Darren Dreger on Jason Karmanos

[Thorny]

I’m not sure fairness ever applies but it would feel ridiculously unfair to get poached already when we are just finding our way, after searching for so long. That’s the world of business I guess. Hope they can shuffle to avoid it, owner’s money could be key here 

[nucci]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:20 PM, kas23 said:

Sabres must have a contingency plan here. Adams gets promoted to POHO and Ventura/Karanos gets GM title. 

what if Adams likes being GM and the work that comes with it ? Why would we need a POHO and a GM?

[Carmel Corn]

Can we deny Pittsburg permission to interview Karmanos?  Kind of like what happened when we wanted to interview Chris Drury for GM years ago?

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/article_fc8e7642-d52f-5561-abbe-904076005bca.html

[GASabresIUFAN]

13 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Can we deny Pittsburg permission to interview Karmanos?  Kind of like what happened when we wanted to interview Chris Drury for GM years ago?

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/article_fc8e7642-d52f-5561-abbe-904076005bca.html

I think it would depend on his contract status.  Maybe if they hire him we can demand a good draft pick back like we had to pay to get the fired Bylsma.  

What do you think? A fired Coach was worth a 3rd.  I think a 1st this year should cover it.

How about this.  The cost to talk to him is a 6th and if hired we get the 1st instead.

Edited April 19, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[PASabreFan]

So three GMs and two POHO's.

At TH's that's a triple double.

[dudacek]

23 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think it would depend on his contract status.  Maybe if they hire him we can demand a good draft pick back like we had to pay to get the fired Bylsma.  

What do you think? A fired Coach was worth a 3rd.  I think a 1st this year should cover it.

How about this.  The cost to talk to him is a 6th and if hired we get the 1st instead.

They eliminated the draft pick compensation. 

I think it was the season after Bylsma (naturally)

[Randall Flagg]

I think ventura and karmanos are the only front office/coaching staff guys we have (that I know of anyway) that have served in their current roles on playoff teams before 

[dudacek]

23 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I think ventura and karmanos are the only front office/coaching staff guys we have (that I know of anyway) that have served in their current roles on playoff teams before 

The other ex-penguin Bales is the only other one that comes to mind

[kas23]

10 hours ago, nucci said:

what if Adams likes being GM and the work that comes with it ? Why would we need a POHO and a GM?

To retain individuals. Adams comes across as a team first guy. 

[nucci]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:49 PM, kas23 said:

To retain individuals. Adams comes across as a team first guy. 

still don't need a president and GM. Who makes the final calls on roster decisions?

[Brawndo]

I listened to Dreger on Sabres Live yesterday and it sounds like it’s more speculation from Dreger that he is ready for a GM position, not that he is a leading candidate for the Pittsburgh Position now. 

57 minutes ago, nucci said:

still don't need a president and GM. Who makes the final calls on roster decisions?

Karmanos and Ventura are heavily involved in the decision making process and Adams listens to them. 

[Buffalonill]

12 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I listened to Dreger on Sabres Live yesterday and it sounds like it’s more speculation from Dreger that he is ready for a GM position, not that he is a leading candidate for the Pittsburgh Position now. 

Karmanos and Ventura are heavily involved in the decision making process and Adams listens to them. 

Do you think Adams moves to president so Karmanos and Ventura stay?

[French Collection]

1 minute ago, Brawndo said:

Karmanos and Ventura are heavily involved in the decision making process and Adams listens to them. 

There’s power in that, hopefully they are well compensated for their efforts. It seems like KA is great at delegating and empowering people.

I am sure they would like to run their own show at some point but it would be nice to stay and see where this goes.

[nucci]

3 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Karmanos and Ventura are heavily involved in the decision making process and Adams listens to them. 

I understand that 

[Pimlach]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:33 AM, JohnC said:

Very often, taking over a program that is at an inflection point as whether to rebuild or continue to hang on a as a marginal playoff team is a good situation to take over. If a decision is made by the owners to bring in a new staff to reconstruct the program, then that would be a good situation for a new staff because it would need a number of years to execute such a plan. If the owners wanted to retain its core in Crosby and Maulkin and build around the fading group, then that would be an almost possible situation to throw yourself into. 

When Karmonos joined the KA staff he knew that the strategy was to dramatically rebuild the organization, top to bottom. The advantage that KA had was that he had a core that was still relatively young that would have value when dealt. KA was masterful in maximizing their value and receiving multiple assets back to help restore the talent base in the system. He was also fortunate to have a young core in players such as Tage, Cozens and Dahlin that was able to step up and fill the void left by the departures. 

You are absolutely right that anyone taking on the Pittsburgh job should not expect a quick fix. When Karmonos joined the Sabres I'm sure he had an idea of how long it would take to restore this dilapidated franchise into a successful operation. The big issue is more about what the owners expect and would be willing to allow the new management group to do. Will they give the new crew the resources, authority and time to do what needs to be done?

