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GDT: The real semifinal. Round 3.

Eleven

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Thorny Hall of Famer

Thorny

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8 hours ago, Doohickie said:

My dislike for Eichel has zero to do with the surgery to be honest.  And I think he was on his way out (as far as Adams was concerned) before that issue came up.  Kevyn understood the locker room dynamics and knew Eichel was not the guy to build THIS team around.

Ftfy

- - - 

Just because we didn’t manage to build a successful team when Jack was here absolutely doesn’t mean/prove jack can’t be present during the process (which seems to be the suggestion) while a successful, balanced roster, of the type currently in Vegas, is built up and constructed. That he would specifically need to be added “at the end” doesn’t jive logically - not when there’s a multitude of other variables pointing to how poorly management operated while he was here, during that “building” process.

To pretend we can isolate his role in supposedly hampering the process to the extent the exact same team he’s so fluidly a part of in Vegas *couldn’t* have been built *while* he was there is an incredible leap. Why would that be the case? I mean just on it’s face, there’s no compelling reason to think a player who, by all accounts, plays a crucial leadership role over there couldn’t have done so if he was there a bit earlier. Provided the same support, of course. The same team being built. I don’t think the order is key here, at all. The only “evidence” that suggests otherwise is that he couldn’t CARRY a *bad* team, poorly constructed, at 18, in Buffalo. That proves literally nothing. On the other hand, he has proven he is capable of being the best player on a fantastic team, all the while filling a leadership role: he’s that right now. 

Occam’s razor here is clearly that he’s capable of being a great player on a great team, while fulfilling a leadership role. That’s already been proven, now. That IS being “built around”. If the standard for being “built around” is literally the ability, while on your ELC for the majority of it, no less, to will a putrid team to the playoffs with little support to be found: try the NBA, as it’s a standard no NHL player can live up to. 

He needed the proper support. Yes. But: *that’s every player.*

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thewookie1 First Liner

thewookie1

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Ftfy

- - - 

Just because we didn’t manage to build a successful team when Jack was here absolutely doesn’t mean/prove jack can’t be present during the process (which seems to be the suggestion) while a successful, balanced roster, of the type currently in Vegas, is built up and constructed. That he would specifically need to be added “at the end” doesn’t jive logically - not when there’s a multitude of other variables pointing to how poorly management operated while he was here, during that “building” process.

To pretend we can isolate his role in supposedly hampering the process to the extent the exact same team he’s so fluidly a part of in Vegas *couldn’t* have been built *while* he was there is an incredible leap. Why would that be the case? I mean just on it’s face, there’s no compelling reason to think a player who, by all accounts, plays a crucial leadership role over there couldn’t have done so if he was there a bit earlier. Provided the same support, of course. The same team being built. I don’t think the order is key here, at all. The only “evidence” that suggests otherwise is that he couldn’t CARRY a *bad* team, poorly constructed, at 18, in Buffalo. That proves literally nothing. On the other hand, he has proven he is capable of being the best player on a fantastic team, all the while filling a leadership role: he’s that right now. 

Occam’s razor here is clearly that he’s capable of being a great player on a great team, while fulfilling a leadership role. That’s already been proven, now. That IS being “built around”. If the standard for being “built around” is literally the ability, while on your ELC for the majority of it, no less, to will a putrid team to the playoffs with little support to be found: try the NBA, as it’s a standard no NHL player can live up to. 

He needed the proper support. Yes. But: *that’s every player.*

For more cases you’re right, but I highly doubt Eichel ever grows up in Buffalo the way he has in Vegas. He had far too much of a “hero complex” which was exasperated even more by the 2 GMs who ran the team the majority of his time here. To what degree Eichel and to what degree it was our GMs I have no idea; but he certainly felt, by the end, that he was a shark in a pool of minnows. You see that from his interview after our 1st meetup.

I do think nowadays he may very well have regrets about that postgame interview and regrets about some of his behavior in Buffalo. He wasn’t evil, just a cocky young player who was literally given a golden spoon for existing. In Vegas he can still be a superstar and even potentially a leader over time; however he knows for a fact that if he doesn’t push his weight others will call him out and he won’t have the same excuses he had here. 
 

If he continues to grow up and mature I could certainly see 12 years from now an older UFA Eichel wanting to come back to Buffalo to mend fences for a year. But who knows.

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Eleven Hall of Famer

Eleven

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1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Kenny? He calls a strong game, I think.

Does he actually confuse Frederik Andersen for ol' man Craig?

He called him Craig at some point last week; I posted about it if you want to search.

