Neo
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Posts posted by Neo
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I’ll do my best. See Jonathan Haidt and Moral Foundations Theory. We discussed it here in Politics for nearly a year. Tribal is a word across ethnicities, races and cultures. I am tribal.
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I will adjourn with my F, dishonesty and brass ...
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20 minutes ago, Eleven said:
Well, New York has done a good job so far. Not an A, but a B+ . "Washington," which is your codeword for Trump to avoid censorship (nice try but I'm not taking it anymore), has not. That's an F. And BS it's agnostic and not tribal. Be honest with yourself and with us.
Which tribe did I praise at the expense of the other? I called the two cities/parties/leaders/men dueling banjos where neither had the high ground vis-à-vis the other. If that’s not agnostic, I don’t know what the word means. I can assure you, I hold them in the same regard on this issue.
You’re welcome to substitute names or parties and you’re likely to be correct. It’s hardly a riddle. After you do, though, you’re left with a post that elevated neither at the expense of the other.
I can be no more honest.
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1 minute ago, Eleven said:
Well, New York has done a good job so far. Not an A, but a B+ . "Washington," which is your codeword for Trump to avoid censorship (nice try but I'm not taking it anymore), has not. That's an F.
I wish you graded my papers in college.
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This may go to politics, or not. It’s government, but it’s agnostic and not tribal. Washington vs Albany is Deliverance and Dueling Banjos, to me. The musicians are polar opposites, but neither has the high ground vis-à-vis the other.
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On 7/16/2020 at 10:56 PM, dudacek said:
Is there a sense that more than your health is being challenged, but your way of life?
I think a majority of us are listening to our top public health official and treating her word like that of a trusted personal GP. I think most of us don’t hear a lot of politics in her words and think her agenda is focused on keeping us safe. And generally speaking our politicians on both sides of legislature are following her lead - which, as I said earlier, has been gentle - instead of pushing themselves into the forefront.
Maybe we find it easier to trust because we have had more reason to. Maybe our culture and/or our social support network is more used to prioritizing health, and therefore more suited to this particular situation. Maybe we’ve just got lucky in how the virus manifested.
Your heightened sense of individualism and proaction has served you well in so many areas, but maybe this is a situation that demands patience and bowing to the collective.
I replied to your post, above, but didn’t address your initial question, health vs way of life. Straight to the point, you are.
I am a 59 year old, insulin dependent Type I diabetic. I am 5’ 11” and weigh 215. Any male relative I can remember died of heart disease between ages 48 and 74. I am COVID risk ground zero.
I don’t worry about my health. Why worry? My DNA and cumulative life choices are what they are. I choose to live, not stay alive. Bring it. So far, so good.*
Way of life is a far greater issue to me, and moves me more. Caution - way of life doesn’t mean lifestyle, party and rich food. Way of life, to me, is how I see the world and my tiny role therein. My greatest pain, greatest sadness, arises in the lack of engagement that fuels me. While I have long periods of introversion and reflection, I emerge and engage, engage, engage.
I wasn’t built to self quarantine, virus or not, and I’m not unique. My brain makes me be safe. My heart and gut ache. Imagine my empathy for the similarly constructed and my antipathy for their myopic critics. Raise antipathy to the power of three when the criticism is deduction, debatable in terms of efficacy, subject to change, rooted in chauvinism, delivered by amateurs with moral superiority, and ad hominem. As an aside, deduction is a virtue more often than not. It can be an obstacle in biological science. Time will tell.
If you count illness and casualty only in terms of coffins or ICU beds, you’re missing a much more significant big picture.
*. I got blood test results, today. The physicians on SabreSpace know how thorough the tests are for men in my situation. I’m “green”, everywhere with a current 5.9 A1c. It ain’t easy. I have no complaints. I can’t wait to see my doctor. I’m going to hug the bastard. I’m bending my own curve. It’s all any one of us can do.
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21 hours ago, dudacek said:
Is there a sense that more than your health is being challenged, but your way of life?
