McGrattan to Coyotes

[WayneGibbous]

Andrew Peters won't be caving in Big McGratts' grille in a Sens jersey any longer. And we probably won't see it next year as well seeing that they played then this year.

[deluca67]

Andrew Peters won't be caving in Big McGratts' grille in a Sens jersey any longer. And we probably won't see it next year as well seeing that they played then this year.

There goes Peter's one victory per year. :thumbdown:

[gregkash]

Didn't they change it so we play every team this year?

[carpandean]

Three thoughts about this video:

1) I forgot what it looked like when Peters actually faced his opponents.

2) That was a heck of a fake that set up McGrattan for the shot to the "button".

3) I always thought that Peters made a pretty classy move calling in the linesmen rather than really hurting McGrattan.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I guess that is better than last season but I would still not call that "facing" his opponent ... I'm no fight fanatic, but I know a good one when I see it ... the first fight on this one is both guys standing in and facing their opponent ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=uugzm39I_I4 ... makes Peters and McGrattan look like wimps.

[Bmwolf21]

I guess that is better than last season but I would still not call that "facing" his opponent ... I'm no fight fanatic, but I know a good one when I see it ... the first fight on this one is both guys standing in and facing their opponent ... http://youtube.com/watch?v=uugzm39I_I4 ... makes Peters and McGrattan look like wimps.

I don't like Peters' "hold him at arm's length and turn away" strategy anymore than you do, but he was definitely square with McGrattan for most of that fight.

 

Rayzor was a much better fighter, no doubt about it. But looking at the size of the opponents they faced, I think Peters is practicing some self-preservation with his style, lame as it may be. Some of the guys that Peters has fought regularly are much bigger than what Rayzor faced the most: McGrattan is 6-4, 231; Parros is 6-5, 232; Colton Orr is 6-3, 222; Wade Belak 6-4, 213; Andre Roy 6-4 213...

[Goodfella25]

McGrattan for a 5th rounder? Really? He is barely any better than Peters in the talent department, and Peters is arguably a better fighter. Why can't we swing that kind of deal?

 

And if the Sabres are determined to keep an "enforcer", we should go out and get Todd Fedoruk. He's taken a couple nasty punches the last couple years, but he can still fight and not only that but he can be trusted to play out there as well as throw his weight around. Not only can Peters not play, but he can't even hit because he's too slow to catch anyone.

[fiftyone]

Didn't they change it so we play every team this year?

 

no

[BetweenThePipes00]

I don't like Peters' "hold him at arm's length and turn away" strategy anymore than you do, but he was definitely square with McGrattan for most of that fight.

 

Rayzor was a much better fighter, no doubt about it. But looking at the size of the opponents they faced, I think Peters is practicing some self-preservation with his style, lame as it may be. Some of the guys that Peters has fought regularly are much bigger than what Rayzor faced the most: McGrattan is 6-4, 231; Parros is 6-5, 232; Colton Orr is 6-3, 222; Wade Belak 6-4, 213; Andre Roy 6-4 213...

I swear you disagree with me just to do it sometimes ... do you realize Peters is 6-4, 247?!?! Ray routinely fought guys bigger than him, he was the smaller guy in at least half the clips on that link. Peters is rarely going to be giving up any size or reach.

Besides, it's not about Ray and Peters, McGratton was just as guilty of turning his head away in that fight ... a lot of these designated fighters who just do it when they "should" and only with each other are guilty of it ... guys used to fight because they were actually mad at each other and it didn't matter if they got hit, they wanted to get their shots in ... Peters doesn't even play enough to work up any frustration or anger.

[Bmwolf21]

I swear you disagree with me just to do it sometimes ... do you realize Peters is 6-4, 247?!?! Ray routinely fought guys bigger than him, he was the smaller guy in at least half the clips on that link. Peters is rarely going to be giving up any size or reach.

