What Would It Take to Obtain Thomas and Parayko?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Mr. MVP said:

You guys remember when Zemgus Girgensons was an untouchable?  We all thought he was our next superstar. 

Okay. A decade and four GMs ago. Very relevant.

Edited June 2 by PromoTheRobot

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

In the What If of all What If's, What If Thomas had put the Sabres over the top. A very good player for three pieces who have never done anything for you.

See also: can both teams win a trade?

The ultimate 2 winners trade:  Iginla for Niewendyk.  Great player in his prime that one team was missing and a great player just starting out who matured on the timeline of the team he was traded to.

So, yes, 2 teams can both win a trade.

[Nacho Libre]

28 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The ultimate 2 winners trade:  Iginla for Niewendyk.  Great player in his prime that one team was missing and a great player just starting out who matured on the timeline of the team he was traded to.

So, yes, 2 teams can both win a trade.

People will have to slowly but surely adjust to the mechanics of being a contender - don’t blame anyone, it’s been a generation. But our muscle memory says “quality of quantity”. It was important when we were trying to build back from bottom of the league nothingness to continually swap assets we manage to obtain for quantity hauls. Multiple picks, prospects. We had depleted the system so much, the only way back was to convert the few assets we had into multiple pieces, spread the talent in a singular asset over several so we could slowly but surely build back the depth needed to compete 

What we don’t want to do right now is trade valuable pieces of our CURRENT ROSTER. The dynamic has changed. Welcome to being a contender. What was once quality for quantity, is now about the opposite: being a contender is paying the price to fill a hole. The ends justify the means (when trading prospects/picks). The important part is filing the holes on your hopeful championship team: you don’t need to worry nearly as much about your pool of futures assets, because you aren’t counting on overcoming the math of a pick making it, through quantity, as much - because we have so many less holes to fill 

do you think STL cares they traded Thompson? They don’t care one iota they dealt one of the best goal scorers in the league. Think about that! 

it’s not the worst thing if we don’t add Thomas or whatever. Guys like that are almost never available. But if we COULD, I honestly couldn’t wrap my head around not wanting to when we are close to being a cup contender, but maybe just a bit short, and we have the opportunity to add a ONE C, who can play-make on the Powerplay, get Tage to wing, seemingly the only missing piece on a team that was ABLE to compete without it - imagine how realistic winning a cup could actually be - like gun to head right now I know no one is thinking we are going to win the cup next year, if you had to bet on it, I mean, (cheers to you if you are), and it’s certainly POSSIBLE, - but what about with a legit top 15 league C? Maybe we are the favourite.

I find the thought of adding him honestly super exciting - I have no desire to keep a player instead who I know for a near fact won’t be as good next year, when we know our window is now open and we don’t know for how long. 

Edited June 2 by Nacho Libre

[stinky finger]

6 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Interesting. So is Carter Hart winning them games or is it the shot blocking?

Both. Carter has been very good.

[Turbo44]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

OK, but then you're not getting Thomas.

Norris isn't a compelling piece from STL's perspective (or anyone else's).  He has minimal to negative trade value.  

I’m not sure - that’s seems like fair value. (4) 1st round pick equivalents for Thomas basically? I get that Norris is selling low but Quinn had 50+ points and looked good in the playoffs; the 1st is a 1st and Stl desperately wants Mrtka. They tried to trade kyrou for Seattle’s 8th pick to draft Mrtka and tried to trade with Buffalo for Mrtka.

How about Kyrou for Mrtka, a 1st and greenway? Kyrou is a younger, cheaper version of Tuch (28 and 5 years left paying 8.125 per) and we clear cap space by trading greenway. We’d be buying Kyrou low too. Mrtka looks good but he had 1 goal last year in juniors. One goal.

