Adelphia hypocracy

[Taro T]

Does anyone else see anything wrong with Adelphia spending money to advertise during Sabres games when they killed Empire because they didn't want to have to pay a fee back to the prospective new owners to show Empire on Criminal Owned Network (CON)?

 

(Not that I'm bitter or anything!)

[Saber61]

yea something about that massive adelphia booth in the HSBC Arena concourse just doesn't seem right anymore... they need to vacate that place and quick... no one ever goes in there anyway.

[Eleven]

I see this type of remark from time to time, and while I understand the anger, I also understand why Empire was dissolved. The best deal Adelphia could get (for selling Empire) would have netted Adelphia money for a two-year period, and thereafter would have actually cost Adelphia in fees. No bankruptcy judge in his/her right mind was going to approve that.

 

The cable company itself probably had few choices in the matter.

 

I can understand criticism levelled towards the Rigases for what they did to people's stock in that company and to this city (thanks for the dream of a corporate HQ; we'll file it under "g" for Goldome or "s" for "Big Steel"), and I also understand the criticism of Adelphia for treating their customers the way they do (but that's nationwide and not just here).

 

But misplaced is any blame on the current Adelphia directorship for "ditching" the Sabres or Empire. The Rigases had to divest themselves of interests in the Sabres, and I am so happy that the team is still here. Any Chapter 11 judge never would approve a deal such as that described above for Empire, and that was the best bid that Adelphia got for Empire. A casualty: thousands of fans that live here and/or used to watch Empire on satellite. But the goal of the law is to try to pay off creditors (some of whom may be you, unknowingly in your 401(k) plans & such). Next?when it actually happens, which is almost never?the law tries to pay off innocent stockholders (again, some of whom may be you). The goal is not to protect sports fans, whom I doubt Congress contemplated when it created the bankruptcy laws. Sux for us in this instance, but that's that.

 

Anyway, I do wish it was different.

[Knightrider]

The main problem was that Adelphia owned and distributed the Sabres telecasts and radiocasts. We got used to services that were not economically prudent (i.e., Empire, and WNSA). We forget Adelphia was the company that gave it to us, in the first place.

 

There isn't a politics subforum (although there is the a link to the one one TSW), but it is analagous to welfare or social security, or national health care. All three are nice, but, once they given out, they can bankrupt a government because no one wants to be one to say that we can't really afford this. If only we held representitives of our government to the same standards that we do our business executives. Of course, that would mean most of both of the major parties would be sharing a cells with the Rigas's.

 

We are very lucky that the Sabres still exist and didn't go the way of Empire.

[Taro T]

I see this type of remark from time to time, and while I understand the anger, I also understand why Empire was dissolved.  The best deal Adelphia could get (for selling Empire) would have netted Adelphia money for a two-year period, and thereafter would have actually cost Adelphia in fees.  No bankruptcy judge in his/her right mind was going to approve that.

 

The cable company itself probably had few choices in the matter.

 

I can understand criticism levelled towards the Rigases for what they did to people's stock in that company and to this city (thanks for the dream of a corporate HQ; we'll file it under "g" for Goldome or "s" for "Big Steel"), and I also understand the criticism of Adelphia for treating their customers the way they do (but that's nationwide and not just here).

 

But misplaced is any blame on the current Adelphia directorship for "ditching" the Sabres or Empire.  The Rigases had to divest themselves of interests in the Sabres, and I am so happy that the team is still here.  Any Chapter 11 judge never would approve a deal such as that described above for Empire, and that was the best bid that Adelphia got for Empire.  A casualty:  thousands of fans that live here and/or used to watch Empire on satellite.  But the goal of the law is to try to pay off creditors (some of whom may be you, unknowingly in your 401(k) plans & such).  Next?when it actually happens, which is almost never?the law tries to pay off innocent stockholders (again, some of whom may be you).  The goal is not to protect sports fans, whom I doubt Congress contemplated when it created the bankruptcy laws.  Sux for us in this instance, but that's that.

 

Anyway, I do wish it was different.

Do you have any links to what the offer was? I remember seeing in the News last spring/summer that the fees would have overwhelmed the upfront payment in something more like 5 years, not 2. If that's the case, considering the fact that the company was in bankruptcy and the discount rate for those future costs should have been fairly high, I have serious reservations about the claim that Adelphia would have lost money in the deal.

 

I also do not agree that no bankruptcy judge would have approved the deal. You are correct in that the judge wants to make sure Creditors get paid. Having money upfront today allows creditors to get paid. Having money 2-5 years down the road does not insure that creditors will get paid. If you are correct and there is a net undiscounted outflow in 2 years, then the stockholders would be at risk; not the creditors. The creditors come first in bankruptcy.

