What Would It Take to Obtain Thomas and Parayko?

[Fansince70]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I guess we'll never know. But I do know that trade would have weakened the Sabres going forward.

Weakened by injury but sure. I'm of the opinion that Eastern teams played more of a gauntlet than Western teams. We'll find out starting tonight.

VGK blocks an inordinate amount of shots. The entire team sells out to stop the puck, forwards included.  Might be a low scoring series against the Breeezes.  I like the fact VGK starts on the road, and if they take one in Carolina, gonna be wild.  

Edited June 2 by Fansince70

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Fansince70 said:

VGK blocks an inordinate amount of shots. The entire team sells out to stop the puck, forwards included.  Might be a low scoring series against the Breeezes.  I like the fact VGK starts on the road, and if they take one in Carolina, gonna be wild.  

Interesting. So is Carter Hart winning them games or is it the shot blocking?

Edited June 2 by PromoTheRobot

[Nacho Libre]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Helenius, Mrtka and a 1st??? That would have been grand larceny by the Blues. The hockey gods saved us from a serious blunder. This is why I worry about Jarmo a bit. We have a very good team. Don't get crazy.

Yea, we’ve got a really good team, lots of work to do but making the second round is really good. How many games played on that really good team last year by that draft pick? What about Mrtka? Helenius?

Oh, 9 games total between the 3, you say. I’m not sure dealing said assets would have much of an effect on said really good team, call me crazy.

Adding a forward better than any other forward on the team? That might help our very good team with said needed work to do

Someone will need to explain to me why we have “no room” for the guy because we have a few guys who have a small chance of being as good, one day distantly down the line. Thread utterly filled with nonsensical, rose-coloured jargon. Must be Tuesday 

- - -

not really even saying that lightly. “Grand larceny”. So an absolute drubbing by the sabres in the hypothetical trade. What, then, is fair? “Grand larceny” was the phrase, so, totally ripping them off. One asset slides out easily then, MAYBE we aren’t bamboozling them then. So, what, a draft pick and a mediocre prospect in Mrtka for a Number One NHL C, that we haven’t managed to snag since Eichel. That’s a good deal, a fair deal for the blues? If someone offered us a pick and moderate prospect for Thompson, good deal? 

this isn’t a hockey discussion. It’s a “no no, I love each and every one of the Sabres assets more than you do!” pissing contest. Utterly dripping in fear, and not of failure: the fear is of admitting we can be better. That it is within our power to be better. Defence mechanism. So glad Jarmo is the GM.

Edited June 2 by Nacho Libre

[Fansince70]

16 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Interesting. So is Carter Hart winning them games or is it the shot blocking?

Both.  Can't block 'em all.  Hart has been clutch when it counts.  

[PromoTheRobot]

26 minutes ago, Nacho Libre said:

Yea, we’ve got a really good team, lots of work to do but making the second round is really good. How many games played on that really good team last year by that draft pick? What about Mrtka? Helenius?

Oh, 9 games total between the 3, you say. I’m not sure dealing said assets would have much of an effect on said really good team, call me crazy.

Adding a forward better than any other forward on the team? That might help our very good team with said needed work to do

Someone will need to explain to me why we have “no room” for the guy because we have a few guys who have a small chance of being as good, one day distantly down the line. Thread utterly filled with nonsensical, rose-coloured jargon. Must be Tuesday 

- - -

not really even saying that lightly. “Grand larceny”. So an absolute drubbing by the sabres in the hypothetical trade. What, then, is fair? “Grand larceny” was the phrase, so, totally ripping them off. One asset slides out easily then, MAYBE we aren’t bamboozling them then. So, what, a draft pick and a mediocre prospect for a Number One NHL C, that we haven’t managed to snag since Eichel. That’s a good deal, a fair deal for the blues? If someone offered us a pick and moderate prospect for Thompson, good deal? 

this isn’t a hockey discussion it’s a “no no I love each and every one of the Sabres assets more than you do” pissing contest 

You see what Helenius is now. Compare him to Robert Thomas in three years? Mrtka isn't as obvious but he has the physical gifts and he uses them, unlike a certain large D-man we lament doesn't. The first round pick isn't as big a deal, but remember we got Kulich with pick #28. Wasn't Benson's name also bandied about in that Thomas deal? That enters ludicrous territory.

We get so horny to make a big trade, we forget what we already have. Make a deal to get better, not swap assets.

Edited June 2 by PromoTheRobot

[Nacho Libre]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You see what Helenius is now. Compare him to Robert Thomas in three years? Mrtka isn't as obvious but he has the physical gifts and he uses them, unlike a certain large D-man we lament doesn't. The first round pick isn't as big a deal, but remember we got Kulich with pick #28. Wasn't Benson's name also bandied about in that Thomas deal? That enters ludicrous territory.