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Thorny Hall of Famer

Thorny

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32 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

For more cases you’re right, but I highly doubt Eichel ever grows up in Buffalo the way he has in Vegas. He had far too much of a “hero complex” which was exasperated even more by the 2 GMs who ran the team the majority of his time here. To what degree Eichel and to what degree it was our GMs I have no idea; but he certainly felt, by the end, that he was a shark in a pool of minnows. You see that from his interview after our 1st meetup.

I do think nowadays he may very well have regrets about that postgame interview and regrets about some of his behavior in Buffalo. He wasn’t evil, just a cocky young player who was literally given a golden spoon for existing. In Vegas he can still be a superstar and even potentially a leader over time; however he knows for a fact that if he doesn’t push his weight others will call him out and he won’t have the same excuses he had here. 
 

If he continues to grow up and mature I could certainly see 12 years from now an older UFA Eichel wanting to come back to Buffalo to mend fences for a year. But who knows.

“By the end”

it’s when you use this verbiage i agree. I think by the end it was clearly unsalvageable, and that Adams made the necessary and correct decision. 

could it have worked out, had the asset not been squandered and drowned in ineptitude from Tim Murray’s *DISAPPOINTED REACTION* forward? I mean, of course. It got to a POINT where he had to go, but it took a long time to get there.

Of course he “grows up” here, we saw it in 2019/20. 

In other words, If Adams was the GM in 2015, the whole situation, imo, never goes off the rails. Or, if Eichel doesn’t go to a situation that literally anointed him as saviour through both the scorched earth tank process and mechanisms afterword. If he’d have been expected to be a very good player among other very good players,  and even the best among that crew, that’s fine. To suggest Eichel simply can’t be present on a team that improves, that he’s a hinderance to improvement, itself, on its face is just the stage of Cope that comes after “can’t win with this cancer.” 

”ok, you can win, he can be great, but he can’t be there for the process.” Of course he can. If it’s a good process. The *buffalo sabres* under historically inept management doesn’t even come close to representing a definitive college try

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JohnC First Liner

JohnC

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1 hour ago, Thorny said:

“By the end”

it’s when you use this verbiage i agree. I think by the end it was clearly unsalvageable, and that Adams made the necessary and correct decision. 

could it have worked out, had the asset not been squandered and drowned in ineptitude from Tim Murray’s *DISAPPOINTED REACTION* forward? I mean, of course. It got to a POINT where he had to go, but it took a long time to get there.

Of course he “grows up” here, we saw it in 2019/20. 

In other words, If Adams was the GM in 2015, the whole situation, imo, never goes off the rails. Or, if Eichel doesn’t go to a situation that literally anointed him as saviour through both the scorched earth tank process and mechanisms afterword. If he’d have been expected to be a very good player among other very good players,  and even the best among that crew, that’s fine. To suggest Eichel simply can’t be present on a team that improves, that he’s a hinderance to improvement, itself, on its face is just the stage of Cope that comes after “can’t win with this cancer.” 

”ok, you can win, he can be great, but he can’t be there for the process.” Of course he can. If it’s a good process. The *buffalo sabres* under historically inept management doesn’t even come close to representing a definitive college try

My view of the Eichel situation is more aligned with your view than it is with the majority of people here who resented him for wanting to leave the dysfunctional situation that he was in. He gets singled out because he was our highest profiled player who had greater expectations placed on him than any of the other players who let the front office know that they had no desire to continue on with this lagging franchise. Risto, Reinhart, Montour, Hall, Ullmark etc made it clear that they had no desire to continue on with the stagnant situation that they felt they were in. They all got moved or left. And for the most part they all ended up in better situations than they had here. Good for them. 

In general, the GM got reasonable returns for the departed players. Not only was the roster internally reshuffled but also the outside additions enhanced the talent that was already here. The most impactful move was dispatching a coach who was out of his depth, and then elevating the right coach who knew how to work with the roster he had. 

The moral of the Jack story is that continuous losing is demoralizing not only for the players but also for the fan base. It shouldn't be a surprise that it created an environment of disgruntlement that some players found intolerable. You asked the question as to whether the situation could have been different and salvageable. Of course, it could have. It wasn't for a variety of reasons that revolved around the ownership and staffing. Fortunately, it seems that the owner has modified his approach in overseeing his franchise and put in place a better staff that is allowed to do its jobs. 

 It seems that after being subjected to a long period of turmoil that this franchise has been stabilized. In the short tenure of KA as the GM the situation has dramatically changed for the better. I'm optimistic about the upcoming season. 

 

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GoPuckYourself Third Liner

GoPuckYourself

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If Panthers win this series they will win the Cup, there is no better goalie in the playoffs than Bob, he's like a machine right now. I remember when Patrick Roy got into this zone like Bob when he was with the Canadians the year they won the cup back in 1993.

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