Why won't the Pegulas put money into this team?

[PerreaultForever]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The one player you can't criticize for earning his salary is Skinner. Krueger straitjacked Skinner to the point that he crippled him as a player. He may be more of a $7-8 million player but he's not a player I would focus on as being not worth the dollar vs production. 

Not now but what I was saying is Pegula looked at that contract after and changed his mind on spending big money. We're going back 2 years remember for the new plan. Before Skinner's rebirth in goal scoring. 

(I still think he's overpaid though, it's just not as grossly overpaid as it was. He's still a defensive liability)

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not now but what I was saying is Pegula looked at that contract after and changed his mind on spending big money. We're going back 2 years remember for the new plan. Before Skinner's rebirth in goal scoring. 

(I still think he's overpaid though, it's just not as grossly overpaid as it was. He's still a defensive liability)

On any team there are going to be players who are overpaid and players who are underpaid. There is never a perfect calibration between salary and production. What you want to avoid is being stuck with a long-term gilded contract where the production doesn't come close to matching the value of the contract. Skinner got the rich and extended contract because he is considered a high end goal scorer. That's exactly what he is doing. There are other targets to take aim on. He shouldn't be one of them. 

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

On any team there are going to be players who are overpaid and players who are underpaid. There is never a perfect calibration between salary and production. What you want to avoid is being stuck with a long-term gilded contract where the production doesn't come close to matching the value of the contract. Skinner got the rich and extended contract because he is considered a high end goal scorer. That's exactly what he is doing. There are other targets to take aim on. He shouldn't be one of them. 

No one is out of line for classifying Skinner as over paid.  It’s ok if you don’t want to talk about it, but he definitely is.

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Curt said:

No one is out of line for classifying Skinner as over paid.  It’s ok if you don’t want to talk about it, but he definitely is.

I didn't say people can't state a different position regarding his contract. What I did say is that I disagree with them.  

[sabremike]

KBC is a dilapidated crumbling dump and it's embarrassing that an NHL team plays in such a subpar arena. If you think this is unfair I challenge you to visit any other arena not named The Saddledome. It will hit you instantly just how much nicer any of these arenas are: For example Wells Fargo Center after the renovations makes KBC look worse than the Nassau Coliseum (UBS Arena makes KBC look worse than a portajohn that hasn't been cleaned in 3 years). The fact upgrading this dump is not a priority tells you what Pegula's priority is and it isn't the Sabres.

[Pimlach]

11 hours ago, Zamboni said:

 

 

disagree with the OP

What?   They have been a cap floor team for several years. Did you forget his Efficient, Economic, speech when he fired JBot and hired Adams?

The don’t spend big money on the Sabres.  Sure, he foolishly spent on free agents in the past.. Sure he extended some Core talent,  but they were bargain basement shoppers in the off season and at the trade deadline.  They took on salary to get to the cap floor.  

[thewookie1]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

What?   They have been a cap floor team for several years. Did you forget his Efficient, Economic, speech when he fired JBot and hired Adams?

The don’t spend big money on the Sabres.  Sure, he foolishly spent on free agents in the past.. Sure he extended some Core talent,  but they were bargain basement shoppers in the off season and at the trade deadline.  They took on salary to get to the cap floor.  

Then spent close to 100 mil on Thompson and Cozens

Their cap floor situation this year was more indicative of their roster's age.

[sabremike]

11 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

What?   They have been a cap floor team for several years. Did you forget his Efficient, Economic, speech when he fired JBot and hired Adams?

The don’t spend big money on the Sabres.  Sure, he foolishly spent on free agents in the past.. Sure he extended some Core talent,  but they were bargain basement shoppers in the off season and at the trade deadline.  They took on salary to get to the cap floor.  

Wonder when they will figure out the big secret to not losing lots of money on a hockey team: Don't miss the playoffs 12 seasons in a row.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Then spent close to 100 mil on Thompson and Cozens

Their cap floor situation this year was more indicative of their roster's age.