You said a pick Mrtka and Helenius was “grand larceny”. That’s categorically absurd. The discussion wasn’t about benson, that’s a goalpost shift, I wouldn’t trade him either. Too functionally important on the TEAM WE SAW LAST YEAR

It is far more likely Helenius doesn’t become a top 10-15 C in the league: that’s what Thomas is at 26. 2 years ago I had to literally had to argue with an entire thread that Tage wasn’t the next Eric Lindros. This stuff is just par for the course - I suppose the Helenius stuff is actually reigned in by comparison 

Edited June 2 by Nacho Libre

[Fansince70]

41 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

In the What If of all What If's, What If Thomas had put the Sabres over the top. A very good player for three pieces who have never done anything for you.

See also: can both teams win a trade?

Sabres still didn't have Cup level goaltending.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Fansince70 said:

Sabres still didn't have Cup level goaltending.  

All the cup level goalies are out of the playoffs. 🤣

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Helenius, Mrtka and a 1st??? That would have been grand larceny by the Blues. The hockey gods saved us from a serious blunder. This is why I worry about Jarmo a bit. We have a very good team. Don't get crazy.

At the time of the trade deadline? The Legend of Konsta had not yet been written. There would have been more coming back to the Sabres as well. It would have - at a bare minimum - been a good hockey trade.

56 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

In the What If of all What If's, What If Thomas had put the Sabres over the top. A very good player for three pieces who have never done anything for you.

See also: can both teams win a trade?

Preach!

44 minutes ago, Nacho Libre said:

Adding a forward better than any other forward on the team? That might help our very good team with said needed work to do <>
So glad Jarmo is the GM.

@PromoTheRobot's takes here are so on the nose that I'm wondering a bit if they're being offered as a parody of how hometown fans tend to overvalue and cling to players on their favourite team's roster/in that team's system.

Getting a true, proven top half of the league 1C would cost the Sabres one of the Helenius or Östlund (plus Mrtka and/or a 1st). Dem's the facts.

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You see what Helenius is now. Compare him to Robert Thomas in three years?

I want the Sabres to compete for the Stanley Cup next season.

Could Helenius be the team's wunderkind 1C for that run?

Maybe ...?

I also know damn well who could definitely fulfill that role (God willing (barring catastrophe, etc.)).

[nfreeman]

My 2 cents:

- If they trade for Parayko, I think it means that Byram is not going to be re-signed -- so I don't want them to trade for Parayko.  I want them to re-sign Byram at least as much as I want them to re-sign Tuch, which is a lot.

- Thomas would be a great addition and as such would cost a lot.  Norris and Kulich -- 2 guys with major health issues -- plus Mrkta and a #1 is nowhere close to what it will take.  While Benson is off the table, I wouldn't expect STL to agree to anything less than Östlund, Quinn, Mrkta and a #1 -- which I would do if I were Jarmo.  And it's fairly likely that STL would insist on Helenius instead of Östlund or Quinn.  That's a tougher call.  Östlund also has an injury history, which reduces his value, and Helenius looks great.  His recent golden goal, which included trucking 2 defenders on the follow-through, was incredible.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

At the time of the trade deadline? The Legend of Konsta had not yet been written. There would have been more coming back to the Sabres as well. It would have - at a bare minimum - been a good hockey trade.

Preach!

@PromoTheRobot's takes here are so on the nose that I'm wondering a bit if they're being offered as a parody of how hometown fans tend to overvalue and cling to players on their favourite team's roster/in that team's system.

Getting a true, proven top half of the league 1C would cost the Sabres one of the Helenius or Östlund (plus Mrtka and/or a 1st). Dem's the facts.

I want the Sabres to compete for the Stanley Cup next season.

Could Helenius be the team's wunderkind 1C for that run?

Maybe ...?

I also know damn well who could definitely fulfill that role (God willing (barring catastrophe, etc.)).

I've been on Sabrespace a long time and I know how we roll. If Helenius were on the Blues and we saw that golden goal, there would be a reactor core meltdown over dealing him. 

I think we more often undervalue players because they are ours. We also get horny for big trades for the adrenaline rush.

 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- If they trade for Parayko, I think it means that Byram is not going to be re-signed -- so I don't want them to trade for Parayko.  I want them to re-sign Byram at least as much as I want them to re-sign Tuch, which is a lot.

- Thomas would be a great addition and as such would cost a lot.  Norris and Kulich -- 2 guys with major health issues -- plus Mrkta and a #1 is nowhere close to what it will take.  While Benson is off the table, I wouldn't expect STL to agree to anything less than Östlund, Quinn, Mrkta and a #1 -- which I would do if I were Jarmo.  And it's fairly likely that STL would insist on Helenius instead of Östlund or Quinn.  That's a tougher call.  Östlund also has an injury history, which reduces his value, and Helenius looks great.  His recent golden goal, which included trucking 2 defenders on the follow-through, was incredible.

Frankly the max I'm giving for Thomas would be Norris, Quinn, Mrkta and our 26 1st 

Norris's value might be hurt by injuries but I doubt Östlund's would be.... yet

Also Norris has to go back in any Thomas trade, money in money out because us trading Norris for a 2nd somewhere is a complete non-starter from a PR standpoint.

Also St. L can kick rocks if they think we are including Helenius in a massive package. 

Edited June 2 by thewookie1

[Drag0nDan]

I like the idea of adding a center.  But anyone with a full NTC is always a challenge.  26 year old 2-way center's who score a point per game are also not easily found so I'm not sure this guys even on the market.  He's available at the deadline because the package is usually better than a draft day one, and now our picks so late in the 1st that it has considerably less value.  