This would leave us with 8.8m cap which would allow us to sign benson to a bridge, Krebs and beck. If we want to sign Benson long term and/or resign kesselring we’d need to shed more salary. Zucker, Dansforth, UPL, etc 

[Flashsabre]

43 minutes ago, Nacho Libre said:

People will have to slowly but surely adjust to the mechanics of being a contender - don’t blame anyone, it’s been a generation. But our muscle memory says “quality of quantity”. It was important when we were trying to build back from bottom of the league nothingness to continually swap assets we manage to obtain for quantity hauls. Multiple picks, prospects. We had depleted the system so much, the only way back was to convert the few assets we had into multiple pieces, spread the talent in a singular asset over several so we could slowly but surely build back the depth needed to compete 

What we don’t want to do right now is trade valuable pieces of our CURRENT ROSTER. The dynamic has changed. Welcome to being a contender. What was once quality for quantity, is now about the opposite: being a contender is paying the price to fill a hole. The ends justify the means (when trading prospects/picks). The important part is filing the holes on your hopeful championship team: you don’t need to worry nearly as much about your pool of futures assets, because you aren’t counting on overcoming the math of a pick making it, through quantity, as much - because we have so many less holes to fill 

do you think STL cares they traded Thompson? They don’t care one iota they dealt one of the best goal scorers in the league. Think about that! 

it’s not the worst thing if we don’t add Thomas or whatever. Guys like that are almost never available. But if we COULD, I honestly couldn’t wrap my head around not wanting to when we are close to being a cup contender, but maybe just a bit short, and we have the opportunity to add a ONE C, who can play-make on the Powerplay, get Tage to wing, seemingly the only missing piece on a team that was ABLE to compete without it - imagine how realistic winning a cup could actually be - like gun to head right now I know no one is thinking we are going to win the cup next year, if you had to bet on it, I mean, (cheers to you if you are), and it’s certainly POSSIBLE, - but what about with a legit top 15 league C? Maybe we are the favourite.

I find the thought of adding him honestly super exciting - I have no desire to keep a player instead who I know for a near fact won’t be as good next year, when we know our window is now open and we don’t know for how long. 

Is Tuch retained in this scenario or is Thomas essentially the Tuch replacement?

https://eyesonisles.com/reports-says-the-ny-islanders-are-exploring-trading-mathew-barzal-this-summer-01kt2qgpxmte

Looks like Barzal might be available. I sort of remember acquiring an Isles dynamic centre in the past that sort of worked out alright😛

[Nacho Libre]

4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Is Tuch retained in this scenario or is Thomas essentially the Tuch replacement?

https://eyesonisles.com/reports-says-the-ny-islanders-are-exploring-trading-mathew-barzal-this-summer-01kt2qgpxmte

Looks like Barzal might be available. I sort of remember acquiring an Isles dynamic centre in the past that sort of worked out alright😛

If we lose Tuch I think we have to add a really good forward. I can obviously live with not acquiring a Thomas esp if Tuch is here - it could be a pipe dream. My point was only that if we can we should. But if we lose Tuch and don’t add a F of note I think that’s a bad strategy. 

no idea how good barzal is anymore. You? 

Edited June 3 by Nacho Libre

[St. Pete Gogolak]

4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Is Tuch retained in this scenario or is Thomas essentially the Tuch replacement?

https://eyesonisles.com/reports-says-the-ny-islanders-are-exploring-trading-mathew-barzal-this-summer-01kt2qgpxmte

Looks like Barzal might be available. I sort of remember acquiring an Isles dynamic centre in the past that sort of worked out alright😛

I recall Moulson being a winger.  /s.

[Turbo44]

3 minutes ago, Nacho Libre said:

If we lose Tuch I think we have to add a really good forward. I can obviously live with not acquiring a Thomas esp if Tuch is here - it could be a pipe dream. My point was only that if we can we should. But if we lose Tuch and don’t add a F of note I think that’s a bad strategy. 

no idea how good barzal is anymore. You? 

Barzal is still good and may be revitalized centering Thompson and benson. He’d fit right in with the Sabres’ centers <40% face off win rate

[...]

The rest of the league may see Norris differently now that he survived two playoff rounds.

Also, thinking now would be a good time to bet $100 on the Sabres winning the Cup next season.

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, freester said:

That trade proposal won’t get it done for Thomas. More realistic is Norris,Kesslring, Mrtka, unprotected 1st

 

add another first then. Maybe Mrtka. I don't think they'd want Norris.

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

I agree on players to keep and trade. But also think it might take more. However St Louis might not want to trade Thomas at all and rather build around him. 

It might take more and I know there are other suitors. Boston for example really wants a 1C and they might decide to offer Hagens and a bunch of first rounders (they have one from Florida and Toronto coming in another year or two). It's a tough one. If the price gets too high you walk obviously. 

