaced. I am beating a dead horse in regards to this, but I don't know what they do at center for the remainder of this season if Roy is traded....
I will predict that they do exactly what they did last year without Roy -- win a lot more games.
Kassian making Staff expendable?
Kassian is playing well, but I think Stafford is making Stafford expendable.
What do the Sabres do at center if they trade Roy? I don't care. I know we're never winning a Stanley Cup with floaters like Roy and Stafford on the roster. If we can clear them out and add to the new core (led by Myers, Kassian, etc.), that's a big win for our franchise.
Certainly not with them occupying key roles.
I just am throwing it out there that if the return for Stafford and Roy is prospects and picks, this team may miss the playoffs...especially if Miller continues to ###### the bed.
I am okay with it, I just don't know if Regier would do it, considering that a playoff miss might cost him his job.
If Miller doesn't get his game right they are hosed regardless of what else happens.
One of the rumors I saw on Spectorshockey last night was that Columbus is looking to move Derick Brassard but want no or minimal salary coming back, really they want a prospect/pick. Brassard may not be the answer to our Cup dreams but he's a natural center. I'm starting to like the idea of moving Roy and Stafford out, promoting Kassian to the 2nd line, and giving up a pick to get Brassard. Two underachievers out the door, a new (hopefully motivated) player replacing them, and let's work on a bigger upgrade at the deadline.
Works for me.
I say just get it over with and release the two of them.
Oh, sorry I thought this was the breast thread,
Very nice.
I think this team would make the playoffs. We're in right now with a bunch of guys who regularly take nights off. Eliminate that cancer from the team for some picks, maybe bring in another vet with good leadership presence and you've got a team with enough heart and talent combined to make things interesting.
I firmly believe in addition by subtraction.
Me too.
Roy is having 1 BAD SEASON. He's played well for us, including a PPG last season until the injury. Stafford is a different matter, he has underachieved more than achieved so I'd agree. But boy am I getting tired of fanbois lumping those two together like their twins.
Are you joking? You're really going to use last year's results as an argument IN FAVOR of keeping Roy? You're aware of how the team did last year with him and without him, yes? And of how he did in the playoffs the previous year?
If anyone is getting tarred with the other guy's brush in this situation, it's Stafford getting tarred with Roy's.
My observation isn't based on this season alone. Roy gets his points. I'm suure he'll get them this year too. But it's smoke and mirrors. He's consistently one fo the guys on this team that backs off when the game gets tough. Glides into loose pucks instead of going hard after them. He's prone to weak stick check attempts and lets off the gas in the D zone. He's not a guy who inlcudes hard work into his game and gets exposed when the opposing team is working their ass off. He's been playing that way for most of his career so this isn't a knee jerk reaction. I've had my fill of him.
Well said.
The only negative thing I could say about it is that we moved those players too late. Stafford clearly should have been moved earlier in 2011 when his value was at an all-time high. Roy should have been moved earlier than that.
Regier overvalues his own players. We never trade anyone when their value is highest. If he were an investor, his strategy would be "Sell Low, Buy High" and he'd be broke.
I think the fans have come to terms with the fact that the (then promising) core we were left with after Black Sunday isn't going to succeed. I wish our GM could do the same.
Based on how the playoffs went, wasn't he exactly right? That team *wasn't* built to win in the playoffs. We overpowered a team that wasn't close to us in talent (Islanders), struggled against the Rangers, and then were absolutely no match for Ottawa.
If anything, PA was one of the few people thinking clearly when he watched that 2007 team.
Your points are reasonable, but:
- DR did unload Biron when his value was at its peak; and
- I miss PA too, but I don't think the Sabres were no match for Ottawa in 2007. They lost 3 OT games in that series, including one in 2OT.
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In the words of Geddy Lee:
He's got a force field and a flexible plan
He keeps posting trades that no one understands
He plays fast forward for as long as he can
But he won't need a bed
He's a digital man
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Alright you guys win. I give up and I'm done. Congratulations. Reading this board is making hate hockey. Focker out.