What's interesting about the Karmonos consideration for a GM position is that it says a lot about the franchise that he would be coming from. It says that the operation is a success and that the people working there are appealing candidates for other jobs. 

You are really jumping the gun here.  Karmanos is well known in Pittsburgh for his 6 years in the their organization, 3 as AGM.  

He has been a key part of a Sabres rebuild but if he gets the Pittsburgh GM job his prior work there will also be a big factor.  His home is still there too.  

Sure, we can feel good about the direction of the Sabres rebuild, but it’s still a work in progress with the biggest challenges still ahead.  

Edited April 21, 2023 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

You are really jumping the gun here.  Karmanos is well known in Pittsburgh for his 6 years in the their organization, 3 as AGM.  

He has been a key part of a Sabres rebuild but if he gets the Pittsburgh GM job his prior work there will also be a big factor.  His home is still there too.  

Sure, we can feel good about the direction of the Sabres rebuild, but it’s still a work in progress with the biggest challenges still ahead.  

I'm not sure what you mean by jumping the gun with respect to my comments. The point I was attempting to make is that any GM candidate should know from a general standpoint what direction the owners want to take the team. Is it a full-blown rebuild, a partial rebuild or a status quo approach upon assuming the position? If it is a major rebuild, that would entail trading assets such as Crosby and Malkin for future assets. If it is a partial rebuild, it might be trading only Malkin and keeping Crosby. If the owners wanted to stay as competitive as possible, it would most likely mean keeping both players. 

When KA assumed the GM position, he had a rebuild blueprint in mind. He was determined to trade our old core for future assets and elevate a newer younger core already on the roster. There is no question that the owner was on board when he hired KA to lead the hockey operation. 

Pittsburgh has been a cup contender for quite a while. Most people would consider them approaching the down cycle from a competitive standpoint. Recognizing where your team is in that cycle is what I was referring to when I described the situation as an inflection point. When Karmonos joined the Sabre organization, he knew exactly what the GM's plans were for the rebuild. He also knew that owner was on board to the GM's plan. If Karmonos is a serious candidate for the Penguin job, his views should align with how the owners want to proceed. If they don't, there would be problems right from the start. I'm sure someone as smart as he is in the business is aware of that. 

[Pimlach]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not sure what you mean by jumping the gun with respect to my comments. The point I was attempting to make is that any GM candidate should know from a general standpoint what direction the owners want to take the team. Is it a full-blown rebuild, a partial rebuild or a status quo approach upon assuming the position? If it is a major rebuild, that would entail trading assets such as Crosby and Malkin for future assets. If it is a partial rebuild, it might be trading only Malkin and keeping Crosby. If the owners wanted to stay as competitive as possible, it would most likely mean keeping both players. 

When KA assumed the GM position, he had a rebuild blueprint in mind. He was determined to trade our old core for future assets and elevate a newer younger core already on the roster. There is no question that the owner was on board when he hired KA to lead the hockey operation. 

Pittsburgh has been a cup contender for quite a while. Most people would consider them approaching the down cycle from a competitive standpoint. Recognizing where your team is in that cycle is what I was referring to when I described the situation as an inflection point. When Karmonos joined the Sabre organization, he knew exactly what the GM's plans were for the rebuild. He also knew that owner was on board to the GM's plan. If Karmonos is a serious candidate for the Penguin job, his views should align with how the owners want to proceed. If they don't, there would be problems right from the start. I'm sure someone as smart as he is in the business is aware of that. 

The jumping the gun is your last two sentences that I bolded.   Karmanos won't get the Pittsburgh job because the Sabres rebuild is a success.  It is too soon to conclude that.  He might get the job for many reasons, some of which includes his work in Buffalo, but the Sabres rebuild is still a work in progress. 

 

 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The jumping the gun is your last two sentences that I bolded.   Karmanos won't get the Pittsburgh job because the Sabres rebuild is a success.  It is too soon to conclude that.  He might get the job for many reasons, some of which includes his work in Buffalo, but the Sabres rebuild is still a work in progress. 

 

 

I understand what you are saying. However, I have a little different perspective on the Sabres rebuild than you do. There is no question that it isn't to the point of completion. We all agree on that. But my perspective/interpretation of success in Buffalo is that compared to where it started, and where it is now, this rebuilding process is a resounding success. No question there is more to do. But right now, I would deem it to be on course and a success. 

The organization was completely dismantled and rebuilt. The farm system that was considered to be shallow is now restocked to the point where it is rated one of the more talented systems. The old core has been dealt, and the return in assets was more than solid. There isn't one aspect on the ice or front office that has gone through a major overhaul isn't significantly upgraded. And I'm confident in saying that most outside observers would also acknowledge those improvements. The upgraded product on the ice underscores all those points. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by JohnC

[Thorny]

The organization wasn’t “completely dismantled and rebuilt.” Much of the rostered players were inherited. Even Granato was inherited. We can say a lot was changed without the hyperbole 

A huge part of the reason we are improving is because of Adams and his team. Another huge part of the reason is because we’ve been adding high first round picks for a decade and it’s reaching a tipping point 

[kas23]

9 hours ago, nucci said:

still don't need a president and GM. Who makes the final calls on roster decisions?