I think a majority of us are listening to our top public health official and treating her word like that of a trusted personal GP. I think most of us don’t hear a lot of politics in her words and think her agenda is focused on keeping us safe. And generally speaking our politicians on both sides of legislature are following her lead - which, as I said earlier, has been gentle - instead of pushing themselves into the forefront.
Maybe we find it easier to trust because we have had more reason to. Maybe our culture and/or our social support network is more used to prioritizing health, and therefore more suited to this particular situation. Maybe we’ve just got lucky in how the virus manifested.
Your heightened sense of individualism and proaction has served you well in so many areas, but maybe this is a situation that demands patience and bowing to the collective.
That’s the right point. For the record, there’s not a collective view I’ve not personally bowed to. My ire is aroused when one group disparages those with different opinions. I’m a safe conformist, if you allow for working with a mask and dining out with distancing to be considered safe. My behavior is within one standard deviation of any policy expert. I suspect most everyone here is similarly situated. I’ll not call others, as smart as me and as ethical as me, names because they behave differently, live somewhere else, or vote differently. There aren’t many things I disagree with in terms of suggested behavior. But, I’m smart enough to know others aren’t dumb. I respect their views no less than mine. Given the total cluster flack this is with regard to expected outcome, “certainty” is a baseless vanity. Be safe, make decisions, be mindful of others who also make decisions ... Respect me and I’ll respect you. Tell me you’ve got it figured out, and the clueless don’t, well .... I get fidgety.
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1 hour ago, dudacek said:
I’m not sure if what I read is actually representative of what most of you are living.
But every conversation Americans seem to be having about COVD-19 is political.
Up here, it's kinda like “The doc said this, guess I better do what the doctor ordered” and most of what the doctor ordered has been more about suggestions than rigidly enforced rules.
I’m not saying we’re without the “no one tells me...” or “it’s all a conspiracy types...” but they’re mostly random Facebook posters, not real people I’m dealing with in person.
I don’t think I’m the blackest pot or kettle, but I’m certainly a cooking vessel. Viruses infect more than lungs.
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You’re on .... I had a September trip to NYC planned. Mrs. Neo and I were flying in to visit her girlfriends and their husbands. We were going to see David Byrne at the Hudson Theater. I don’t know the status of the trip. My plan was to find you and go out with you and your brother. You described his work while I watched The Met on quarantine zoom. Or was it Bocelli? Or both?
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I’ve got to get ready for work! If you have time, email me the essential jobs and the ‘need to work’ roles. Careful where you put the college janitor and cafeteria worker. No Professor, no class, no tacos, no plastic forks.
1 minute ago, SwampD said:We are all buying her diapers, gladly. The stimulus checks have kept us all humming along. The economic impacts are scary, but we’ll get through this. I kinda think that those who have the most are scared the most.
And there are still plenty of people who think it’s a hoax.
HUMMING ALONG!
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Who thinks COVID’s a hoax? Not I. Some think the moon landing is a hoax. You can believe it’s real and still have to pay the bills. No one I mentioned thinks it’s a hoax.
I respect your choice to work. Me too.
Office work is nice, if you got it. I do. Those who don’t have offices have the real choices to make. How long should Pepper stay home and who’s buying her kid’s diapers? Can you socially distance in a sweaty garage, under hoods, sharing tools? I dunno.
The banks weren’t the target of my sympathy. I was thinking of the defeated dad, slumped on the sofa, his face in his hands .. and his kids asking “Mom, what’s wrong?”
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1 hour ago, Weave said:
Yes. To all of this post.
Apparently I have struck a nerve. I''ve struggled with how I want to respond. I like and respect you and mean no ill will. You assumed Eleven's intentions were to keep "his people" healthy. The message was more simple than that, "keep as many as you can healthy". Rather than consider that maybe the response was more general in nature you've spent the ensuing weeks throwing tribalism and righteous around as thinly veiled slurs, all the while being self righteous yourself. Noone meant to insult or judge or disparage. It was all well meaning advice with society as a whole in mind that has lead to this eloquent, simmering perturbation.