Besides, it's not about Ray and Peters, McGratton was just as guilty of turning his head away in that fight ... a lot of these designated fighters who just do it when they "should" and only with each other are guilty of it ... guys used to fight because they were actually mad at each other and it didn't matter if they got hit, they wanted to get their shots in ... Peters doesn't even play enough to work up any frustration or anger.

A little touchy, aren't we BTP? I wasn't disparaging Rayzor's ability nor was I downplaying anything he did. I never made any reference to Ray fighting guys smaller than him or Peters always fighting guys bigger than him.

 

In fact, looking at my post I see that this line right in the middle: "Rayzor was a much better fighter, no doubt about it."

 

I simply pointed that there is a fundamental difference between regularly heavyweights who are bigger, stronger and can hit harder versus fighting usually smaller guys - "middleweights" if you will, who aren't as strong or hit as hard as the big guys can.

 

As for the head-turning - it's just a different game now, and outside of a handful of the big heavyweights, I really don't see a lot of guys standing there and going toe-to-toe anymore. Too much money at stake to risk losing your career to a broken face or series of concussions.

[BetweenThePipes00]

A little touchy, aren't we BTP? I wasn't disparaging Rayzor's ability nor was I downplaying anything he did. I never made any reference to Ray fighting guys smaller than him or Peters always fighting guys bigger than him.

 

In fact, looking at my post I see that this line right in the middle: "Rayzor was a much better fighter, no doubt about it."

 

I simply pointed that there is a fundamental difference between regularly heavyweights who are bigger, stronger and can hit harder versus fighting usually smaller guys - "middleweights" if you will, who aren't as strong or hit as hard as the big guys can.

 

As for the head-turning - it's just a different game now, and outside of a handful of the big heavyweights, I really don't see a lot of guys standing there and going toe-to-toe anymore. Too much money at stake to risk losing your career to a broken face or series of concussions.

I was kinda kidding about arguing with me ... and I wasn't trying to defend Ray. Just saying that to me it is NOT understandable that Peters shies away because he is fighting big guys, because he is a big guy too ... him fighting McGratton should be like Domi-Ray ... evenly matched, just have at it.

 

I understand the risk and all that, that explains why we will never have Danny Gare vs. Terry O'Reilly again, but this is Peters WHOLE JOB. He doesn't skate enough of a regular shift (or skate fast enough, for that matter) to be a feared hitter in the context of the game. he doesn't even protect the Sabres from cheap shots because he's never on the ice to go after the offender ... he ends up out there the NEXT shift to fight the other team's useless goon who had nothing to do with it. Given all that, I just think he should actually FIGHT when he fights. It's his job!

 

(I am really just having fun here, desperate for anything to argue about that is not related to the front office...)

[Bmwolf21]

I was kinda kidding about arguing with me ... and I wasn't trying to defend Ray. Just saying that to me it is NOT understandable that Peters shies away because he is fighting big guys, because he is a big guy too ... him fighting McGratton should be like Domi-Ray ... evenly matched, just have at it.

 

I understand the risk and all that, that explains why we will never have Danny Gare vs. Terry O'Reilly again, but this is Peters WHOLE JOB. He doesn't skate enough of a regular shift (or skate fast enough, for that matter) to be a feared hitter in the context of the game. he doesn't even protect the Sabres from cheap shots because he's never on the ice to go after the offender ... he ends up out there the NEXT shift to fight the other team's useless goon who had nothing to do with it. Given all that, I just think he should actually FIGHT when he fights. It's his job!

 

(I am really just having fun here, desperate for anything to argue about that is not related to the front office...)

The evenly-matched aspect is irrelevant when you consider the force of the bigger guys' punches. When you start talking about the increased PSI of the punches, leverage from longer arms, etc there is a much higher likelihood of someone like McGrattan or Parros seriously hurting someone with one punch than a PJ Stock or Domi. I could see the smaller guys doing considerable damage with multiple shots to the same area, but with a heavyweight it's much more likely that one blow could devastate an opponent.

