The Problem with NOT Trading for Defense

[TRIP65]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You still need 3 D with him. 

Samuelsson, Dahlin, Power

Joker, and ???? 

 

Dahlin/Sam

Power/Stillman(for now)

Jok/Lyubushkin

Clague/Bryson backup for now

Next offseason you get a Vet for Power, want to upgrade Lybushkin/Stillman, go make a trade too.

No one from drafts is coming in next year, NOT ready and we are too young already

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Dahlin/Sam

Power/Stillman(for now)

Jok/Lyubushkin

Clague/Bryson backup for now

Next offseason you get a Vet for Power, want to upgrade Lybushkin/Stillman, go make a trade too.

No one from drafts is coming in next year, NOT ready and we are too young already

I'm the one who told you that!

[LGR4GM]

Yes, we should upgrade boosh/Stillman, and add a vet. That's 2. 

I think we should pull in 1 more for depth.

[TRIP65]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This thread is about the defense! Not every move Adams had made, so yes we literally can. 

You have Dahlin, Power, Samulesonn, Jok, Lyubushkin, Stillman, Bryson, Clague

You can upgrade from Jok down but you will be giving up Savoie, Kulich, Peterka, Quinn or Krebs for top young defensiveman proven

Give Middllestat, Oloffson for a 3rd pair pairing

 

All this can only happen in Offseason, no waiver person better than what is on Roster.

[TRIP65]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'm the one who told you that!

Where?

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yes, we should upgrade boosh/Stillman, and add a vet. That's 2. 

I think we should pull in 1 more for depth.

So a man who we just trade for we should immediately trade again before we know what we got?

 

By the way Greenway just scored, maybe we should have traded him yesterday before we knew what we had?

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Where?

So a man who we just trade for we should immediately trade again before we know what we got?

 

By the way Greenway just scored, maybe we should have traded him yesterday before we knew what we had?

What are you talking about? Greenway has nothing to do with defense. 

26 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

We have 4 D prospects. We have roughly idk 12 forward prospects. We have 3 d and we need 6 so we will have to trade for defense because drafting them doesn't help us until 2026 at best

Right here, for the 2nd time I say if we draft D they aren't coming until 2026 at best. 

[TRIP65]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What are you talking about? Greenway has nothing to do with defense. 

Right here, for the 2nd time I say if we draft D they aren't coming until 2026 at best. 

So I can only stay in certain parameters you pick even though you throw trading a player we just got before we know what they can do?

So Greenway is a Winger but Sabres just got and it is a Stretch to bring him up since we just traded for him, Stillman has been out past two games?

Your the one who said trade Stillman!

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, TRIP65 said:

So I can only stay in certain parameters you pick even though you throw trading a player we just got before we know what they can do?

So Greenway is a Winger but Sabres just got and it is a Stretch to bring him up since we just traded for him, Stillman has been out past two games?

Your the one who said trade Stillman!

No I didn't. 

I said we should upgrade from them. Stillman and Boosh have been forced into the top 4 and I'd like someone better. 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

So I can only stay in certain parameters you pick even though you throw trading a player we just got before we know what they can do?

So Greenway is a Winger but Sabres just got and it is a Stretch to bring him up since we just traded for him, Stillman has been out past two games?

Your the one who said trade Stillman!

We're asking you to stay in the parameters of the thread. You're talking all the moves Adams made and if I want to trade Greenway. That's not relevant. 

[TRIP65]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

No I didn't. 

I said we should upgrade from them. Stillman and Boosh have been forced into the top 4 and I'd like someone better. 

So the Sabres should have 8 stud Defensiveman, at what cost? Meaning trades and/or Salary Cap hit. Wouldn't getting a GREAT Goalie be cheaper?

oh, sorry, got of subject of Defense again, take it back!

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, TRIP65 said:

So the Sabres should have 8 stud Defensiveman, at what cost? Meaning trades and/or Salary Cap hit. Wouldn't getting a GREAT Goalie be cheaper?

oh, sorry, got of subject of Defense again, take it back!

Calling Stillman and Boosh studs is not something I'm prepared to do. But yes 8 is the number, 7 would be the minimum. It's really about moving on from Bryson and Clague not Stillman and Boosh.

[TRIP65]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

We're asking you to stay in the parameters of the thread. You're talking all the moves Adams made and if I want to trade Greenway. That's not relevant. 

When your talking NOT drafting 3 Centers and drafting Defense instead than it does matter what Adams has done in whole. We have been TOP 10 scoring all year and you want to pretend any defensive upgrade by Adams doesn't effect what else Adams has done.