Regarding that article, or the portions of it you excerpted anyway...... my take is that professor, like so many others, are perceiving risk as an inward hazard, when it is really an outward hazard. The message that is trying to be sent is not "protect yourself". It is "protect others". I suppose you can make a case that his profession may be essential and therefore the risk may be justifiable, but I'm not convinced given the ability to perform his functions remotely. He's portraying his plight as that of a heroic victim. The idea is to prevent him from turning his students into heroic victims.
Well, you didn’t strike a nerve as that phrase is traditionally used. I acknowledged - I can over think. My subsequent references were designed to point out that over thinking wasn’t required in that particular instance and that I’m not alone when I do over think. Candidly, I smiled when you wrote it.
I can’t comment on what you believe I was trying to say in response to what you believe someone else was trying to say. That’s an equation with too many variables for me to solve.
I would use the phrase “person willing to freely assemble with others willing to freely assemble” instead of “heroic victim”. I leave it there because I have no expertise, no vision of how and when this ends, that suggests one set of choices is better than another. No one’s shown me a vision, either. I thirst and am unable to make a less self righteous statement than that.
Banks released earnings, today. They’re prepared for tsunamis of loss. Each loss is a family, home, health care, day care, and retirement. It’s not the banks that are screwed.
You don’t want people working? What’s the end game and when does it arrive? I hear what you don’t want. What do you want, how long will you wait, at what cost to families, and how will you know when you’re finished?
In the meantime, I’m going to work tomorrow. I’ll wear my mask, of course. I’m having lunch at Ocean Prime. My server for years, Pepper, won’t be there. She moved back home in May, out of work and unable to afford living on her own. I hope she’s well. I now count eight servers, friends, who are gone. Some were moms and dads. On my way home, I’ll drop off dry cleaning with Sandy or Brenda. They’re both still working, “thank God” as they say. The drive will be comfortable because Tom at Firestone recharged my air conditioning last weekend. His bays were packed.
Heroic victims? I’m not sure they’d agree with your assessment. They seem to be people who want to live and work when they don’t see an alternative. I’m not getting an anti-intellectual, selfish, vibe from Brenda or Sandy. Maybe I’m insensitive.
I have no quarrel with those who choose to stay home. Twenty percent of my team does. Best wishes, total respect.
Lastly, if you see, sense or feel any ‘heroic victim” in the writing, you’ve not read the piece you’re discussing. I like and respect you, too. ?
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28 minutes ago, carpandean said:
Unless a poster has a WSJ subscription, they can't read it. Sounds interesting, but ...
Usually available later in the day, or next day.
Opens:
Georgetown University has given all its faculty, including me, the option to teach in the classroom or remotely via computer during the fall semester. Even though my age places me in the high-risk category, I’ve elected to teach in person. I feel I have an obligation to do so.
Continues:
For the past four months, I have watched people younger than myself risk infection for my benefit. People who are often the age of my students have kept grocery stores open for me, cooked and delivered food to my home, worked in warehouses, loaded and driven trucks to deliver packages to me, worked in meat-processing plants and other links in the supply chain to ensure that I have what I need for a comfortable life, and worked in hospitals so that I can get treatment if I get sick. I would feel ungenerous if I were unwilling to run some risk of infection myself to provide my services to them.
Closes:
I understand why my colleagues, especially those in high-risk categories, would choose to teach remotely. My comments reflect only my own evaluation of risks and rewards and are not intended as criticism of those who’ve made a contrary decision. But when classes start up again in August, I will be at the podium, ready to look my students in the eye, which is all that will be visible above their masks, and get back to work.
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Rational. Not tribal. Not righteous.
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8 minutes ago, SwampD said:
I was unable to read that article. Pretty sure Weave was reacting to your post and not the article.
Just because you don't say things directly, doesn't mean that you don't say them. We're too smart to realize that you're too smart to not know what you are doing. Many a post has had to be moved because you didn't say something that you said.
A good poster once suggested I over think. Get back to me after you’ve read the article.