 

Hell, look at the fight linked earlier in the thread - no one considers Peters a great fighter, but one bomb ended that fight quickly. Fedoruk has been knocked out twice in the last couple years, needing to be taken off the ice on a stretcher after

and needing titanium plates inserted in his face after 6-7 Boogaard blasted him with one bomb.

 

Just because Peters is as big as these heavyweights doesn't mean his face is that much stronger to withstand these higher-force punches.

 

And the argument against Peters not really protecting his teammates - I agree, the NHL has devolved the role of enforcer through rule changes, so you rarely see enforcers go after the perpetrator. And I'm not defending Peters' abilities as an enforcer - although I think two years ago he showed he can fight with most of the enforcers in the league, but for some reason decided to go back to this "Dancing with the Stars" routine. I think we certainly could upgrade the enforcer position on this team, but right now that's so far down on the list of stuff that needs to be upgraded taht it's a non-issue.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Like I said, I was just having fun ... I really don't think these guys hit THAT much harder than fighers of the past, but whatever, I can't argue PSI numbers with you ... If these guys really hit TOO hard for each other, then they really should just get it out of the sport altogether.

[Bmwolf21]

Like I said, I was just having fun ... I really don't think these guys hit THAT much harder than fighers of the past, but whatever, I can't argue PSI numbers with you ... If these guys really hit TOO hard for each other, then they really should just get it out of the sport altogether.

No worries, I'm having fun too...

 

I just can't imagine that the force of their punches hasn't increased exponentially as these guys have gotten so much bigger...these guys are taller and thicker, weight training, working with nutritionists, working with fighting coaches, doing MMA-style stuff to give themselves an edge, so I have no doubt that the punching strength of the average enforcer is much higher today that it was just 5, 10 years ago.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I'm sure you are right ... if the result is they are all afraid to get hit, replace them with hockey players.

[WayneGibbous]

I'm sure you are right ... if the result is they are all afraid to get hit, replace them with hockey players.

 

Petes didn't have a good year last season but I think his lack of playing time and decrease in fights helped that. I would be sad to see him go to tell you the truth. I guess it's the sentimental part of me.

 

I also thought that McGratts was one of the 'untouchable' enforcers that would never be traded. I guess its a sign of a new philosophy in Ottawa. Different topic but Craig Hartsburg of all people is not the coach to put Ottawa over the top. I have a bet with my bro that if they don't win the cup this year then Murray is gonzo.

[Corp000085]

Not to jump in super late or anything, but I think that the peters fighting style has nothing to do with the size of the fighers, Newtons involved in a punching motion, or the $$ involved. It has everything to do with emotions. The rules have all but eliminated the enforcer role. The fighting now is just a sideshow. Take for example, two fights that peters has gotten into.

 

1) look at any of the "turn your face away" fights

 

2) look at the fight in the ottawa game after drury got knocked the f out, or a ray, tony twist, probert, etc. fight on youtube

 

 

In example 1, you will see a contrived fight void of emotions. They're both going through the routine that they were coached to go through. Enforcers have been eliminated from the NHL, but the tradition of fighting continues. In example 2, these guys fought with emotion. They fought for themselves and their teammates... Not cause their coach put them out there for a sideshow.

 

I guarentee you this, if the NHL eliminates the instigator rule and all the silly suspension for fighting rules, Andrew Peters will jump from #1 whipping boy to #1 hero cause he'll go toe to toe with the next guy to slewfoot connolly, whether it be mcgratton or ovechkin. Hell, look back 2 years ago when ovechkin threw briere into the sidewall. Had there been no instigator rule, mair would have obliterated ovechkin.

[WayneGibbous]

Not to jump in super late or anything, but I think that the peters fighting style has nothing to do with the size of the fighers, Newtons involved in a punching motion, or the $$ involved. It has everything to do with emotions. The rules have all but eliminated the enforcer role. The fighting now is just a sideshow. Take for example, two fights that peters has gotten into.

 

1) look at any of the "turn your face away" fights

 

2) look at the fight in the ottawa game after drury got knocked the f out, or a ray, tony twist, probert, etc. fight on youtube

In example 1, you will see a contrived fight void of emotions. They're both going through the routine that they were coached to go through. Enforcers have been eliminated from the NHL, but the tradition of fighting continues. In example 2, these guys fought with emotion. They fought for themselves and their teammates... Not cause their coach put them out there for a sideshow.

 

I guarentee you this, if the NHL eliminates the instigator rule and all the silly suspension for fighting rules, Andrew Peters will jump from #1 whipping boy to #1 hero cause he'll go toe to toe with the next guy to slewfoot connolly, whether it be mcgratton or ovechkin. Hell, look back 2 years ago when ovechkin threw briere into the sidewall. Had there been no instigator rule, mair would have obliterated ovechkin.

 

I recall Goose dropping the gloves and punching Ovechkin right away after the hit...

[carpandean]

I recall Goose dropping the gloves and punching Ovechkin right away after the hit...

Sure did:

 

 

and Mair took on Muir. I loved that Goose didn't hesitate at all. Kotalik was closer and could have gone right after OV, but he just threw up his hands. Gaustad and Mair went right to work.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I recall Goose dropping the gloves and punching Ovechkin right away after the hit...

Goose did go after Ovechkin, and Mair went after Muir ... just because.

 

Corp, I agree with you to a point ... I do agree the sideshow aspect is the difference, like I said, if these guys skated a regular shift and had a real reason to get mad at each other, it would be different.

However, and I'm not saying I like the instigator rule, but to say if they got rid of it things would change ... I am not so sure. It's supposed to be a deterrant, but in the Ovechkin-Briere case Gaustad DID go after the offender and Mair went after someone ... when Neil hit Drury, Stafford went after him IMMEDIATELY. I think the players are still willing to step up and take the misconduct and possible suspension if someone is hit in a dirty way ... the problem is that if it's just yoru average "That guy is pissing me off and we need a spark" deal, it has become second nature for most guys to think "That's Petey's job." or whatever ... even if they eliminated the instigator rule, I don't think that would change.

[Bmwolf21]

Not to jump in super late or anything, but I think that the peters fighting style has nothing to do with the size of the fighers, Newtons involved in a punching motion, or the $$ involved. It has everything to do with emotions. The rules have all but eliminated the enforcer role. The fighting now is just a sideshow. Take for example, two fights that peters has gotten into.

Sorry, Corp, I can't agree that his fighting style has nothing to do with fear of getting hurt. That's the core of the whole issue, and is fed by the size of the other fighters, fear of losing their career, etc. If you accept the premise that the standard fight has become a sideshow, then why would Peters be using his dance routine to avoid getting hit? The reason is fear. There is a good YouTube video where Keith Jones interviewed Rayzor and a couple other enforcers and they all talked about how they deal with overwhelming fear every time they get ready to drop the gloves, how much they've been hurt, etc.

 

I don't disagree about the change in fight styles when he's pissed off or running on pure emotion and that the rules have completely limited their role, but to say that fear doesn't play a major role in the way he fights is silly, IMO.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Sorry, Corp, I can't agree that his fighting style has nothing to do with fear of getting hurt. That's the core of the whole issue, and is fed by the size of the other fighters, fear of losing their career, etc. If you accept the premise that the standard fight has become a sideshow, then why would Peters be using his dance routine to avoid getting hit? The reason is fear. There is a good YouTube video where Keith Jones interviewed Rayzor and a couple other enforcers and they all talked about how they deal with overwhelming fear every time they get ready to drop the gloves, how much they've been hurt, etc.

 

I don't disagree about the change in fight styles when he's pissed off or running on pure emotion and that the rules have completely limited their role, but to say that fear doesn't play a major role in the way he fights is silly, IMO.

 

Again, if all that is true, then he's the wrong guy for the job. Fear has always been a part of it, it's the whole base emotion behind intimidation, right? If no one was afraid in the old days, these guys would not have had jobs then, either. It has always been about who can overcome the fear and stand up for their teammates.

And if your theory is correct, and we accept the premise that guys are always going to keep getting bigger and stronger, do we come to a point where no one fights because everyone hits too hard? Somehow I doubt it.

 

So I think it is a combination of what both of you guys are saying ... fear may be the reason for Peters' weak style, but there are guys out there who are nuts and not afraid, and their fighting is still a sideshow because they don't play enough to get really frustrated and pissed.

[Bmwolf21]

Again, if all that is true, then he's the wrong guy for the job. Fear has always been a part of it, it's the whole base emotion behind intimidation, right? If no one was afraid in the old days, these guys would not have had jobs then, either. It has always been about who can overcome the fear and stand up for their teammates.

And if your theory is correct, and we accept the premise that guys are always going to keep getting bigger and stronger, do we come to a point where no one fights because everyone hits too hard? Somehow I doubt it.

 

So I think it is a combination of what both of you guys are saying ... fear may be the reason for Peters' weak style, but there are guys out there who are nuts and not afraid, and their fighting is still a sideshow because they don't play enough to get really frustrated and pissed.

If you would have just posted your last paragraph I would have agreed and it probably would have ended the conversation.

 

But I think you're confusing Peters' ineffective style due to fear with taking a pragmatic approach to self-preservation -- trying to limit how much physical damage they take. If my job is a essentially unnecessary but very dangerous, why would I want to get hurt in the process? Why not put on a big show, make it look like you are useful and contributing all while trying to limit your chances of getting hurt?

 

I'm not even going to address the ridiculous straw man -- that eventually no one will fight because guys are going to be too big-- because it's absurd.

[Corp000085]

I knew that someone went after AO during that game, but i was actually there and had seats that obstructed my view of the play in the corner (they were low and the glass reflection obstructed my view). If there weren't so many stupid rules though, Gaustad would have broken his face

[BetweenThePipes00]

If you would have just posted your last paragraph I would have agreed and it probably would have ended the conversation.

 

But I think you're confusing Peters' ineffective style due to fear with taking a pragmatic approach to self-preservation -- trying to limit how much physical damage they take. If my job is a essentially unnecessary but very dangerous, why would I want to get hurt in the process? Why not put on a big show, make it look like you are useful and contributing all while trying to limit your chances of getting hurt?

 

I'm not even going to address the ridiculous straw man -- that eventually no one will fight because guys are going to be too big-- because it's absurd.

Yeah it's absurd, that's why i said "somehow I doubt it." So if we agree that fighting is NEVER going away, then there has to be a limit to your "guys hit too hard" theory. Either someone is going to be fearless enough to do the job the way it is supposed to be done or, as you say, they will keep fighting but the style will keep moving toward "self-preservation" ... just put on a big show ... but the show keeps getting smaller and smaller; it's not a big show if they are afraid to get hit.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I am sure a lot of these guys are just trying to put on a show and not get hurt ... my point is if these guys whose job description is "NHL tough guy" are just going to "try to be useful and contributing all while trying to limit your chances of getting hurt," then they are the wrong guys for THAT job. At least on my team if I had a say.

 

I knew that someone went after AO during that game, but i was actually there and had seats that obstructed my view of the play in the corner (they were low and the glass reflection obstructed my view). If there weren't so many stupid rules though, Gaustad would have broken his face

Come on, that's just not true, watch the video ... 2 officials and Kelpis all came to OV's defense, it had nothing to do with the rules ... Gaustad was going after him full bore, consequences be damned, he just never goty the chance to hit him more than once. He did not pull up because he was afraid of any rules.