Haven't started talking about drafting offensive players or some obscure Topic, they are related.

Assuming you don't want to hurt our offense down the line just to get a 4th, 6th., 7th and 8th defensiveman as good as the Top 3 when hurt?

Maybe the 5th defensiveman can be traded too, JOK?

[WhenWillItEnd66]

How about just a defenseman that can actually play defense

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, TRIP65 said:

When your talking NOT drafting 3 Centers and drafting Defense instead than it does matter what Adams has done in whole. We have been TOP 10 scoring all year and you want to pretend any defensive upgrade by Adams doesn't effect what else Adams has done.

Haven't started talking about drafting offensive players or some obscure Topic, they are related.

Assuming you don't want to hurt our offense down the line just to get a 4th, 6th., 7th and 8th defensiveman as good as the Top 3 when hurt?

Maybe the 5th defensiveman can be traded too, JOK?

I don't follow

[Carmel Corn]

Just now, Stormcloudmember66 said:

How about just a defenseman that can actually play defense

Two please!!!

[TRIP65]

1 minute ago, Stormcloudmember66 said:

How about just a defenseman that can actually play defense

Yes we need someone next to Power that stays home in Offseason, Freeagent or trade appropriate, bye bye Bryson or Clague

[thewookie1]

8 hours ago, TRIP65 said:

When your talking NOT drafting 3 Centers and drafting Defense instead than it does matter what Adams has done in whole. We have been TOP 10 scoring all year and you want to pretend any defensive upgrade by Adams doesn't effect what else Adams has done.

Haven't started talking about drafting offensive players or some obscure Topic, they are related.

Assuming you don't want to hurt our offense down the line just to get a 4th, 6th., 7th and 8th defensiveman as good as the Top 3 when hurt?

Maybe the 5th defensiveman can be traded too, JOK?

??? You don't draft for need in the NHL as they aren't plug-n-play players more often than not. We could of drafted 3 D last year and be in no better situation as we reach this final stretch. Adams went Best Player in the 1st round and then reached on a goalie in the 2nd.

[Night Train]

It's one thing to trade for D. Yes, they need more.

It's a whole other thingy to actually play defense as a team.  The Goalie position needs to improve but the team as a whole has next to no idea how to sacrifice on D.

Float and watch over skating hard and crowding their man. Pay the price ? They make a minimal effort in their own end. 'That's our style " explanation no longer works. 10 goals will do that. 

[Taro T]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So you want to talk numbers. (Seattle only has 2 years of draft history.)

12 teams, besides the Sabres, drafted more than their allotment of 21 picks (aka 22 or more picks) over the last 3 years.  Those 12 teams averaged 8 D drafted during that period.  We drafted 5 on 27 picks.  Only the NYR drafted less with 3 D selected on 23 picks.

18 teams drafted 20 or less players during that period.  Even these teams averaged 6+ D selected during that period.  In fact, only 2 teams in this category drafted less D than the Sabres and they were Edm who took 3 D on 16 picks and Colorado who also took 3 D on 11 picks.  

Furthermore, there were 13 teams with an above allotment in 1 and 2 round picks (7 or more), besides the Sabres (The Sabres had 10 such picks).  Of this group, all but one took more D in the first 2 rounds than the Sabres (Wpg also drafted just 1, but on 7 picks and they still managed to tie our 5 overall on their 15 picks overall). The average number of D taken by these 13 teams was 3.  Ana took 5, NJ 4 and Ott 4. 

@dudacek There are no % or numbers that support the idea that KA has drafted enough D overall or in the 1st two rounds of the draft.  He has simply not done enough to stock the pipeline with D.  Had he signed a few college UFAs to supplement the pipeline, I wouldn't be belabouring the point, but he hasn't done that either.

You also asked about the opportunity to draft D when we drafted (and I'll add Goalies as well since that is another area of weakness).   The facts are that he has excellent opportunities.  D like Seamus Casey and Mattias Havelid, who had 1st rd grades by most analysts were still available when he reached for the goalie in the 2nd.  

When he reached for Rosen in 2021, 2 top-flight goalies were still available. Wallstadt had a top 10 grade.  Savoie's teammate Lambos was also available.  On the 2 2nd rd picks, why did both have to be forwards?  There were 5 D taken in the next 7 picks after Poltapov and another 5 in the next 8 picks after Kisakov.  2 of the players drafted after Kisakov are in the NHL including JJ Moser who already has 107 games under his belt.

I give him a pass for 2020 because of the lack of picks, but there is no excuse for taking only 4 D in 22 picks in 2021 and 2022. 

 

Actually there is an excuse.  Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power are a VERY solid core to the D.  And they were expected to be here now at the lastest.  As D are the slowest to develop (or at least are slower than F's for the vast majority), the need for additional lower pairing D has been and should be getting addressed through the trade and FA markets.

The C depth, when this plan was developed and started getting implemented was non-existant.  Adams knew Eichel and Reinhart were going away.  Mittelstadt was viewed as the 1 C, Cozens was in his 2nd year, Thompson was about to enter his 1st year as a C, and Asplund was the other hopeful C that they had.  (Not including Ruotsalainen as he was probably going to be a W if he ever made it successfully at the NHL.

With the recent drafting, they not only have not just 1 but likely 2 legit #1 D on the roster and with all the C's they've drafted when combined with the emergence of Thompson, they not only are in decent shape at C, they're pretty well set there.

Yes, try to get more high end D now, but they have the top 1/2 of the D pretty well set for the future and they look like they should have the F's pretty well set moving forward.  So, now, fix G - would love to see them draft this year or next whoever is the top Russian G prospect because those guys significantly are stocking the top of the NHL goaltending heirarichy.

Hopefully they get a D-man or 2 in those top 3 picks, bu they should be looking at bringing in the best talent they can regardless of position as they have been doing.  This team had essentially no pipeline 4 years ago.  They now have a very good F prospect pool and with Levi a reasonable G prospect pool.  (It's the current pool that leaves a lot to be desired.)   Expecting they start focusing a bit more on D now but maybe that's just hoping.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Taro T

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

Actually there is an excuse.  Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power are a VERY solid core to the D.  And they were expected to be here now at the lastest.  As D are the slowest to develop (or at least are slower than F's for the vast majority), the need for additional lower pairing D has been and should be getting addressed through the trade and FA markets.

The C depth, when this plan was developed and started getting implemented was non-existant.  Adams knew Eichel and Reinhart were going away.  Mittelstadt was viewed as the 1 C, Cozens was in his 2nd year, Thompson was about to enter his 1st year as a C, and Asplund was the other hopeful C that they had.  (Not including Ruotsalainen as he was probably going to be a W if he ever made it successfully at the NHL.

With the recent drafting, they not only have not just 1 but likely 2 legit #1 D on the roster and with all the C's they've drafted when combined with the emergence of Thompson, they not only are in decent shape at C, they're pretty well set there.

Yes, try to get more high end D now, but they have the top 1/2 of the D pretty well set for the future and they look like they should have the F's pretty well set moving forward.  So, now, fix G - would love to see them draft this year or next whoever is the top Russian G prospect because those guys significantly are stocking the top of the NHL goaltending heirarichy.

Hopefully they get a D-man or 2 in those top 3 picks, bu they should be looking at bringing in the best talent they can regardless of position as they have been doing.  This team had essentially no pipeline 4 years ago.  They now have a very good F prospect pool and with Levi a reasonable G prospect pool.  (It's the current pool that leaves a lot to be desired.)   Expecting they start focusing a bit more on D now but maybe that's just hoping.

Just on a tangent, the fact Cozens hadn’t even played in the NHL yet, Thompson had only played less than one full season, 66 games, as a Sabre, and that what Dahlin had committed to record was really good, when Adams took over, is support against the idea Botterill shouldn’t get credit, of some sort, for these additions, because of how they performed under him. These top shelf guys either didn’t play at all, played very little, or played really well. 

One can rule them out for other reasons, ie, “I’m not giving Botts credit for finishing last and taking the obvious guy in Dahlin”, sure, that’s more than fair. But these weren’t guys playing poorly under him. 

Though, given how poor a GM he was, I don’t doubt it very well could/would have got to a point where he DID squander them ala how he managed the key Eichel asset 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

Adams needs an off-season like NJ had where they brought in Marino, Graves and Vanecek. 2 solid dmen and a solidifying goalie and none of them broke the bank as far as acquisition.

[TRIP65]

On 3/10/2023 at 4:31 AM, thewookie1 said:

??? You don't draft for need in the NHL as they aren't plug-n-play players more often than not. We could of drafted 3 D last year and be in no better situation as we reach this final stretch. Adams went Best Player in the 1st round and then reached on a goalie in the 2nd.

I responding to someone else questioning NOT drafting defense. My point IS Exactly yours. Get the best players and if you need something yo0u don't have for Sabres or Rochester you trade. If you build the BESt Prospects you will NEVER get in trouble. 100% agree with you