It would be a consensus, as it is now. I really don’t think KA is making any unilateral roster decisions as a TM or JB did. Look, this isn’t about day to day responsibilities. It’s about how to keep our FO intact if another team comes knocking to poach. Giving a person a promotion, via new title and increased pay, is reason enough to want to stay in Buffalo. People usually like what they do. They leave jobs when their boss is unbearable or they don’t feel appreciated. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, kas23 said:

It would be a consensus, as it is now. I really don’t think KA is making any unilateral roster decisions as a TM or JB did. Look, this isn’t about day to day responsibilities. It’s about how to keep our FO intact if another team comes knocking to poach. Giving a person a promotion, via new title and increased pay, is reason enough to want to stay in Buffalo. People usually like what they do. They leave jobs when their boss is unbearable or they don’t feel appreciated. 

True.  But when there are only 32 jobs above your current one, sometimes you leave a place you're really happy in because you don't know when or if that opportunity to move up will come around again.

[kas23]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

True.  But when there are only 32 jobs above your current one, sometimes you leave a place you're really happy in because you don't know when or if that opportunity to move up will come around again.

Correct. And if people want to poach Jason Karmanos, KA moves up to POHO and Karmanos gets one of those coveted 32 jobs. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

The organization wasn’t “completely dismantled and rebuilt.” Much of the rostered players were inherited. Even Granato was inherited. We can say a lot was changed without the hyperbole 

A huge part of the reason we are improving is because of Adams and his team. Another huge part of the reason is because we’ve been adding high first round picks for a decade and it’s reaching a tipping point 

It is hyperbole to say that the roster was completely dismantled because as you point out that wasn't the case. But it is not hyperbolic to say that there was a near total dismantling of the organization as it pertains to the front office and staff. The scouting department was not retained. The coaching staff, after Granato was named as the permanent replacement, was replaced. The Rochester staff was also let go. 

KA brought in Karmonos as his assistant GM and also gave him a lot of additional responsibilities, including designating him the Rochester GM. This franchise became  more reliant on analytics after he became the GM. The ethos and culture of this organization was dramatically changed. What I want to emphasize here is don't discount the near total rebuilding of the organization in this franchise's progress. 

You are right that the Sabres still retained a number of former first round draft picks. But let's look at how they were handled after a new GM was installed. The former players who formed the previous core who were high first round picks such as Eichel, Reinhart and to a lesser extent Risto. They were all dealt. And the remaining high first round draft picks such as Skinner, Tage and Dahlin replaced the departed core. Prior to KA, those players in the Krueger era were inexplicably stifled by Krueger and his outdated hockey philosophy. 

Credit has to be given to KA for not only dispatching the old core but also getting a fair return on them. And credit has to be given to KA for being smart enough to replace Krueger with Granato on an interim basis, and then on a more permanent basis. You are correct that this roster wasn't totally dismantled but it went through a major reshuffling. There were a lot of good organizational decisions made in that reshuffling of the roster. 

[Thorny]

25 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It is hyperbole to say that the roster was completely dismantled because as you point out that wasn't the case. But it is not hyperbolic to say that there was a near total dismantling of the organization as it pertains to the front office and staff. The scouting department was not retained. The coaching staff, after Granato was named as the permanent replacement, was replaced. The Rochester staff was also let go. 

KA brought in Karmonos as his assistant GM and also gave him a lot of additional responsibilities, including designating him the Rochester GM. This franchise became  more reliant on analytics after he became the GM. The ethos and culture of this organization was dramatically changed. What I want to emphasize here is don't discount the near total rebuilding of the organization in this franchise's progress. 

You are right that the Sabres still retained a number of former first round draft picks. But let's look at how they were handled after a new GM was installed. The former players who formed the previous core who were high first round picks such as Eichel, Reinhart and to a lesser extent Risto. They were all dealt. And the remaining high first round draft picks such as Skinner, Tage and Dahlin replaced the departed core. Prior to KA, those players in the Krueger era were inexplicably stifled by Krueger and his outdated hockey philosophy. 

Credit has to be given to KA for not only dispatching the old core but also getting a fair return on them. And credit has to be given to KA for being smart enough to replace Krueger with Granato on an interim basis, and then on a more permanent basis. You are correct that this roster wasn't totally dismantled but it went through a major reshuffling. There were a lot of good organizational decisions made in that reshuffling of the roster. 

That’s why I said KA was a huge part of the reason 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That’s why I said KA was a huge part of the reason 

On that issue we are in accord. One area where I have admiration for him is that he is more of a collaborator than a driver on issues. That approach works when you are secure enough to surround yourself with top notch people. His hiring of Karmonos, a more experienced front office  executive, is an example of not only surrounding yourself with quality staff but also listening to them. His hiring of Granato made a profound difference on the roster and team.