2023 Stanley Cup Finals: Florida vs Vegas

[Marvin]

12 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I suppose but it just irks me that expansion teams come in with a complete clean slate as to me it's far easier in a salary cap driven league to start at zero then rebuild on previously failed attempts (see Sabres rebuild as example). So I'm a disgruntled far that these new teams can be good right out of the bat meanwhile I have to endure what feels like a constant rebuild that's been going on since we lost Drury, Briere and Miller. 

Two points:

1. The Sabres' and fans' desire to install a losing culture and to make losing acceptable for the franchise for the last 12 years resulted in a team stripped beyond the level of all but the worst expansion teams for 2013-5.  The 2021-2 team was more like a normal expansion team, albeit a higher-end one.  But tearing the Ruff team down to that level does not guarantee McEichel.

2. Las Vegas and Seattle had better GMs than Murray and Botterill and better coaches than Bylsma, Housley, and Krueger.

Don't get mad at the NHL, the teams, or their fans.  Get mad at your fellow Sabres fans who wanted to tank plus the Sabres organisation for being stupid enough to listen to them.

Repeat after me: Tanking is for losers.  Encouraging tanking is crass stupidity.  Let us hope the tankers have finally learned their lesson.  IMHO, they deserve a long, painful, 5 year rebuild starting 2021-2.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Most of the NHL should be unhappy, as these expansion teams are doing far better than I would like. As to me I want expansion teams to struggle or be bottom feeders for at least 3-4 seasons. Yet here we are with teams like the Knights and Kraken making the playoffs and the Stanley Cup Finals within years of starting up. 

 

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Not sure whom you mean to encompass by "[m]ost of the NHL," but be assured that this is precisely the deal the owners intended to make: Get a significant premium on franchise expansion fees in exchange for the expansion teams' having a good chance of immediately being competitive. The successes of Seattle and Las Vegas have been by design.

Regarding both of these ideas, that the expansion teams had an unfair advantage, I've said it before and will say it again, they didn't. They had a better deal than the old expansion teams got, but it was far from guaranteed success. They are both simply managed better than teams like the Sabres have been in the past. 

Think about this, would you as Sabres GM have traded the ENTIRE Sabres roster and prospect pool, everything and everyone, for the expansion draft Kraken roster? Would you? That's everybody. Thompson, Reinhart, Eichel, Ullmark, Dahlin, Cozens, etc etc etc.   All of ours for all of theirs. That's the starting point. Look at those rosters. You wouldn't would you. Not even close. 

But in 2 years they traded and signed and drafted and retooled and flipped some 2/3 of that roster and are an exciting playoff team. That's simply good management. 

Vegas had a bit of an easier start with all the dumb side deals GMs made but again, that's good management on their part. I forget their whole initial roster but I don't think it was better than what the Sabres had at that time. Better goaltending with Fleury but not much star power and pretty much a lunch bucket crew. In hindsight maybe you'd swap all for all but at the time I don't think you would. 

With all the high picks we've had and plenty of cap space, we should have been a competitive team a LONG TIME AGO, but we've botched and bungled it despite plenty of opportunity. That's all on management and the owner who hires them. 

Adams rebuild version whatever seems to be building a talented young core, but he (imo) is still botching it by moving too slowly. We could and should have made the playoffs this year. It could have been a huge moment for the franchise. So we can argue that and if we need to add or should have added or how much to rely on our own draft picks and so on but if we don't get it together this year coming up it can all fall apart yet again so easily. It's time, over due, and I hope Adams knows it and doesn't keep think years down the road. 

[Sabel79]

I suppose the devolution of this thread into our roughly 235,972nd rehash of the tank, and more importantly, which of us can claim the high ground more than a decade later by claiming to have been against it (I am absolutely, militantly, indifferent at this point) was inevitable, given the teams involved and the Sabres contribution to their rosters.

Please, for the love of all that is holy and most that is not, let this be the last off-season anybody can bring this up because the team has finally turned the corner.  I'm hopeful it will be.  

[Marvin]

10 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

I suppose the devolution of this thread into our roughly 235,972nd rehash of the tank, and more importantly, which of us can claim the high ground more than a decade later by claiming to have been against it (I am absolutely, militantly, indifferent at this point) was inevitable, given the teams involved and the Sabres contribution to their rosters.

Please, for the love of all that is holy and most that is not, let this be the last off-season anybody can bring this up because the team has finally turned the corner.  I'm hopeful it will be.  

IMHO, the end of discussions about the tank were never going to end until the Sabres made the playoffs.  I stand by it.

[Eleven]

57 minutes ago, Marvin said:

IMHO, the end of discussions about the tank were never going to end until the Sabres made the playoffs.  I stand by it.

The discussions?  They won't end ever.

[Goldseatsaud]

Panthers in 6

[Sabel79]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

The discussions?  They won't end ever.

We do have the inevitable heat death of the universe to look forward to, worst-case scenario.  

[hockey]

Make expansion teams do it 1992 style again.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

IMHO, the end of discussions about the tank were never going to end until the Sabres made the playoffs.  I stand by it.

Yup, until we are winners we are losers. The air will only be cleansed of the stink when we make the playoffs and even then we have to keep rising. 

Like many people here, I was not anti-tank, but I was against Murray trading away all those picks and making the (in his mind) quick fixes he made after gutting the thing. Total disaster. 

[FrenchConnection44]

Going for the Panthers because I don’t ever want to see Eichel win the Cup. 
 

That said, Tkachuk is such a piss ant that I am a bit torn. But still trumps my animosity toward Jack. 
 

Let’s go Bobrovski!!

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Yzerman was drafted in 1983.  I'm not talking about *my* frustration.  I was talking about the general fan base.

That team had been trash LONG before Stevie Wonder showed up.  Why pick that year as your demarcation point for suffering if you aren't limiting it to your own personal experience?

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Sabel79 said:

We do have the inevitable heat death of the universe to look forward to, worst-case scenario.  

If you’ve seen the movie K-Pax, you’d know the universe and everything in it is going to constantly re-run itself for eternity: so the discussion will stop...for a time.

[bg17]

Panthers are currently playing poolside blackjack at Red Rock Casino Resort. They’re DOOMED. 

[spndnchz]

*pulls fire alarm*

 

Too soon?

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, bg17 said:

Panthers are currently playing poolside blackjack at Red Rock Casino Resort. They’re DOOMED. 

Welcome back!

[Pimlach]

17 hours ago, Marvin said:

Two points:

1. The Sabres' and fans' desire to install a losing culture and to make losing acceptable for the franchise for the last 12 years resulted in a team stripped beyond the level of all but the worst expansion teams for 2013-5.  The 2021-2 team was more like a normal expansion team, albeit a higher-end one.  But tearing the Ruff team down to that level does not guarantee McEichel.

2. Las Vegas and Seattle had better GMs than Murray and Botterill and better coaches than Bylsma, Housley, and Krueger.

Don't get mad at the NHL, the teams, or their fans.  Get mad at your fellow Sabres fans who wanted to tank plus the Sabres organisation for being stupid enough to listen to them.

Repeat after me: Tanking is for losers.  Encouraging tanking is crass stupidity.  Let us hope the tankers have finally learned their lesson.  IMHO, they deserve a long, painful, 5 year rebuild starting 2021-2.

Marv Levy used to say, when you listen to the fans you end up sitting with them. 

This is the first take I have read that the fans are to blame.  I don’t think so.

Pegula gets the blame, he hired the wrong people.  

[Quint]

Eichel moonwalking his way to a Stanley Cup. 

 

[That Aud Smell]

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Regarding both of these ideas, that the expansion teams had an unfair advantage, I've said it before and will say it again, they didn't. They had a better deal than the old expansion teams got, but it was far from guaranteed success. They are both simply managed better than teams like the Sabres have been in the past. 

Thing the first: You misstate what I’d posited. I didn’t say “unfair advantage.” I didn’t say “guaranteed success.”

As for the balance, there’s no doubt that the Sabres bungled a lot for a decade or so. That said, fixing a going concern is fundamentally different than starting from scratch. 

[Quint]

21 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Most of the NHL should be unhappy, as these expansion teams are doing far better than I would like. As to me I want expansion teams to struggle or be bottom feeders for at least 3-4 seasons. Yet here we are with teams like the Knights and Kraken making the playoffs and the Stanley Cup Finals within years of starting up. 

The Sabres and Canucks first few years come to mind. Besides Perreault and Martin, the Sabres fielded a barely professional organization. We were given the dregs of the league or washed-up vets in the expansion draft, not the cream of the crop young players that the Knights and Kraken were handed. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000331971.html#:~:text=Buffalo Sabres 1970-71 roster and statistics , -- 25 more rows

Even the best case scenario was the St. Louis Blues in 1967, who made three straight Stanley Cup finals in their first three years. They were placed in a newly-formed expansion division which they dominated. But when they played the winner of the original six division, they got swept all three times.

I agree with you. I resent that the Knights made the SCF in their first year, and they had to go through a lot of competition to get there. It wasn't like they had to beat a bunch of scrubs to get there. They were given a tilted playing field and they were able to assemble a really good management team to take advantage of it.

[French Collection]

55 minutes ago, Quint said:

not the cream of the crop young players that the Knights and Kraken were handed.

I don’t think Vegas got the cream of the crop. They made a few shrewd trades to upgrade but by and large these guys were teams’ third liners and 4-5D. Fleury was an immediate boost and Gallant got these guys working hard to prove that a bunch of “rejects” could compete.

Here is their expansion draft result.

Draft results

#PlayerPos.Drafted from

1.Calvin PickardGColorado Avalanche

2.Luca SbisaDVancouver Canucks

3.Teemu PulkkinenLWArizona Coyotes

4.Jon MerrillDNew Jersey Devils

5.William CarrierLWBuffalo Sabres

6.Cody EakinCDallas Stars

7.Tomas NosekLWDetroit Red Wings

8.Jonathan MarchessaultCFlorida Panthers

9.Brayden McNabbDLos Angeles Kings

10.Connor BrickleyCCarolina Hurricanes

11.Chris ThorburnRWWinnipeg Jets

12.Pierre-Edouard BellemareRWPhiladelphia Flyers

13.Jason GarrisonDTampa Bay Lightning

14.Jean-Francois BerubeGNew York Islanders

15.James NealLWNashville Predators

16.Deryk EngellandDCalgary Flames

17.Brendan LeipsicLWToronto Maple Leafs

18.Colin MillerDBoston Bruins

19.Marc MethotDOttawa Senators

20.David SchlemkoDSan Jose Sharks

21.David PerronLWSt. Louis Blues

22.Oscar LindbergCNew York Rangers

23.Griffin ReinhartDEdmonton Oilers

24.Alexei EmelinDMontreal Canadiens

25.Clayton StonerDAnaheim Ducks

26.Erik HaulaCMinnesota Wild

27.William KarlssonCColumbus Blue Jackets

28.Trevor van RiemsdykDChicago Blackhawks

29.Marc-Andre FleuryGPittsburgh Penguins

30.Nate SchmidtDWashington Capitals

 

[Scottysabres]

On 5/31/2023 at 10:38 PM, OverPowerYou said:

Let this sink in

The Sabres tanked for 2 years in a row in 2013 and 2014 and got the #1 and #2 overall picks. Those players are now playing against  each other in the final round of the Stanley cup finals. 

Here's the best part. One of the teams is an expansion team from 2019, which has made the finals twice already in 4 years. 

One of these two franchises will also win it all for the first time. Meanwhile buffalo hasn't done squat since 2007. 

Actually, both Reinhart and Eichel were picked 2nd over all.

And it has already been pointed out, post cap modern era expansions teams get extremely nice selection pools and can weaponize early years cap space to further target and acquire roster ready talent, which Vegas fully put on display since the teams inception.

Buffalo ownership made some poor choices in management selections and/or had poor advisors around them, showing there is more to running an NHL Franchise then the talent on the ice. Imho.

[Marvin]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Marv Levy used to say, when you listen to the fans you end up sitting with them. 

This is the first take I have read that the fans are to blame.  I don’t think so.

Pegula gets the blame, he hired the wrong people.  

IMHO, regardless of what the fans wanted, Pegula is to blame for OK-ing the plan.  I am still baffled that he got convinced that tanking was a good idea.

However, I am convinced that if WGR does not rally the tankers among the fans, then Pegula never OKs Operation McEichel.  So I blame those fans who wanted to tank.  I give blame to those who cheered for losses for 2 straight seasons because they are part of the reason that we have become a laughingstock and the NHL team building example of Carson's Consolation.  ("No experiment is ever a complete failure because it can always be used as a bad example.")

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

IMHO, regardless of what the fans wanted, Pegula is to blame for OK-ing the plan.  I am still baffled that he got convinced that tanking was a good idea.

However, I am convinced that if WGR does not rally the tankers among the fans, then Pegula never OKs Operation McEichel.  So I blame those fans who wanted to tank.  I give blame to those who cheered for losses for 2 straight seasons because they are part of the reason that we have become a laughingstock and the NHL team building example of Carson's Consolation.  ("No experiment is ever a complete failure because it can always be used as a bad example.")

I feel literally zero guilt where the team is concerned for routing for losses during the tank. They sold the strategy, they sold the product, they are the professionals getting paid to make the decisions. They literally said the plan was suffering, that the plan was losing. Fans who bought in then are acting with no different ultimate intent than those buying in now: we wanted the team to be right.

But, truth laid bare....I regret rooting for losses. I regret the affect it had on my mindset. I feel it was harmful and disrespectful to my own psyche as a fan of the team I love. It wasn’t a betrayal of the team, it was a self betrayal and I take personal ownership for buying into a course of action that was a mistake. I feel bad for the fans. In many ways, it led to a path that still presents strains to my fandom, still tests its durability. 

Never again can that happen

Edited June 3, 2023 by Thorny

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

I feel literally zero guilt where the team is concerned for routing for losses during the tank. They sold the strategy, they sold the product, they are the professionals getting paid to make the decisions. They literally said the plan was suffering, that the plan was losing. Fans who bought in then are acting with no different ultimate intent than those buying in now: we wanted the team to be right.

But, truth laid bare....I regret rooting for losses. I regret the affect it had on my mindset. I feel it was harmful and disrespectful to my own psyche as a fan of the team I love. It wasn’t a betrayal of the team, it was a self betrayal and I take personal ownership for buying into a course of action that was a mistake. I feel bad for the fans. In many ways, it led to a path that still presents strains to my fandom, still tests its durability. 

Never again can that happen

Happy to say I hated the idea of losing on purpose.   I remember Nolan trying to win games and the FO trading away his goaltending and anything else was was not nailed down.  

Edited June 4, 2023 by Pimlach

[Thorny]

16 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Happy to say I hated the idea of losing on purpose.   I remember Nolan trying to win games and the FO trading away away his goaltending and anything else was was not nailed down.  

Well you’re a better fan than me