100 mil in the future and Not all at once and So what.  They have tons of cap room and those are their core players.  Can they spend less than the cap min?  No.  But they are at cap floor again this season because they didn’t add any good players besides their rookies. 
 

They stopped spending on the Sabres during Covid.  The rest of the Pegula Empire was hurting, the Sabres got gutted.  The entire FO, scouting and coaching staffs had to be rebuilt.  The Bills are getting all the money.  The free agents, signing bonuses, restructuring, and cap magic is all on the Bills.  The Sabres have to build from within, in a league that is 5 times harder for teams to draft and develop.  

They are literally the worst hockey owners the NHL had ever seen and by any team performance measure you can think off.  Good people, sure.   Look at the product over 12 years.  Terrible and embarrassing.  

Every night I pray they leave McDermott and Beane alone.  I have zero faith that can replace them adequately should they move on.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by Pimlach

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

100 mil in the future and Not all at once and So what.  They have tons of cap room and those are their core players.  Can they spend less than the cap min?  No.  But they are at cap floor again this season because they didn’t add and good players besides their rookies. 
 

They stopped spending on the Sabres during Covid.  The rest of the Pegula Empire was hurting, the Sabres got gutted.  The entire FO, scouting and coaching staffs had to be rebuilt.  The Bills are getting all the money.  The free agents, signing bonuses, restructuring, and cap magic is all on the Bills.  The Sabres have to build from within in a league that is 5 times harder for teams to draft and develop.  

They are literally the worst hockey owners the NHL had ever seen and by any measure you am think off.  Good people, sure.   Look at the product over 12 years.  Terrible and embarrassing.  

Every night I pray they leave McDermott and Beane alone.  I have zero faith that can replace them adequately should they move on.  

There have been far worse owners; least successful sure but the worst is certainly not true. Practically every Arizona owner and Chicago’s former owner, and the guy from Toronto easily trounce the Pegulas at being bad owners. 
 

Lack of success doesn’t necessarily mean ownership is bad; mind you, they aren’t the best by far, but to blame them for everything is akin to blaming a company owner for everything that occurs both internally and externally. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Then spent close to 100 mil on Thompson and Cozens

Their cap floor situation this year was more indicative of their roster's age.

and refusing to invest in real goaltending.  😎

[Curt]

7 hours ago, Pimlach said:

What?   They have been a cap floor team for several years. Did you forget his Efficient, Economic, speech when he fired JBot and hired Adams?

The don’t spend big money on the Sabres.  Sure, he foolishly spent on free agents in the past.. Sure he extended some Core talent,  but they were bargain basement shoppers in the off season and at the trade deadline.  They took on salary to get to the cap floor.  

This is the 2nd season that they have been a cap floor team.

The season after firing Botterill the team spent to the cap max on player salary.

[PASabreFan]

"this team" is the operative phrase. No one would deny spending in the past. It's taken as a given that being a cap floor team now is strategic and will not be modus operandi going forward. As in all things, we'll just have to wait and see.

No one in Sabres hockey has any credit in the bank. Show us the full flowering of the process.

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

There have been far worse owners; least successful sure but the worst is certainly not true. Practically every Arizona owner and Chicago’s former owner, and the guy from Toronto easily trounce the Pegulas at being bad owners. 
 

Lack of success doesn’t necessarily mean ownership is bad; mind you, they aren’t the best by far, but to blame them for everything is akin to blaming a company owner for everything that occurs both internally and externally. 

They should get credit for being nice, good, people and doing great things in Buffalo.  
 

Arizona, Chicago, Toronto - none have a 12 years playoff drought.  Their record is there to see. They are accountable for everything that happens internally for sure, and some of the external- like the teams poor perception throughout the NHL. 
 

They put themselves at the top of the Hockey Organization and that is were the final accountability is. 

1 hour ago, Curt said:

This is the 2nd season that they have been a cap floor team.