Looking at the roster - if you can move zucker and greenway you should make enough there to accommodate tuch's contract.  

Benson - Norris - Thompson (I think Thompson is a capable center, and probably the line 1 center if norris is unavailable)

Zucker - Helenius - Quinn

Östlund - McLeod - Kulich

Greenway - Krebs - Kozak

UFAs - Tuch, Malenstyn, Dunne

Dahlin - Samuelsson

Byram - Power 

Timmins - Kesselring

Metsa

UFAs - Stanley, Schenn

 

[That Aud Smell]

42 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I've been on Sabrespace a long time and I know how we roll. If Helenius were on the Blues and we saw that golden goal, there would be a reactor core meltdown over dealing him. 

I think we more often undervalue players because they are ours. We also get horny for big trades for the adrenaline rush.

This reinforces the idea I'd floated above (about your take being a borderline parody of how fanbases fall in love with young talent and can't abide the thought of parting with an emerging player).

But is that sound analysis? Or is it just going with the flow of how a fanbase reflexively reacts based on things that happened most recently?

I acknowledge that Helenius has made himself more difficult to part with based on what he did in the playoffs and in the men's world tournament.

More difficult. Not impossible. Nothing is impossible.

Also, please stop saying "horny."

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, That Aud Smell said:

This reinforces the idea I'd floated above (about your take being a borderline parody of how fanbases fall in love with young talent and can't abide the thought of parting with an emerging player).

But is that sound analysis? Or is it just going with the flow of how a fanbase reflexively reacts based on things that happened most recently?

I acknowledge that Helenius has made himself more difficult to part with based on what he did in the playoffs and in the men's world tournament.

More difficult. Not impossible. Nothing is impossible.

Also, please stop saying "horny."

I thought that word was an apt descriptor, but I'll drop it.

Obviously your opinion differs from mine. And in the end only one opinion matters....mine. (I kid. It's Jarmo's.)

 

[nfreeman]

31 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Frankly the max I'm giving for Thomas would be Norris, Quinn, Mrkta and our 26 1st 

Norris's value might be hurt by injuries but I doubt Östlund's would be.... yet

Also Norris has to go back in any Thomas trade, money in money out because us trading Norris for a 2nd somewhere is a complete non-starter from a PR standpoint.

Also St. L can kick rocks if they think we are including Helenius in a massive package. 

OK, but then you're not getting Thomas.

Norris isn't a compelling piece from STL's perspective (or anyone else's).  He has minimal to negative trade value.  

[thewookie1]

Just now, nfreeman said:

OK, but then you're not getting Thomas.

Norris isn't a compelling piece from STL's perspective (or anyone else's).  He has minimal to negative trade value.  

Then I'd rather not get him, I'm not dumping Norris in a trade due to $$$ as well as paying 4 1sts to get 1 guy which includes 2 NHLers and 2 1sts effectively.

Norris still has some value, otherwise we may as well just hold onto him and hope he stays healthy long enough to garner some. 

[That Aud Smell]

23 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I thought that word was an apt descriptor, but I'll drop it.

ha - definitely a joke on my part. #horny #orelseforgetaboutit

[Mr. MVP]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I've been on Sabrespace a long time and I know how we roll. If Helenius were on the Blues and we saw that golden goal, there would be a reactor core meltdown over dealing him. 

I think we more often undervalue players because they are ours. We also get horny for big trades for the adrenaline rush.

 

You guys remember when Zemgus Girgensons was an untouchable?  We all thought he was our next superstar. 

[Broken Ankles]

16 minutes ago, Mr. MVP said:

You guys remember when Zemgus Girgensons was an untouchable?  We all thought he was our next superstar. 

[Fansince70]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

All the cup level goalies are out of the playoffs. 🤣

Funny, but either Hart or Anderson will be kissing the Cup in a few weeks.   And that's all that counts.  

[Nacho Libre]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I've been on Sabrespace a long time and I know how we roll. If Helenius were on the Blues and we saw that golden goal, there would be a reactor core meltdown over dealing him. 

I think we more often undervalue players because they are ours. We also get horny for big trades for the adrenaline rush.

 

You’ve worked “horny” in to 2 posts now today relax 

[Nacho Libre]

24 minutes ago, Mr. MVP said:

You guys remember when Zemgus Girgensons was an untouchable?  We all thought he was our next superstar. 

Imagine if he scored a 3 on 3 goal in a tournament no one cares about against Switzerland. He’d still be our 1C

Edited June 2 by Nacho Libre

[Fansince70]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

OK, but then you're not getting Thomas.

Norris isn't a compelling piece from STL's perspective (or anyone else's).  He has minimal to negative trade value.  

Don't sell the farm for Thomas.  The Sabres were 4th in goals for in the Conference this past season, and have young talent coming on line.  He's not McJesus.  

[Nacho Libre]

7 minutes ago, Fansince70 said:

Don't sell the farm for Thomas.  The Sabres were 4th in goals for in the Conference this past season, and have young talent coming on line.  He's not McJesus.