 

I also doubt that the Cable Company's executives that reviewed the bid placed any value on the "goodwill" that would have been generated by keeping Empire functional. While strictly correct from an accounting point of view, it could very well have cost stakeholders (creditors and shareholders) a lot of money as there are now a lot of individuals such as myself who have no intention of ever using a product associated with that cable conglomerate again. Losing customers and net long term sales does not increase value.

[Taro T]

The main problem was that Adelphia owned and distributed the Sabres telecasts and radiocasts.  We got used to services that were not economically prudent (i.e., Empire, and WNSA).  We forget Adelphia was the company that gave it to us, in the first place. 

 

There isn't a politics subforum (although there is the a link to the one one TSW), but it is analagous to welfare or social security, or national health care.  All three are nice, but, once they given out, they can bankrupt a government because no one wants to be one to say that we can't really afford this.  If only we held representitives of our government to the same standards that we do our business executives.  Of course, that would mean most of both of the major parties would be sharing a cells with the Rigas's.

 

We are very lucky that the Sabres still exist and didn't go the way of Empire.

When Adelphia went to bankruptcy they had to generate immediate cash. They did this through selling off assets such as entire cable systems and WNSA. They didn't sell the assets because they were losing money necessarily, they sold them because they had obligations due that they could not meet with their existing cashflow and because their debt ratios were far too high to be in compliance with the terms of their existing loans.

 

I have not seen Adelphia's books, so I can't verify nor deny whether Empire or WNSA were "economically prudent", but I have to assume that they were. Adelphia kept Empire around for many years and WNSA had very high ratings (better than GR's at the time). If Adelphia was losing money on them they would have dumped them long ago.

 

Heck, the whole reason Adelphia bought the Sabres was that it made economic sense. The money the Sabres lost was less than the money that Adelphia made through Empire (that from an interview of Rigas in the Buffalo news many years ago, and no unfortunately I don't have a link to it). Also, Empire would have been essentially worthless without the Sabres, so Rigas helped keep the Sabres afloat in the early '90's and then he took them over in the late '90's.

 

I will agree with you that we are fortunate to still have the Sabres but do not agree that the only reason Empire and WNSA existed was to provide a charitable contribution to the citizens (and displaced citizens) of WNY. The Rigases weren't that magnanimous.

[deluca67]

When Adelphia went to bankruptcy they had to generate immediate cash. They did this through selling off assets such as entire cable systems and WNSA. They didn't sell the assets because they were losing money necessarily, they sold them because they had obligations due that they could not meet with their existing cashflow and because their debt ratios were far too high to be in compliance with the terms of their existing loans.

 

I have not seen Adelphia's books, so I can't verify nor deny whether Empire or WNSA were "economically prudent", but I have to assume that they were. Adelphia kept Empire around for many years and WNSA had very high ratings (better than GR's at the time). If Adelphia was losing money on them they would have dumped them long ago.

 

Heck, the whole reason Adelphia bought the Sabres was that it made economic sense. The money the Sabres lost was less than the money that Adelphia made through Empire (that from an interview of Rigas in the Buffalo news many years ago, and no unfortunately I don't have a link to it). Also, Empire would have been essentially worthless without the Sabres, so Rigas helped keep the Sabres afloat in the early '90's and then he took them over in the late '90's.

 

I will agree with you that we are fortunate to still have the Sabres but do not agree that the only reason Empire and WNSA existed was to provide a charitable contribution to the citizens (and displaced citizens) of WNY. The Rigases weren't that magnanimous.

This all brings up a sore point.

 

WNSA made money. I don't care about the ins and outs of the business workings. Why hasn't anyone started up a second sports radio station. WGR is a bad joke. What they have done to Howard Simon and Mike Schoop is sad. These guys could talk some serious sports. But they never get the chance. With guys like Jeremy White clowning up the air waves you can't get any real sports talk anymore.

 

Pergament nailed it last Saturday. It used to be 'Sports Talk For Smart People'. Now it's just "Kiss the Sabres A$$ because we have a contract with them and drill the Bills because we don't with them".

 

I guess pride is just another five letter word :(

[Knightrider]

When Adelphia went to bankruptcy they had to generate immediate cash. They did this through selling off assets such as entire cable systems and WNSA. They didn't sell the assets because they were losing money necessarily, they sold them because they had obligations due that they could not meet with their existing cashflow and because their debt ratios were far too high to be in compliance with the terms of their existing loans.

 

I have not seen Adelphia's books, so I can't verify nor deny whether Empire or WNSA were "economically prudent", but I have to assume that they were. Adelphia kept Empire around for many years and WNSA had very high ratings (better than GR's at the time). If Adelphia was losing money on them they would have dumped them long ago.