The season after firing Botterill the team spent to the cap max on player salary.

Several years can be two years.  

[SabresVet]

They've committed ~130M in contracts to Thompson, Cozens, and Samuelsson out to, I believe, the 2029-30 season.  I expect they'll sign Dahlin to the largest contract in team history within the next year.   

Attendance this season is up 60% this year and would expect they'll be more than a cap floor team next year.  

 

[LGR4GM]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

They spent money, but they spent it poorly. 

I think it's safe to say that Skinner crapping out after signing the big contract

Jeff Skinner 2 seasons post Krueger: 

63g, 68a, 147games, 0.891ppg. 

Skinner is worth 8mil but he is far from crap. 

33 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

They've committed ~130M in contracts to Thompson, Cozens, and Samuelsson out to, I believe, the 2029-30 season.  I expect they'll sign Dahlin to the largest contract in team history within the next year.   

Attendance this season is up 60% this year and would expect they'll be more than a cap floor team next year.  

 

They have added 3 ppl to the analytics department that once was just Jason "Don't Draft Point" Nightengale

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

They should get credit for being nice, good, people and doing great things in Buffalo.  
 

Arizona, Chicago, Toronto - none have a 12 years playoff drought.  Their record is there to see. They are accountable for everything that happens internally for sure, and some of the external- like the teams poor perception throughout the NHL. 
 

They put themselves at the top of the Hockey Organization and that is were the final accountability is. 

Several years can be two years.  

Again, team success does not equal ownership "goodness"

The owners don't play on the ice, and while the vast majority meddle to varying degrees, you can't fault them directly for missing the playoffs to a degree where their lack of success equals being bad owners.

To me a bad owner is based on their general behavior with the team and how they treat their "asset"

They have spent a lot of money on players, coaches, GMs, and other support staff. They obviously want a winner seeing as they have made GM moves in the past; if they were truly bad owners Regier or Murray would still be GM due to their contracts. The players, for the most part, are ok with the Pegulas and they have made an effort to make the players feel comfortable. 

Bad owners get into multiple feuds with players, refuse to pay stars, and deny fans the ability to watch games, among other things.

Again I'm not saying their great owners; but rather mediocre versus bad.

[SabresVet]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

. They have added 3 ppl to the analytics department that once was just Jason "Don't Draft Point" Nightengale

The cost of 3 employees within the analytics department is probably no more than 70% of the NHL minimum salary for a season.  

It'd be like signing 70% of Cody Eakin for next season.  Insignificant in the big picture.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Several years can be two years.  

You can speak as you like, of course, but in general, several is greater than 2.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/several

 

Personally, my general rule is

couple = 2

few = 3-4

several = 5-10

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

The cost of 3 employees within the analytics department is probably no more than 70% of the NHL minimum salary for a season.  

It'd be like signing 70% of Cody Eakin for next season.  Insignificant in the big picture.  

Karmanos is making good money I bet. That said, TP does not have to spend that, let's say 400k?, on these ppl. That is still money that is going out and that all adds up in the big picture. If you want to cut costs you do. I forget which baseball movie it is but the players have to pay for gatorade or something like that and the manager thinks it sucks but the owner wants to cut costs. In the grand scheme does the 10k a year on gatorade really matter? No but IMPO rich people tend to view any way to shave money off their bottom line as worth it. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by LGR4GM
I can't spell

[SabresVet]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Karmanos is making good money I bet. That said, TP does not have to spend that, let's say 400k?, on these ppl. That is still money that is going out and that all adds up in the big picture. If you want to cut costs you do. I forget which baseball movie it is but the players have to pay for gatorade or something like that and the manager thinks it sucks but the owner wants to cut costs. In the grand scheme does the 10k a year on gatorade really matter? No but IMPO rich people tend to view any way to shave money off their bottom line as worth it. 

I'll put it this way: even if it's 600k in new spending on analytics, that's a pittance for a franchise that has a budget probably approaching or beyond 75M.  That includes all coaches, players, front office employees, etc.  Pretty confident that's a low-end budget estimate as well.  

In other words, less than 1% of new spending.  

 

 

[Pimlach]

42 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Again, team success does not equal ownership "goodness"

The owners don't play on the ice, and while the vast majority meddle to varying degrees, you can't fault them directly for missing the playoffs to a degree where their lack of success equals being bad owners.

To me a bad owner is based on their general behavior with the team and how they treat their "asset"

They have spent a lot of money on players, coaches, GMs, and other support staff. They obviously want a winner seeing as they have made GM moves in the past; if they were truly bad owners Regier or Murray would still be GM due to their contracts. The players, for the most part, are ok with the Pegulas and they have made an effort to make the players feel comfortable. 

Bad owners get into multiple feuds with players, refuse to pay stars, and deny fans the ability to watch games, among other things.

Again I'm not saying they’re great owners; but rather mediocre versus bad.

multiple feuds - LaFontaine quit, Murray v. Kim problems, Brandon involvement, long time rank and file employees fired, 4 GMs and 6 coaches in 12 years -  check.  
Refuse to pay players - not really an issue but the O’Reilly bonus and Ullmark negotiations come to mind - check.  
Poor TV coverage, arena in shambles, poor fan experiences at home games - check.   

I get your point.  They are well intended and nice people.  They do a lot for Buffalo.  They want to do better have not found the right people.  Based on todays score card they have to rate as very bad at the job of Hockey Owners and Hockey President.  

 

[steveoat87]

Have they ever hired an outside consultant with real knowledge to get an overall assessment of the organization.  I know that this has been done a number of times in football.  Companies do this all the time, and maybe it would give them some insight.

[steveoat87]

I always find it interesting that owners of multiple teams rarely have success with both of them.  Look at Jim Dolan -- he owns the Knicks and The Rangers.  The Knicks have been a horror show until recently, while the Rangers have been well-run for multiple years.  And the Pegulas -- the Bills are overall a good organization while the Sabres are embarrassing.

[thewookie1]

21 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

multiple feuds - LaFontaine quit, Murray v. Kim problems, Brandon involvement, long time rank and file employees fired, 4 GMs and 6 coaches in 12 years -  check.  Perhaps... The 1st two are fully related to them, Brandon's role was originally a Ralph Wilson hire that they deemed good at his job until allegations ended that. I'm unsure in what context the firings are regarding to, the COVID firings? when they combined some of the Bills and Sabres's positions? Lastly, Regier + Ruff shouldn't count as they were long time workers who were holdovers from the previous ownership. They have hired 3 GMs: Murray, Bottrill, and Adams and 6 coaches: Rolston, Nolan, Bylsma, Housley, Krueger, and Granato. While certainly discombobulated, they fired coaches with multiple years left on their contracts which means they were willing to pay a coach not to stick around.  

Refuse to pay players - not really an issue but the O’Reilly bonus and Ullmark negotiations come to mind - check. The bonus to ROR is certainly a legitimate point but I doubt the Pegulas had anything to do with Ullmark; it is rarely wise to dump money on a goalie. Especially one with Ullmark's injury history.

Poor TV coverage, arena in shambles, poor fan experiences at home games - check.   TV Coverage is fine, an opinion on Dunleavy and Rob Ray can vary person to person but they do air every game. The arena isn't owned by the Pegulas; any upgrades have to be thrown into the political sphere and the Bills new stadium took priority. Poor fan experience can be again very subjective; a winning team is the most effective at fixing this. Their out of rink content is very good with Beyond Blue&Gold and their fun player short videos. The Sabres will never match up to Vegas or LAK with pregame and in-game fun. 

I get your point.  They are well intended and nice people.  They do a lot for Buffalo.  They want to do better have not found the right people.  Based on todays score card they have to rate as very bad at the job of Hockey Owners and Hockey President.