JohnC
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Attached is a link that lists Vegas's top prospects in their system. If Krebs, Tuch and another one of their higher end prospects are included in a trade I'm fine with it. An interesting aside is that Brendan Brisson, one of their higher rated prospects, will be playing at Mich Univ. next season. If this deal turned out to be Krebs, Elvenes and Tuch I'm in. If Vegas players have to be included on top of the three I listed because of Vegas cap reasons then I still say make the deal.
https://puckprose.com/2020/10/28/vegas-golden-knights-top-8-prospects-worth-getting-excited-about/
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2 minutes ago, inkman said:
I see no need to stick up for that hack.
Hacks are not always wrong. Whether one is a hack or recognized in one's field when you see an ugly duckling you see an ugly duckling.
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50 minutes ago, Digger said:
Hamilton is saying that because they signed Dell to a 2 way contract. I don't think he has any more insight than that.
I agree that we should be planning on bringing in another veteran that can play. Goaltending has been an issue for us and we are much worse on paper right now than we have been in past years. I do support having Anderson but it looks like a poor plan right now without another capable goaltender.
The difference between having capable goaltending instead of incapable goaltending was starkly evident when Ullmark played last year. When he played the team not only matched up but it won a good share of games. When option B had to be counted on the team stood no chance. There were so many occasions when after Hutton let in a soft goal you can see the deflation in the players. I'm just hoping another goaltender will be brought in to give support to the rest of the lineup.
3 minutes ago, inkman said:Paul never has any insight ever. Kinda strange since he has more access to the team than any media member.
When you see the same deficiencies for years you don't need much insight. What you see is what you see. Nothing new is nothing new.
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10 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:
Clearly you've missed everything that has happened to him and his family
He and his family are very much aware of what their family has experienced. And having gone through their experiences he and his wife made the mutual decision to play another season in Buffalo. I'm confident that they know better what is right for them and their family than an outside busybody. MYOB!
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1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:
Yes just like Kyle won't Retire when his family has asked him repeatedly please do it .
I would like players to leave the game healthy and not have any side effects
Sorry for Triggering you
And it's ( Mind Your Own Business)
Kyle doesn't need you to give him advice as whether to play or retire. That's his decision.
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1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:
He's made over 40 million dollars he should be good for life
Why does it bother you that a player makes a decision that he feels is in his best interest? He's doing what he wants to do. It's his business and should be no concern of yours. In other words (MYOB) i.e. shorthand for MY YOUR OWN BUSINESS. He doesn't tell you what to do and you shouldn't tell him what to do.
He will make the roster if he earns it. If he isn't good enough he will be back living in Florida.
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Just now, inkman said:
Suspicious of his methods. UPL most likely needs some work before thanking the reigns in Buffalo. If Adams throws him to the wolves, it will make me question a lot of his decisions.
What if Adams throws UPL to the wolves and he does well? And if Adams throws UPL to the wolves and he falters, then why would that be so catastrophic? He could use that hardship experience to benefit him even when he gets sent back down to the AHL.
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Paul Hamilton was on WGR on the morning show talking about the goaltending situation. He said that the Sabres are going to give UPL a chance to earn a roster spot in training camp with Anderson being the backup and mentor. It's probably more likely that UPL will start off in Rochester and then get a call-up. My leaning is toward bringing in another goalie and not rush UPL. Getting a lot of playing time in the AHL helped Mitts and Thompson be better prepared when they were moved up the ranks.
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2 minutes ago, kas23 said:
If traded (keys words), the NMC caps whatever assets we would potentially receive though. If a GM of a bottom dweller offers us all the gold in the kingdom for Jack, all Jack has to say is no. Same goes for any other team that is not a perennial Cup contender. The true Cup contenders will know this and use it to their advantage. Plus, they are likely to already up against the cap, so the suiters will diminish considerably.
The only recourse KA will have is to then keep him, which I guess is better than getting a bag of pucks and a conditional 3rd rounder from the Rags. Still, the NMC will diminish the possibility of getting a decent return if traded. If Jack proves himself to be back to his normal self over the next season, the offers will have to become much richer than what they are today.
KA is driving the bus. If a future deal is declined by Jack when there are better offers then unless an offer arises to an acceptable return (no matter who is making the offer) then you keep him. No one is going to force the GM to make a deal that he doesn't want to make.
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1 hour ago, SJSabres Fan said:
Would that imply not taking a deal now?