Perhaps the solution is not to post ill-conceived gibberish if you don't want to get called on it.
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Wife just christened the new (used) car with a dent on the fender that will require paint and body work.
Such is the marriage tax...
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Wayne Simmonds against the Habs: Shoot. Get rebound and try to stuff it. Still no? Try again. No? Try again. Goal.
Drew Stafford: Well, I shot it. It didn't go in.
That's not coaching. That's heart. Simmonds might--MIGHT--have half of Staff's talent. But he gets in and digs. Stafford won't reach for a freaking puck that's three feet away. Please, please get rid of him.
No problem. Would you prefer Getzlaf or Malkin?
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I am sick of hearing about Arizona and the state's endless racist campaigns. I propose a test. Show the other 49 states 'The Grapes of Wrath', except, convert the words spoken by Henry Fonda and the rest of the migrant farm workers to Spanish, and lets see how they react. Show Arizona the same movie. I will guess the majority of the population in the other 49 states will call the movie a classic story of the American Dream. I will also guess that the majority of people in Arizona will call the movie an example how illegal immigrants are destroying America.
What a load of crap this is. Have you ever been to Arizona? Do you know anyone who lives there? More importantly, do you not realize that you are doing to the 6.5MM people who live there exactly what you are accusing them of doing to the immigrants?
If you like Buffalo, and don't want people to slur the city and its residents, then don't do the same thing to other people/places.
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Holy ######. Can we bring Snowmobiler97 back? Might as well if this is the sort of drivel that passes for discussion now.
Dude, you are so analog.
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I'll say it...I never want another Russian on this team. For every Datsyuk there is a Afinogenov, Kalinin, Semin, Kryukov. Even with the best if the lot they are head cases. See Kovy & Ovie.
Are you really Don Cherry in disguise?
Well, I can't agree with a blanket refusal to bring in Russian players, but at the same time there is an undeniable issue with quite a few of the Russian players across the NHL. Kovy and Ovechkin look like franchise-killers right now. Semin is even worse in the playoffs than the Sabres' top 6. Nashville had a good forward who bolted for the KHL despite being under contract. And Khabibulin did time in the slammer last year for DWI!
Of course, Malkin and Datsyuk are pretty good...
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It was a year ago today that Stafford had just 5 goals (like he has this year) and got his first hat trick. Just sayin'.
OK, but...
He also had only played in 15 games at this point last season. Just sayin'. ;)
And the hammer drops.
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And I wonder how much of Stafford's funk this season has to do with Derek Roy being here? IYR Staffords goal streaks last season came with Roy on the shelf.
This. Stafford and Ennis are exactly the type of weakminded/young and impressionable player that is dragged down into mediocrity by the Dark SGM Lord. As far as that goes, it's critical to keep him away from Adam and Kassian.
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Amen. I was SO hoping we'd trade him last year, or right after last year, when his value was at an all-time high. I just wasn't buying the "he figured it out" line about him suddenly having a terrific work ethic because that's what it takes to make it in the NHL. (Funny coincidence that he'd "figure it out" in a contract year.)
And I've never forgiven him for his "we've got other guys for that" line about fighting. You're either a hockey player on this team or you're not.
Also, can we just once trade a guy when his value is high? Just once? Darcy needs some foresight. Afinogenov led the team in points after 2006 but it was clear even then that he wasn't a guy we'd count on the a Cup run. Instead of trading him, we re-signed him and by the time he left, his value was basically zero. What are the chances Stafford is untradeable in a year or two?
That would be nice.
I will say that although I may be kidding myself, I don't see Stafford's struggles this year as the result of lack of effort. To me it looks like he's completely lost his confidence. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because an unproductive rut is an unproductive rut -- but I think there's a greater chance of him digging himself out of it at some point when he's hustling as opposed to when he's just mailing it in until the puck comes to him in scoring position.
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That's funny....because since 1999 when the Bills last were in the playoffs....Lindy Ruff has won a total of 5 playoff series.
Boston has won 4 since April of this year.........
My complaint?