 

Heck, the whole reason Adelphia bought the Sabres was that it made economic sense. The money the Sabres lost was less than the money that Adelphia made through Empire (that from an interview of Rigas in the Buffalo news many years ago, and no unfortunately I don't have a link to it). Also, Empire would have been essentially worthless without the Sabres, so Rigas helped keep the Sabres afloat in the early '90's and then he took them over in the late '90's.

 

I will agree with you that we are fortunate to still have the Sabres but do not agree that the only reason Empire and WNSA existed was to provide a charitable contribution to the citizens (and displaced citizens) of WNY. The Rigases weren't that magnanimous.

If they had been economically viable, they'd have been continued by the people who bought WNSA and Empire. If WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was no making money.

 

Deluca, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the second station, although 97 Rock is the same company as WGR, (I think). I at least wish WBEN had a evening lineup like they used to with Simon and Bulldog.

 

Actually what I wish is that there were an Internet feed like there once was... :(

[deluca67]

If they had been economically viable, they'd have been continued by the people who bought WNSA and Empire. If WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was no making money.

 

Deluca, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the second station, although 97 Rock is the same company as WGR, (I think). I at least wish WBEN had a evening lineup like they used to with Simon and Bulldog.

 

Actually what I wish is that there were an Internet feed like there once was... :(

How about this.

 

If there are any hard core computer geeks out there? A pirate web-cast feed dedicated to Buffalo sports. Or maybe even pod casts. I just can't listen to that garbage anymore. It' s the same five callers and employees calling in every show.

 

Come on Geeks. Forget the Pentagon codes for a day or two and set this up. And by the way. If you have any Carmen Electra pics? Let me know. She is killer.

[Taro T]

If they had been economically viable, they'd have been continued by the people who bought WNSA and Empire.  If WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was no making money.

 

Deluca, I agree with you wholeheartedly about the second station, although 97 Rock is the same company as WGR, (I think).  I at least wish WBEN had a evening lineup like they used to with Simon and Bulldog.

 

Actually what I wish is that there were an Internet feed like there once was... :(

NOBODY bought Empire. There was an offer, Adelphia turned it down. I posted that I believe that the executives at Adelphia did not evaluate the offer correctly and that is why it was rejected.

 

I do not understand what you mean by "if WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was making no money." Can you please clarify this statement, because what I am getting out of it is: WNSA made money because Empire lost money. I am certain this is not your meaning, but am not sure where you were going.

 

My understanding of why WNSA was turned into a very good rock radio station is that the people that owned WGR AND WNSA realised that there was a limited size to the sports radio market in the Buffalo market. They felt (probably correctly) that MOST of the listeners of 1 station would be willing to listen to the other station if there was no alternative. I have not seen the WGR ratings since WNSA was converted to the Lake, but would be astonished if the ratings had not gone up. As I stated, the Lake is a good music station. I would be surprised if the total ratings of the 2 stations combined is not greater than WGR and WNSA was when they were going head to head. Higher overall ratings = greater ad revenue. Does WNSA being converted mean that it was not profitable? Not at all. It simply means that once 1 owner owned both stations, he could make more money by having 2 different formats than by having 2 stations with the same format.

[deluca67]

NOBODY bought Empire. There was an offer, Adelphia turned it down. I posted that I believe that the executives at Adelphia did not evaluate the offer correctly and that is why it was rejected.

 

I do not understand what you mean by "if WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was making no money." Can you please clarify this statement, because what I am getting out of it is: WNSA made money because Empire lost money. I am certain this is not your meaning, but am not sure where you were going.

 

My understanding of why WNSA was turned into a very good rock radio station is that the people that owned WGR AND WNSA realised that there was a limited size to the sports radio market in the Buffalo market. They felt (probably correctly) that MOST of the listeners of 1 station would be willing to listen to the other station if there was no alternative. I have not seen the WGR ratings since WNSA was converted to the Lake, but would be astonished if the ratings had not gone up. As I stated, the Lake is a good music station. I would be surprised if the total ratings of the 2 stations combined is not greater than WGR and WNSA was when they were going head to head. Higher overall ratings = greater ad revenue. Does WNSA being converted mean that it was not profitable? Not at all. It simply means that once 1 owner owned both stations, he could make more money by having 2 different formats than by having 2 stations with the same format.

The Lake? Jack? It's all the same. The owners of WGR did buy WNSA. It does not mean that WGR wa sthe better station. It wasn't. WGR was getting it's a$$ed kicked. Then the Rigas thing happened.

 

The fact is that WGR is a second rate station. There are many fans like me waiting for some sort of alternative.

 

Even without competition? WGR is #2.