Absolutely. There needs to be an acceptable range of return. If that threshold isn't met then keep him until there are better opportunities. I have never deviated from that stance.
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4 minutes ago, SJSabres Fan said:
I guess my question is as you lower the asking price, how important is the return in KA’s plan? And does it get to the point where there’s not much difference in trading an injured Jack Eichel without a nmc vs a healthy Jack Eichel with a nmc.
With respect to Jack's NMC I don't give a dam about it. When the time comes for the clause to kick in it doesn't matter whether he refuses to go to a particular team. Because if that is the case then he is kept.
The GM's obligation is to act in the team's interest. That takes primacy over the player's interest.
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1 hour ago, dudacek said:
The only difference is that the surgery Jack wants has not been tried on an NHL player.
Jack wants that surgery, primarily, because he wants to accelerate his recovery time; it is a known factor
Everything else in your post is based on the twin suppositions that Jack is getting the surgery he wants and the acquiring team is not comfortable with the risk - an extremely unlikely combination.
No team would be willing to trade for Jack Eichel and his $50 million contract under those circumstances, no matter the price, and they wouldn’t be making offers.
My general supposition is simple. Because of his health situation his trade value for now is diminished. The level of diminishment as I see it is greater than what you perceive it to be. And this is diminishment is reflected in the unwillingness of teams to come near to what the Sabre organization wants. With that realization I'm more willing than some are to lower the asking price.
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Just now, LGR4GM said:
There's risk and question trading for any player and any player who has surgery. Idk why we are debating that. Also there is 0 indication Eichel will not play next year. If teams don't want the risk and won't pay up, don't trade him, it is that simple.
I agree with the highlighted segment. I have stated that position. Where I fundamentally disagree with you is that I would be willing to deal him if an offer was reasonable. Obviously, my expected return is less than yours.
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1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:
I am going to start using "I'm am aware" when you tell me things about prospects I already know.
Outcomes for both neck surgeries are usually good. idk what a "crash sport" is but if you mean a contact sport than sure, Eichel will be involved in contact with other players. That still does not lower his value below Seth Jones.
Apparently based on the reported offers the injured Jack value is less than Jones's value. If completely healthy there is no question that Jack has more market value. But in this situation that is not the case.
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17 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:
Nice strawman.
His skill and play style doesn’t overcome his size. He will score, but always be a negative overall
He played last year. Because of his inexperience he still has room to improve. But I never got the sense that he was overmatched. Quite the opposite: He was a player that can be a contributor in the NHL.
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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:
Since when? Fusion surgery is a longer recovery and replacement is shorter (in time for the season). No one has said this in the know.
You don't know that Tuch won't have any lingering effects from knee surgery. All surgery presents risks of never getting back to elite form.
I'm aware that the fusion surgery requires a longer recovery and the replacement surgery requires a shorter timeframe. I have not said otherwise. But what makes this outcome tougher to predict is that he will eventually return to the ice playing in a crash sport.
Just a side note: Tuch is having shoulder surgery. That is a common surgery in hockey. The outcomes are usually good.
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14 minutes ago, dudacek said:
So much this. Jack Eichel is playing pickup hockey right now, before his surgery.
Both surgeries being contemplated have a 90 per cent success rate.
Is it possible this could affect his play moving forward? Sure, just like Jake McCabe's knee could affect him in the future, and Marco Rossi's COVID bout and Alex Tuch's shoulder and Linus Ullmark's injury-of-the-month. Didn't stop McCabe and Ullmark from getting long-term contracts, or Rossi and Tuch from being trade targets.
Absolutely no one in the NHL is saying Jack's is a career-threatening injury, only panicky internet posters and wannabe message board GMs.
These surgeries do have a success rate. I have had two back surgeries (aware not exactly the same). A successful surgery for me is different than a successful surgery for a hockey player who plays professionally in a crash sport. The referencing to McCabe's, Ullmark's and Tuch's surgeries are not relatable to Jack's surgery. These aforementioned surgeries are procedures that are not uncommon in hockey. There is usually a standard rehab timetable. That's not the case with Jack's situation. As it stands there hasn't even been agreement in which is the most suitable surgery. And if the surgery he has works out there is no guarantee that even if he can get back on the ice, which I believe he will, will he be able to play at the level he did prior to his injury.
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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:
Seth Jones and pick 32 were traded for pick 11, Boqvist (a first pairing defensive prospect), a first in 2022, and 2nd rounder.
So if we are talking about Eichel for some unknown first in 2022, a 2nd tier prospect, and a cap dump, we aren't in the ballpark.