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An opinion, rational and human, without chauvinism, tribalism and self righteousness. Gracious and reasonable. A university professor and lawyer ... ethics and torts!. Read away. I’ll ponder how this thoughtful man survives the academy.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-ill-be-on-campus-this-fall-11594661493?mod=hp_opin_pos_2
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On 7/8/2020 at 3:14 PM, New Scotland (NS) said:
1979/80 probably was the best all round Sabre team ever. 2005/06 was a very close second. I have had this debate with myself many times. I always win the debate.
Fun fact from that season. Perreault, Martin, Luce, Gare, Ramsay, D Smith, Seiling, McKegney, Van Boxmeer, Dunn, Schoenfeld, Hajt, and Playfair missed 14 games, total. Thirteen players.
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8 hours ago, PASabreFan said:
Awesome ....
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Robert Gordon Orr, of Parry Sound, Ontario
Marcel Dionne
Yvonne Cournoyer
Börje Salming
Mark Messier
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22 minutes ago, gilbert11 said:
Just watched NHL Network’s Countdown show which showed their list of the top 25 lines of All-Time.
I was pleasantly surprised to see the French Connection line as # 2. That’s really saying something with the history of the NHL. Those of us that got to see them play were truly blessed.
#1 was Howe, Abel, Lindsay.
Notable was Gretzky, Kurri Tikanen #7. You’d think the AllTime leading scorer and one of the best goal scorers of his time would be higher.
My memories .... In no particular order ... other than The French Connection .. and including the histories I read as a boy.
GAG Line
KLM LINE
The Production Line
The ***** Line
The Legion of Doom
The Triple Crown Lime
Edit ..... LOL at the forced edit .....German Cabbage! Milt Schmidt, Bobby Bauer and Woody Dumart. I wonder what they’d say if they new we could no longer reference them.
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15 hours ago, Claude_Verret said:
Kind of. There is certainly data out there in controlled lab environments that show that masks work to control the spread of virus. Im more saying that even knowing about this data, if you observe a rise in cases around the same time you see people not following recommended guidelines and you immediately pin that rise on the ignoring of guidelines, then that's unscientific reasoning and it ignores many of the other variables that could be contributing, like the study that I linked to above. Im not going to even pretend to be an epidemiologist, so I don't know how or if they even can tease out something like mask use and its impact from the data being gathered. The bottom line is that we can use the public health measures as best we can to get a handle on this thing, but the virus itself has a say in all of this as well.
John Barry ... deduced from observation. Justified leeches for centuries.
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I just finished John Berry's "The Great Influenza". What a fascinating book. He writes of the Pandemic Spanish* Flu (that originated in Kansas). Tour de force is an overused description when describing arts and letters, so I'm hesitant to use it when describing this book to others. It was a wildly entertaining and informative ride. The book took me through history and around the world as experimentation and the scientific method replaced observation and deduction as sources for advancing medicine. Today, I know as much about epidemiology and the behavior of germs as I ever will, which speaks more to my limitations than to my accomplishments. Read it.
I see us discussing and debating three things, all the while swimming in the slimy pool that is politics and tribalism.
1) We will play dodge ball with the virus and hope something good happens before we're dead or living in the stone age.
2) We will be saved by a brilliant, tireless, and lucky scientist who finds a cure.
3) We will live modified lives until the virus mutates itself away.
We all want number 2. We're deciding if we prefer choice 1 or choice 3 in the meantime. I'm an anti-intellectual individualist who sees choice 3 > choice 1.
Lightbulb moment. Today's novel corona virus is not yesterday's, and tomorrow's will not be today's.
In true Ground Hog Day film fashion, the informed, rational and reasonable Claude pops his head in and gets a brick between the eyes. Wawrow was half right. He simply left out the charming and informative side of so many conversations.
I posted +/- one week ago about my plans to visit New York in July. I think some people read complaint or inconvenience into my post. Life's good. I have no complaints and it's hard to make me feel inconvenienced. I was angry, but the source of my anger was the empty confidence and cynical posturing that is endemic (pun intended) in our leadership and the tribalism that causes us to echo same without making a case. One good poster suggested I was over thinking. I can certainly over think. I'm just not sure my post required very much wattage in this particular instance. Another good poster suggested I was merely trying to follow the rules as they were announced. He was right. I called, I asked, and ....
... I surrendered.
I hosted a ZOOM meeting with my family on Sunday night. My first time as HOST; I am so modern. I told them I would not be coming up in July. There are some truly important family events we were to celebrate together. I have a son who's graduating from UB, at age 30, with a wife and five kids, after six years in the United States Navy, working full time nights and weekends and going to college during the day. I have in laws in their mid eighties celebrating a wedding anniversary. I'm not sure how many they have left. On July 15, my oldest daughter and her fiancé will decide whether or not to have a September wedding. For those reading this ... I am not complaining or inconvenienced. I am sad. I'm also charging ahead and making new plans. I am a virus, mutating every day.
I made the decision based on the best information I have and my assessment of caused and assumed risk. It's the same process I use when I get into a car or swing a golf club. The equations, the variables, the expected values and the consequences are all different, of course. My daughter's a Type 1 diabetic. So am I. My in-laws are elderly. The political environment is unstable. Easy call, border rules and curve-buster chest swelling both irrelevant.
If you tell me anybody not called doctor, or anyone who lives in one state and not another, speaks with more wisdom than I do ... well, have at it, you brilliant conformist, you!
PS .... PA, you mentioned something about a punch and a kiss ... well, some of my most memorable evenings involved both, oh, so long ago.
* The flu was initially spread by US Soldiers going abroad in WWI. Spain was neutral, and its press was free. Warring nations censored the press and deliberately under reported the flu. It would expose a vulnerability. The world became aware of the illness on a grand scale when Spanish papers published stories about symptoms, spread and death. Oh, and Woodrow Wilson ... near ground zero of another plague that still stalks the world, today.
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I am happy to see Federalists being born!
My inquiry was to learn NYS’s wishes in order to be respectful. I can’t wait to see the “figured out” version. There will never be one. There can never be one. BUILD THAT WALL, BUILD THAT WALL! Oh, the ironies. Xenophobes, I say. icrackmeup.
I am inspired, so further to the mention of things playing themselves out with different states and different choices. Someone once mentioned federal pandemic bailouts in the context of states not paying their fair share. I’ll stay home. NYS can fund its losses. Am I following along? If you want my earnings, I get to have a Ted’s Hot Dog.
The difference between a New Yorker and a Floridian matters not to me in this circumstance. The duty to be courteous doesn’t wax or wane situationally or geographically. How you define courtesy varies person to person, state boarders being irrelevant. There is no self appointed spokesperson I recognize on behalf of NYS. I am not a spokesperson for Florida. In the words of the great philosopher, “a man’s gotta recognize his limitations.”
I felt no “Floridian” pride when more people were dying elsewhere. I didn’t look to Tallahassee and see anyone who was a super-competent manager. New York wasn’t dumber two months ago and it isn’t smarter, today.
There is a fascinating conversation to be had. It’s about human nature, assumption of risk, communal living and utility. There are three hundred and thirty million views in the US. Most are modified by the hour. I don’t look to Albany, or Tallahassee, or Washington with any more confidence than I look into the mirror. I certainly haven’t been inspired by anyone in those cities during the pandemic. I understand the “my guy got it right, your guy got it wrong” tribal instincts. I understand those instincts like I understand a wart or a rash.
There are New Yorkers who don’t want me to visit. There are New Yorkers, with equal standing and bona fides, who do want me to visit. Good conversations to have unencumbered by tribalism and parochialism. Who here claims to be expert enough to advise? I am not.
Now, lastly, and with no cynicism, snark or rhetorical flourish .... my NYS family includes my closest kin across four generations. My wife is there and has been for weeks. The difference in pandemic lifestyle, and point of view, is remarkable to me as we describe daily events. Perhaps this is a great Federalist moment.
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COVID-19
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Of course I do. What an absurd question to ask. Which, of course, you know ...
And the hissy fit turns maudlin, from the vapors to the angst.