[Flashsabre]

53 minutes ago, Nacho Libre said:

If we lose Tuch I think we have to add a really good forward. I can obviously live with not acquiring a Thomas esp if Tuch is here - it could be a pipe dream. My point was only that if we can we should. But if we lose Tuch and don’t add a F of note I think that’s a bad strategy. 

no idea how good barzal is anymore. You? 

Barzal is very slick offensively. Great in transition and zone entries. Natural playmaker who would definitely help the PP.

If both Thomas and Barzal were available I would lean Thomas for sure. Younger, great playmaker, really good at the faceoff dot, who loves to strip pucks and plays well defensively.

Edited June 3 by Flashsabre

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Fansince70 said:

3 excellent young centers coming up full time next year.  Sabres don't need Thomas.  

Yes they are coming up but as good as they are they won't be peaking for another 2-3 years or more. If you want to open a real cup window you improve in the immediate. If you build to wait 3 more years you have other players aging or leaving and you also end up with cap issues and more Tuch scenarios so it's hard to keep a top team together. 

The time to add top talent is now while you can take advantage of having ELCs in your cap structure. 

[thewookie1]

Let’s just say if St. Louis wanted 2 of Helenius, Östlund and Benson in addition to Mrtka and our 1st then Armstrong has gone senile. 

[GoPuckYourself]

Parayko is not coming here otherwise he'd be a Sabre already, he chose to stay with the Blues and nothing wrong with that but i think that ship has sailed. It was rumored that the Blues want the equivalent of 4- 1st round picks. My pitch in another thread was Kulich, our 1st this year, 1st next year protected and Radim Mrtka for Thomas with maybe a pick or player back from the Blues.

Edited June 3 by GoPuckYourself

[nfreeman]

4 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Then I'd rather not get him, I'm not dumping Norris in a trade due to $$$ as well as paying 4 1sts to get 1 guy which includes 2 NHLers and 2 1sts effectively.

Norris still has some value, otherwise we may as well just hold onto him and hope he stays healthy long enough to garner some. 

The reason to trade Norris is for the cap space.  He has 4 more years at $8MM per year and he cannot stay healthy. 

He missed 38 games this year, then got hurt immediately in the playoffs, missed most of the 1st round and was ineffective after returning other than 1 good game (2 assists and 1 empty net goal in 10 games).  He missed 26 games 2 years ago, 32 games the year before that and 74 games the year before that.

No one is trading for a guy like that -- not without the Sabres either paying the other team to take him or taking back a different bad contract.

The possibility of not being able to afford to keep Tuch or Byram because we are married to Norris at $8MM per year is just terrible.

 

2 hours ago, Fansince70 said:

Don't sell the farm for Thomas.  The Sabres were 4th in goals for in the Conference this past season, and have young talent coming on line.  He's not McJesus.  

This is a legitimate position.  I hate the thought of trading Helenius and I really don't want to trade Östlund either.  OTOH, Thomas is almost certainly a #1 center on this Sabres team and they would've been substantially better with him vs the Habs.

I am fine with trading Mrkta, Quinn and a #1 for Thomas, but that won't be enough.

We'll see.  

[Fansince70]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

The reason to trade Norris is for the cap space.  He has 4 more years at $8MM per year and he cannot stay healthy. 

He missed 38 games this year, then got hurt immediately in the playoffs, missed most of the 1st round and was ineffective after returning other than 1 good game (2 assists and 1 empty net goal in 10 games).  He missed 26 games 2 years ago, 32 games the year before that and 74 games the year before that.

No one is trading for a guy like that -- not without the Sabres either paying the other team to take him or taking back a different bad contract.

The possibility of not being able to afford to keep Tuch or Byram because we are married to Norris at $8MM per year is just terrible.

 

This is a legitimate position.  I hate the thought of trading Helenius and I really don't want to trade Östlund either.  OTOH, Thomas is almost certainly a #1 center on this Sabres team and they would've been substantially better with him vs the Habs.

I am fine with trading Mrkta, Quinn and a #1 for Thomas, but that won't be enough.

We'll see.  

Throw in UPL 😆

[thewookie1]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

The reason to trade Norris is for the cap space.  He has 4 more years at $8MM per year and he cannot stay healthy. 

He missed 38 games this year, then got hurt immediately in the playoffs, missed most of the 1st round and was ineffective after returning other than 1 good game (2 assists and 1 empty net goal in 10 games).  He missed 26 games 2 years ago, 32 games the year before that and 74 games the year before that.