When Seth Jones was traded for a generous return he was healthy. The team that acquired him knew that next season he would be playing at the high level he had been playing at. That doesn't come close to resembling the Jack situation. As it stands there are no guarantees that Jack will play next year or ever return to his elite form.
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28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:
It would be one extra prospect. Singular, either Dorofeyev OR Korczak.
Tuch just had surgery and is out 6 months if you want to talk major risks. That's an unproven prospect, an unknown 1st round pick, and an injured Tuch for Eichel. That is a bad deal.
That isn't good. Krebs has to hit as a top 6 forward. Maybe Vegas shouldn't be the enemy of a good deal instead of getting Eichel.
I'm aware that Tuch's is going to need six months for recovery and rehab to get back on the ice. He is expected to come back to full health. So I don't see the health risk that you do. That's in contrast to Eichel's injury where there are some legitimate questions whether he will play this season at all. And it should be noted that is not out of the realm that he may never regain the elite form that he previously had.
Of course if the Sabres could get more then I'm all for it. But if they can't attain the higher return then adjusting to the situation and the market isn't an unreasonable approach to take. I understand why you wouldn't want to make the deal that I would find reasonable but I would make the deal if given the opportunity.
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21 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:
My intentions include sacrificing potential draft pick capital to assure solid pieces.
Your offer is literally my bare minimum for an Eichel trade.
If it is a bare minimum then you find it acceptable. Of course I would prefer more but if the minimum is met then I would advocate for a deal. My minimum is that a deal has to include a high end prospect who is capable of being a #1 or #2 center in the not too distant future and plus more pieces. Tuch is a genuine first or second line forward. That would qualify as a very valuable piece to this proposed transaction.
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Just now, LGR4GM said:
You answer the question in paragraph one in paragraph two.
I don't find it a reasonable deal. The 2022 first from Vegas will be something like pick 26-32. It sounds nice being a first rounder but it isn't that impressive. Krebs and Tuch are nice and I like them a lot but do they equal Eichel? Maybe in a few years if Krebs hits and hits hard sure. Tuch we know will be good. Smith is a 1 year cap dump. So essential I am getting a very late 1st, a cap dump (ik Smith has value), a top prospect, and a good roster player. I need another prospect that isn't 3-4 years away in that mix so I want one of Vegas' 2nd tier prospects. Dorofeyev is a Russian in NA so that helps our recent Russians craze or Korczak who is a big RHD which helps our depth there.
I would love to have your adds on. But the Jack we are talking about is currently injured with an uncertain future. He barely played last year and there is a chance that he won't be able to play next year. And if he does return to the ice he may not be the player he once was. The major risk in a transaction isn't on the team shipping out Eichel as it is for the team receiving him.
I understand your position but if the Sabres could make a deal with Vegas that includes Krebs,Tuch and a lower first round pick I would do it. Let's not make perfect be the enemy of the good.
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10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:
I'd need Dorofeyev or Korczak to get this done if that's the deal.
Why would you walk away from the @wookie1 deal if the two players you referenced weren't included? The centerpiece of the deal would be Krebs. He's the essential player in the deal. And if Tuch was in the deal that would make the deal even more appealing. The biggest benefit in such a deal is that Vegas would have to deal with the medical issues and the Sabres would be able move on and start putting the roster pieces together without any distractions.
Make no mistake about what I am suggesting. I'm not advocating trading Jack just to do away with all this commotion. It would be terrific to include one or both of your favored players. But if a reasonable deal is offered without one of them then the Sabres need to seize it and get a fresh start in the non-Eichel era.
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27 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:
I am an attorney among other things.
Is your favorite lawyer movie: My Cousin Vinnie? 🤡
Sabres Identity: Hardworking, Relentless with Speed.
in The Aud Club
Posted
I can appreciate your sentiments on giving full effort. In the NHL that is more of a given than not. However, success is mostly predicated on the level of talent as reflected in the NHL cup winner this year and most years. There are many reasons why the Sabres have struggled for the past half generation. Organizational and staffing turnover without question are contributing factors. But when all is said and done it comes down to talent and depth in the organization to fill in when needed. That's been the primary reason why the Sabres have struggled.
I like you am encouraged with what the GM is doing. But make no mistake the franchise is going through a rebuilding process. If done smartly the process can to an extent be accelerated and the current product made to be more entertaining than a lot of the wretched hockey we have watched over the past number of years. Again, it's mostly about the talent.