[Taro T]

The Lake? Jack? It's all the same. The owners of WGR did buy WNSA. It does not mean that WGR wa sthe better station. It wasn't.? WGR was getting it's a$$ed kicked. Then the Rigas thing happened.

 

The fact is that WGR is a second rate station. There are many fans like me waiting for some sort of alternative.

 

Even without competition? WGR is #2.

You are 100% correct that WNSA was the better station. I did not mean to imply that it wasn't.

 

Unfortunately for the local fans (and the WNSA staff), the people making the decision of which station to keep had already made their bed in the WGR house. Much as I would like to have seen WNSA stay, and WGR go (and the people making the decision could POSSIBLY have saved face by claiming the decision to keep WNSA had something to do with wording of the Sabres broadcast contract) there was very little to no likelihood that WGR (which the owners had wrought) would go under while WNSA (which somebody else had put together) stayed.

 

Can you imagine the quarterly meetings w/ the head honchos discussing this decision? "Bob, why did you kill your station to keep the new guys?" "Uh, because they didn't treat the listeners like morons; and they had a better overall format." "Bob, didn't you develop the 'treat the listeners like morons' format?" "Uh, yeah." "Bob, you're a genius; we're going to give you a bazillion $/year raise because you learned the errors of your ways."

 

I don't think they'd have gone quite so well for "Bob" or whoever it is that runs WGR.

[Knightrider]

NOBODY bought Empire. There was an offer, Adelphia turned it down. I posted that I believe that the executives at Adelphia did not evaluate the offer correctly and that is why it was rejected.

 

I do not understand what you mean by "if WNSA was turning a profit, it was because it was co-located with Empire, which was making no money." Can you please clarify this statement, because what I am getting out of it is: WNSA made money because Empire lost money. I am certain this is not your meaning, but am not sure where you were going.

 

My understanding of why WNSA was turned into a very good rock radio station is that the people that owned WGR AND WNSA realised that there was a limited size to the sports radio market in the Buffalo market. They felt (probably correctly) that MOST of the listeners of 1 station would be willing to listen to the other station if there was no alternative. I have not seen the WGR ratings since WNSA was converted to the Lake, but would be astonished if the ratings had not gone up. As I stated, the Lake is a good music station. I would be surprised if the total ratings of the 2 stations combined is not greater than WGR and WNSA was when they were going head to head. Higher overall ratings = greater ad revenue. Does WNSA being converted mean that it was not profitable? Not at all. It simply means that once 1 owner owned both stations, he could make more money by having 2 different formats than by having 2 stations with the same format.

What I meant was that WNSA was using Empire's resourses, i.e. studio, and personalities. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be surprised if Howard Simon got a paycheck from WNSA. Stuff like that would keep the operating expenses low for WNSA which makes it look more profitable.

 

 

For the record, I think the wrong sports station survived...

[Taro T]

What I meant was that WNSA was using Empire's resourses, i.e. studio, and personalities.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be surprised if Howard Simon got a paycheck from WNSA.  Stuff like that would keep the operating expenses low for WNSA which makes it look more profitable.

 

 

For the record, I think the wrong sports station survived...

I'd be surprised if the accounting for who got paid for what job did not go back to the proper entity. (Auditors tend to be pretty picky about stuff like that for publicly traded companies.) Maybe Brad Riter lurks on this board, I know he posts occasionally on TSW. If he does, maybe he could ask Howard Simon to help clue us in on how things worked at the old WNSA/Empire family.

 

For the record, you are right about which station survived.

 

Also, in case Brad is lurking; I think that you would have been a HUGE improvement over WNSA's Zig in your timeslot. Zig definitely was a WGR quality host. Riter, IMHO, could have fit in over at WNSA.

[deluca67]

What I meant was that WNSA was using Empire's resourses, i.e. studio, and personalities. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be surprised if Howard Simon got a paycheck from WNSA. Stuff like that would keep the operating expenses low for WNSA which makes it look more profitable.

 

 

For the record, I think the wrong sports station survived...

Just my opinion.

 

I think WNSA made Empire not the other way around. I couldn't watch Empire from my car or work. I could listen to WNSA. I listened twice as much then I watched.

 

Bring back the Sharp Shooters. Kelley and Robie were the best.

 

Peace :rolleyes:

[Taro T]

Just my opinion.

 

I think WNSA made Empire not the other way around.  I couldn't watch Empire from my car or work. I could listen to WNSA. I listened twice as much then I watched.

 

Bring back the Sharp Shooters. Kelley and Robie were the best.

 

Peace  :rolleyes:

D*mn DeLuca,

I think we found something that we agree on.

Scary.

[deluca67]

D*mn DeLuca,

I think we found something that we agree on.

Scary.

It is Halloween :ph34r:

[Taro T]

It is Halloween :ph34r:

:lol: :lol: :lol: