Buffalo Bills 2025 Thread

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

If one takes a look at their career stats, one would see that Coleman and Worthy are nearly identical. Sure, Worthy has 22 more receptions but for only 8 more yards, while Coleman averages 4 yards more per catch. And they both have 7 TDs. This idea that Worthy would have been so much better for us is a short-sighted take at best. And AGAIN, as an undersized off ball receiver, he is LIMITED. There is just so much more to it than running fast in shorts. And it’s worth pointing out, that for all the teeth gnashing over Worthy, our offense has been better than KC’s since he entered the league. 

Why anyone spends a second lamenting the fact that Worthy isn’t a Bill is beyond me. 

The real miss was Brad McConkey, drafted by the Chargers with the pick after Coleman.  McConkey looks like an excellent player.  

Much better than Coleman, Worthy and Legette.  

[Demoted]

Was just a bad game by our best players. When Cook and Josh fumble you are in trouble. Not to mention penalties killing so many first downs. 

[LGR4GM]

10 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The real miss was Brad McConkey, drafted by the Chargers with the pick after Coleman.  McConkey looks like an excellent player.  

Much better than Coleman, Worthy and Legette.  

Ladd not Brad. 

Go Dawgs. 

[K-9]

4 hours ago, Demoted said:

Was just a bad game by our best players. When Cook and Josh fumble you are in trouble. Not to mention penalties killing so many first downs. 

The fumbles sucked, but I can’t get angry when they’re the result of extra effort by the player fighting for every extra yard. 

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ladd not Brad. 

Go Dawgs. 

Pretty sure it’s Chad.

[Pimlach]

51 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The fumbles sucked, but I can’t get angry when they’re the result of extra effort by the player fighting for every extra yard. 

Pretty sure it’s Chad.

Josh's fumble happened while fighting for that 14th yard on a play that needed 1 yard.   Not a smart play.   His end zone pic was also a bad one.   I love Allen, but he is not above criticism for his mistakes in that game.   Score on those drives and it is different game.  

 

Brad, Ladd, Chad, Vlad, that kid can play.  Looking at his stats, he would help Allen a lot.  

[K-9]

25 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Josh's fumble happened while fighting for that 14th yard on a play that needed 1 yard.   Not a smart play.   His end zone pic was also a bad one.   I love Allen, but he is not above criticism for his mistakes in that game.   Score on those drives and it is different game.  

 

Brad, Ladd, Chad, Vlad, that kid can play.  Looking at his stats, he would help Allen a lot.  

Nobody is above criticism, not even the best players. But dumb or not, I hope Josh never loses his desire to give that extra effort in trying to make a play. Same with Cook. 

[Wyldnwoody44]

I keep seeing other teams making santa across the middle look so easy, matched up on linebackers, or rub routes, etc.... I see absolutley zero of that with this team, nothing to establish a quick passing game... Some is on the players but that's on Brady I think more.... We put a Geo storm engine in the Z06 and I don't like it 

[#freejame]

Bradys calls the game the McDermott tells him to call. If you want a play caller who will always be aggressive, what you really want is a new head coach. 

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

The fumbles sucked, but I can’t get angry when they’re the result of extra effort by the player fighting for every extra yard. 

Pretty sure it’s Chad.

 

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Josh's fumble happened while fighting for that 14th yard on a play that needed 1 yard.   Not a smart play.   His end zone pic was also a bad one.   I love Allen, but he is not above criticism for his mistakes in that game.   Score on those drives and it is different game.  

 

Brad, Ladd, Chad, Vlad, that kid can play.  Looking at his stats, he would help Allen a lot.  

It's not Tad?

[Porous Five Hole]

19 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The real miss was Brad McConkey, drafted by the Chargers with the pick after Coleman.  McConkey looks like an excellent player.  

Much better than Coleman, Worthy and Legette.  

I agree that Ladd was a better pick than Keon. but McConkey doesn't solve this team's biggest problem at the WR position.  
 

The Bills biggest problem is there is no one who is a threat deep and outside. Defenses can compress the field against us both vertically and horizontally.  This is killing the Bills offense. 

So yea, Ladd is a better football player than Keon, but neither do any of the things this offense really needs.

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

I agree that Ladd was a better pick than Keon. but McConkey doesn't solve this team's biggest problem at the WR position.  
 

The Bills biggest problem is there is no one who is a threat deep and outside. Defenses can compress the field against us both vertically and horizontally.  This is killing the Bills offense. 

So yea, Ladd is a better football player than Keon, but neither do any of the things this offense really needs.

Disagree.  McConkey would be helping them. Look at his numbers.  He leads his entire draft class in receptions and yards. 

McConkey has 52 receptions and 631 yards and 4 TDs, while Coleman has 32 and 330 and 3.   

Palmer and Samuel are fast and can run deep routes to take coverage with them.  That would make things even better for McConkey and Shakir better. 

McConkey knows how to get open.  

[Broken Ankles]

5 hours ago, Doohickie said:

 

It's not Tad?

Could be Thad.  Short for Thadius.  

[Porous Five Hole]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Disagree.  McConkey would be helping them. Look at his numbers.  He leads his entire draft class in receptions and yards. 

McConkey has 52 receptions and 631 yards and 4 TDs, while Coleman has 32 and 330 and 3.   

Palmer and Samuel are fast and can run deep routes to take coverage with them.  That would make things even better for McConkey and Shakir better. 

McConkey knows how to get open.  

Looking at numbers doesn’t define a role. McConkey is a better football player than Keon, but he doesn’t do the thing the Bills need well.

lol to your Palmer and Samuel comment.  
Agree to disagree. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Porous Five Hole

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Looking at numbers doesn’t define a role. McConkey is a better football player than Keon, but he doesn’t do the thing the Bills need well.

lol to your Palmer and Samuel comment.  
Agree to disagree. 

Scheme fit is not a small consideration when drafting players. 

[inkman]

6 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I keep seeing other teams making santa across the middle look so easy, matched up on linebackers, or rub routes, etc.... I see absolutley zero of that with this team, nothing to establish a quick passing game... Some is on the players but that's on Brady I think more.... We put a Geo storm engine in the Z06 and I don't like it 

At this point I’d try St. Nick in the slot, he should at least be able to box out the D 

[Wyldnwoody44]

58 minutes ago, inkman said:

At this point I’d try St. Nick in the slot, he should at least be able to box out the D 

He'd only be good for one night and dissappear the rest of the season. 

[inkman]

17 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

He'd only be good for one night and dissappear the rest of the season. 

Sounds like he’s getting tips from my wife 

[Wyldnwoody44]

43 minutes ago, inkman said:

Sounds like he’s getting tips from my wife 

Smart woman 😉

[Pimlach]

15 hours ago, K-9 said:

Scheme fit is not a small consideration when drafting players. 

You always draft the overall better player in the early rounds, then you can scheme with what that player brings.  Especially for a WR.  

Coleman - Hey lets draft a guy that played more basketball than football, that might be good at contested catches, and then we can throw 4 low percentage passes a game at him.  So far he will catch 2 of them on a season.   Yeah, nice scheme.   Coleman has not had given us a 50 yards in a game in 6 out of the last 7 weeks.   Allen is dying with him getting all the snaps that he does.  

 

 

 

[Pimlach]

16 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Looking at numbers doesn’t define a role. McConkey is a better football player than Keon, but he doesn’t do the thing the Bills need well.

lol to your Palmer and Samuel comment.  
Agree to disagree. 

The bolded statement is just wrong.   What exactly is this magic requirement that the Bills have, that McConkey does not do?  Give me a straight answer without sarcasm.  

Stop over thinking this.  What the Bills needed was someone that can consistently get open and catch the ball - that is what Diggs did and is exactly what McConkey does.  

You can disagree, but you bring nothing in term of facts. 

McConkey is breaking out right now and becoming the #1 WR on San Diego.   Look at his weekly stats.  He is turning out to be the best WR on the board when the Bills draft position came up.  They had 3 shots at him and they whiffed.  

Coleman and the rest of the Bills WR group is not up to the standards of a Super Bowl contender and we are seeing it play out.    

 

[K-9]

28 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

You always draft the overall better player in the early rounds, then you can scheme with what that player brings.  Especially for a WR.  

Coleman - Hey lets draft a guy that played more basketball than football, that might be good at contested catches, and then we can throw 4 low percentage passes a game at him.  So far he will catch 2 of them on a season.   Yeah, nice scheme.   Coleman has not had given us a 50 yards in a game in 6 out of the last 7 weeks.   Allen is dying with him getting all the snaps that he does.  

 

 

 

Are you saying scheme fit isn’t an important consideration when drafting players? Whether we like it or not, it plays a role in every draft for every team. I’m not saying BPA isn’t important because it certainly is. But when player rankings are as close as they are, especially late in the first round as they were in the ‘23 draft, scheme fit plays a role whether we agree or not. Anyway, I will agree to disagree as there is no point in continuing to re-litigate a draft in hindsight. 

[K-9]

An excerpt from Jim Kubiak’s weekly BN critique of the previous game confirms what I’ve been seeing from Josh as well. For as much as we complain nobody is getting open, he often isn’t throwing to them when they are. Something has just seemed off for a while now. He appears a half step slower and his fastball is lacking as well. Almost like he doesn’t trust his arm to make medium range throws with the necessary zip. I suspect he’s nursing an injury of some sort. 

Quote

Allen-- "Allen's performance was below anything I've graded in his career."  It was mind boggling.  Terrible reads, passing over open receivers he was looking at, and simply not staying in-system.  On the end zone pic, the play call was perfect against Cover 0, he had three good options but took none of the, and on option 4 he threw a terrible pass to Shavers.  Josh's mind was clearly elsewhere on Sunday

 

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Are you saying scheme fit isn’t an important consideration when drafting players? Whether we like it or not, it plays a role in every draft for every team. I’m not saying BPA isn’t important because it certainly is. But when player rankings are as close as they are, especially late in the first round as they were in the ‘23 draft, scheme fit plays a role whether we agree or not. Anyway, I will agree to disagree as there is no point in continuing to re-litigate a draft in hindsight. 

Scheme is important, but lets not confuse scheme and needs.  BPA is important too.  Knowing when to go with one or the other is also important. 

Beane is coming up on the wrong side of these draft decisions much to often.   Kiiar Elam was another "scheme guy" until he wasn't.    

Q.  What did Beane need in that draft?     Ans.  He needed a WR to replace Diggs. That was Need #1 and he didn't do it in the draft or in free agency.  Now a second year has past and he still has not done it. 

Beane had a board with Worthy, Legette, McConkey, Franklin, and Coleman all there.    What was it about Coleman that was so compelling?   He could jump like a basketball player and get to contested balls.  What was the down side of Coleman?   Lots - namely speed, knowledge of the position, and football experience.  Right now the downside is far outweighing the positives.  On top of that McDermott is complaining about his effort.  

Neither of you can tell me what it is about McConkey that does not fit the Bills needs or their scheme.  He was highly regarded for his ability to get open and catch.  He is faster, quicker, and a better route runner than Coleman - all measureables that were known.  He had a much better college career on a great team in Georgia. He had late first and early 2nd round draft grades.  Right now he is playing like the best WR in the draft although Marvin Harrison Jr is starting to emerge.  

What happens when Brady gets fired and we get a new OC and that person has a new scheme?  Do we replace all the players to met a new scheme?  Of course not.  

You draft the best players you can find, then you adapt the scheme based on the players. 

I am harping on this because you and  @Porous Five Hole keep telling me that McConkey does not fit the scheme, and he does not bring what the Bills needs.  I will not buy this.  So far it looks like Beane missed on this pick.   The reality for all to see is that McConkey is bringing exactly what the Bills needed to the San Diego Chargers, and Coleman is still learning and playing an inconsistent game.  Coleman has had flashes but more often than not he is not getting the job done. 

 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Scheme is important, but lets not confuse scheme and needs.  BPA is important too.  Knowing when to go with one or the other is also important. 

Beane is coming up on the wrong side of these draft decisions much to often.   Kiiar Elam was another "scheme guy" until he wasn't.    

Q.  What did Beane need in that draft?     Ans.  He needed a WR to replace Diggs. That was Need #1 and he didn't do it in the draft or in free agency.  Now a second year has past and he still has not done it. 

Beane had a board with Worthy, Legette, McConkey, Franklin, and Coleman all there.    What was it about Coleman that was so compelling?   He could jump like a basketball player and get to contested balls.  What was the down side of Coleman?   Lots - namely speed, knowledge of the position, and football experience.  Right now the downside is far outweighing the positives.  On top of that McDermott is complaining about his effort.  

Neither of you can tell me what it is about McConkey that does not fit the Bills needs or their scheme.  He was highly regarded for his ability to get open and catch.  He is faster, quicker, and a better route runner than Coleman - all measureables that were known.  He had a much better college career on a great team in Georgia. He had late first and early 2nd round draft grades.  Right now he is playing like the best WR in the draft although Marvin Harrison Jr is starting to emerge.  

What happens when Brady gets fired and we get a new OC and that person has a new scheme?  Do we replace all the players to met a new scheme?  Of course not.  

You draft the best players you can find, then you adapt the scheme based on the players. 

I am harping on this because you and  @Porous Five Hole keep telling me that McConkey does not fit the scheme, and he does not bring what the Bills needs.  I will not buy this.  So far it looks like Beane missed on this pick.   The reality for all to see is that McConkey is bringing exactly what the Bills needed to the San Diego Chargers, and Coleman is still learning and playing an inconsistent game.  Coleman has had flashes but more often than not he is not getting the job done. 

 

It’s not up to me to explain why McConkey wasn’t a scheme fit or not in the opinion of the Bills braintrust. I merely pointed out at it IS a consideration for every team in the league. Yes, the Bills needed to replace Diggs but,  AT THE TIME, McConkey was projected to be a slot receiver, where he spent the vast majority of his time his first two seasons BTW. We already HAD enough slot guys. You don’t replace Diggs, who wasn’t a slot receiver, with a projected slot receiver. 

It’s great that McConkey has shown he can also operate out wide, but there were concerns about that with the return of Keenan Allen this year. Wish we had him, too, but Beane and Co. don’t have the benefit of our 20/20 hindsight. 

And for the record, nothing about my position in discussion this has ANYTHING to do with Coleman. I can say he leaves a lot to be desired while at the same time explaining why the Bills had legitimate reasons to bypass other receivers in that draft at the time. They are two distinct issues in my mind. 

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The bolded statement is just wrong.   What exactly is this magic requirement that the Bills have, that McConkey does not do?  Give me a straight answer without sarcasm.  

Stop over thinking this.  What the Bills needed was someone that can consistently get open and catch the ball - that is what Diggs did and is exactly what McConkey does.  

You can disagree, but you bring nothing in term of facts. 

McConkey is breaking out right now and becoming the #1 WR on San Diego.   Look at his weekly stats.  He is turning out to be the best WR on the board when the Bills draft position came up.  They had 3 shots at him and they whiffed.  

Coleman and the rest of the Bills WR group is not up to the standards of a Super Bowl contender and we are seeing it play out.    

 

First off, this has nothing to do with Keon v Ladd for me.  I don’t care about that comparison. Mostly because their roles are different. Ladd is a slot receiver and Keon is a field or boundary receiver. I don’t think you’re considering this. It is the thesis to this whole thing for me. 
 

Of the Bills WR group, what do they not do well? The answer is there is no one on the outside who is a deep threat. Most of the deep balls that Josh has thrown are 1) after a scramble extending the play, or 2) a “50/50” ball to Keon. I quote 50/50 because Keon does not catch half of them.  
 

You said Palmer & Samual can do this. They cannot consistently do this.
While Palmer’s average depth of target is 15 yards (which is very good), he’s averaging two receptions a game. He’s averaging 39 yards a game (stats are from actual games played and ignoring the games he’s missed). And now he’s hurt. It’s not cutting it.

Samuel’s average depth of target is 4.9 yards. He has no business on the outside or deep.  
 

Back to scheme and role for me.  Ladd McConkey doesn't solve this team's biggest issue which is the Bills don't threaten deep and outside. Just because he has good stats doesn’t mean he’s what the Bills actually need.  If Khalil Shakir was the biggest problem in the WR room, then I would have agreed with you.  But he’s not. 

Ladd lined up in the slot 2/3 of the time in 2024. Everything I can tell is this has not changed much.

The scheme fact I need to reiterate is because the Bills have nothing deep and outside, opposing defenses compress the field against Buffalo both vertically and horizontally. The field to defend shrinks. And we are a lot easier to defend because of it. Drop Ladd on the Bills roster right now and he’s running routes directly into the strength of the scheme of opposing defenses/double coverage.

You told me to stop overthinking it. “He gets open” is true and McConkey would be an upgrade over Shakir, but that’s who he would replace. Not Keon. So my conclusion is while McConkey’s average depth of target is double Shakir’s, it still doesn’t fix the Bills offensive problems. Maybe Ladd develops into a Justin Jefferson over time and sheds the slot. But he’s not doing that yet.  
 

BTW:

Ladd: 51 receptions for 631 yards, averaging 12 yards a play, 4 TDs in 10 games. 
Shakir: 45 receptions for 457 yards, averaging 10 yards a play, 3 TDs in 9 games.