Homers
Well, if you're going cherry-pick and spin, it should be noted that prior to this year, Boston had won a grand total of 2 playoff series since that same 1999 cutoff date. Also worth noting that you chose that late 1999 cutoff in order to omit Lindy's 3 playoff series wins in 1999 and 2 in 1998 -- which is another 5 series wins (compared to the Bruins' one series win in that same period, which was one of 2 series wins by the Bruins in the 1993-1999 period, giving them a total of 4 series wins from 1993 through 2009, inclusive).
Finally, it's worth noting that the "fire the coach" yahoos were out in full force for Julien's head after the Bruins blew a 3-0 lead to Philly in 2010 -- but Chiarelli doesn't make decisions based on what those guys want. I guess it worked out for them.
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Toothache all week. Root canal tomorrow.
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Can we add in one more detail to that? We need a Running Man type situation where Korab, GoDD, nFreeman, and others hunt down and kill them. This would bring so much more traffic to this website (and a whole new batch of targets for that mystery island).
Last season's losers.
The Most Dangerous Game without the racist/classist/elitist overtones? Add me to the list.
Not sure where I am watching the game tonight. Probably at home with beer in hand. Plan on some serious barstool time tomorrow. It's my birfday tomorrow and Imma spending it right.
Running Man was a pretty solid Ahnold movie, IMHO.
Happy bday! Hope you have a great one.
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how come all these a-holes get millions of dollars and I get nuthin? :censored:
Maybe because they worked like crazy their entire lives to earn it?
Nobody "gets" millions of dollars they don't earn, unless it's via inheritance.
Sitting around complaining that no one is giving you anything is a good way to perpetuate the situation.
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I met this really cool girl online. She's only 16, but seems really mature.
Turns out she's an undercover cop! How cool is that at her age!
Outstanding.
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Has not been a good year to be a dictator. Bad 24 months for that matter... This keeps up, generation millenias guidance counselors are going to need to remove that from the guidance section...
If Assad has any brains at all (which I doubt), he'll figure out a way to make off with as much $$ as possible and get on the next plane to Venezuela. Otherwise he's the next POS thug dictator to be literally ripped to pieces by an angry mob.
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Yes, it is.
Who here has been on I-95 in Georgia? I hadn't been on there in a while and it was still relatively early in the morning. I get on there, drive from the Florida state line all the way up to Savannah, and I rolled the windows down on my big rig. It was so pleasant to get a whiff of that ocean air and drive through all that open road. Yes, the Georgia Low Country is something to write home about. :thumbsup:
I haven't done the drive, but I've been to Savannah. What a great hidden gem of a city.
I finally got that job offer I was looking for an accepted it. Even better, I thought my boss was going to flip (because they rely on me too much around here), but she didn't. She acknowledged the crisis they'll be in, but admitted that she understood my reason for leaving.
Now, off to the pub. :beer:
Congrats!
As for me, after an extremely busy week, I'm having dinner with my wife and some friends tonight at a really good restaurants. It's a crowd that can be counted on for a substantial amount of boozing. I'll then stumble onto the couch, watch the Sabres and sleep in tomorrow. Then, one of my best friends will be in town visiting tomorrow night and we'll hang out and watch the game. I am very psyched to get to tonight.
Go Sabres.
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Sheesh how old are ya Shrades? I hope I make to 40 considering it's next friggin week!!
Happy 40th!
I have a date tomorrow night (spoliers for the F'N Friday thread!) and I don't know how to date someone local any more. The last two girlfriends lived out of town, and the one before that our first date was in 2003. Anything changed in the last 8 years?
Just get some exercise that day, wear a shirt that fits you correctly, ask her about her family, job, travels, etc. and only have 1 or 2 drinks at dinner. You'll be able to make her hop on 1 foot and bark like a dog by 10 pm.
Stafford needs to go
in The Aud Club
Posted
The entire team other than Miller crapped the bed in that game. Roy didn't stand out.
Now, if you want to suggest that Roy's return caused his teammates to crap the bed, I won't stand in your way.