No one is trading for a guy like that -- not without the Sabres either paying the other team to take him or taking back a different bad contract.

The possibility of not being able to afford to keep Tuch or Byram because we are married to Norris at $8MM per year is just terrible.

 

This is a legitimate position.  I hate the thought of trading Helenius and I really don't want to trade Östlund either.  OTOH, Thomas is almost certainly a #1 center on this Sabres team and they would've been substantially better with him vs the Habs.

I am fine with trading Mrkta, Quinn and a #1 for Thomas, but that won't be enough.

We'll see.  

I do think there are teams out there who’d want Norris. All you need is a couple teams to like him and suddenly you have a market

Also part of my Norris to St.L idea is they might target Tkachuk and what better way to tempt him than by bringing his friend there

Edited June 3 by thewookie1

[Turbo44]

58 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I do think there are teams out there who’d want Norris. All you need is a couple teams to like him and suddenly you have a market

Also part of my Norris to St.L idea is they might target Tkachuk and what better way to tempt him than by bringing his friend there

Norris has a 10 team NMC kicking in July 1, so if you’re going to trade him you’re probably trading him in June 

[Second Line Center]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Let’s just say if St. Louis wanted 2 of Helenius, Östlund and Benson in addition to Mrtka and our 1st then Armstrong has gone senile. 

 

Any trade for Thomas or any elite 1C will cost us Norris just bc of the cap.  
 

Norris and Mrtka plus picks is most I'd give for Thomas.  Everything else is an overpay.  Even that might be.   
 

And I’m only considering trading Norris bc I want more reliability and availability.  
 

Any proposals involving Helenius and Östlund should revolve around Bedard or McDavid.   
 

I truly think this team just needs Tuch back to be a Cup contender.  
 

And Benson should NEVER be mentioned as a piece in any deals he’s off limits.  

[Fansince70]

9 hours ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- If they trade for Parayko, I think it means that Byram is not going to be re-signed -- so I don't want them to trade for Parayko.  I want them to re-sign Byram at least as much as I want them to re-sign Tuch, which is a lot.

- Thomas would be a great addition and as such would cost a lot.  Norris and Kulich -- 2 guys with major health issues -- plus Mrkta and a #1 is nowhere close to what it will take.  While Benson is off the table, I wouldn't expect STL to agree to anything less than Östlund, Quinn, Mrkta and a #1 -- which I would do if I were Jarmo.  And it's fairly likely that STL would insist on Helenius instead of Östlund or Quinn.  That's a tougher call.  Östlund also has an injury history, which reduces his value, and Helenius looks great.  His recent golden goal, which included trucking 2 defenders on the follow-through, was incredible.

Screw getting held up by St. Louis.  

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I am fine with trading Mrkta, Quinn and a #1 for Thomas, but that won't be enough.

We'll see.  

Would you do Mrtka Quinn and 2 number 1s? 

I'd be tempted to do that one myself, although I'd prefer to give them Kesselring instead of one of those 4 pieces if possible. 

[nfreeman]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Would you do Mrtka Quinn and 2 number 1s? 

I'd be tempted to do that one myself, although I'd prefer to give them Kesselring instead of one of those 4 pieces if possible. 

Yes but I don't think STL would.  I don't think they -- or anyone else in the NHL -- is trading a #1 center who turns 27 this year and is under a pretty decent contract for 4 more years without getting a very good NHL roster player plus good futures.  Mrkta is probably a good future, but 2 probably lower-end first-rounders aren't that great, and Quinn is half a season removed from "likely washout" status and didn't produce much in the playoffs.

If the Sabres trade for Thomas, the price is going to hurt.

[Archie Lee]

Factoring in Eichel’s injury and that the Sabres lacked some leverage in that trade, how much more or less valuable is Thomas today than Eichel was in Nov 2021?

Quinn, Östlund, a top 10 protected 1st in 2027 and a 2nd in 2028 for Thomas and a 3rd, is pretty much what we got for Eichel. 

Quinn and Tuch are different player types, but play the same position, are both former 1sts (Quinn has a higher draft pedigree), are the same age (Quinn is the age Tuch was in 2021), and have near identical stat lines at the relative points in their careers. 

Likewise for Östlund and Krebs. Similar draft positions. Centres who might end up wingers. Östlund is a year older than Krebs was in 2021, and as a result is a year ahead in NHL games played. 

I can’t imagine we would get Thomas for this, but the value is quite close.