Eichel thrown under the bus by Vegas HC Bruce Cassidy

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

My expectation is that he won't get over 70 games AND be up towards the top of PPG players.  He is a tough mofo and has played through a lot of injuries.  He could absolutely do so again.  That year he ended up 10th in scoring he had an  ~8 game nearly pointless stretch battling through a leg injury.

Just can't see him going relatively injury free for a full year without making some major changes to either his playing style or his training/conditioning regimen. 

Hope for his sake he can.  Don't need him to personally fail.  Don't need him to excel either, definitely not until after the Sabres have used that pick this offseason.  Liked watching him.  Like watching Tuch too.  There's a reason this kid usually avoids these threads.  You & @dudacek having a solid discussion was like a flame to a moth though.

For the record this all makes a lot of sense 

[Thorny]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

It is possible that he has a healthy period, we will see were he finishes.  I look at his draft year class and he is sliding down the list in goal/point production. He may not finish top 5 or even top 8 in that class.  

 

True 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

A lot of your designations are too arbitrary for me. “He needs to have multiple top 20 finishes”. Well he has a top 10 and a top 23. Ok. 

He “hasn’t had” multiple 80 point years. Really? That’s a pretty surface level claim that evaporates as soon as you see you can’t even slag him for missing the mark in ‘20 due to “injuries” - the league *literally stopped*.

I cannot stress this enough that that doesn’t fall under *for one reason or another*. No, it was an “act of god” anomaly. Framing it as “one reason or another” *is* in fact willfully skewing 
 

Jack WAS an 80 point guy that year. To suggest otherwise is a meaningless technicality. He has literally no bearing on the fact he didn’t reach 80. He was going to come in well above 

 

I think the key distinction here is "this is why Jack Eichel's career has been disappointing TO ME." 😄

I had expectations for what he would be or have accomplished by now that have not been met. They are generalities for the purpose of illustration, not a hard-and-fast checklist. And they are absolutely arbitrary.

Of course there are reasons and extenuating circumstances. Choosing not to enumerate them all is not 'willfully skewing'.

Are you disappointed in Jack Eichel's career to date? Has he met your expectations?

Edited January 28, 2023 by dudacek

[Indabuff]

I'm disappointed he never became the cornerstone of a foundation for the Sabres.   His harboring resentment towards the organization and fanbase, regardless of who might be right or who might be wrong,  chaps my hide.  So, although he doesn't know me, Jack Eichel can kiss my ass. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

We’ve had this discussion before and you know our positions have been/are aligned. I’ll continually be re-evaluating my position, of course. 

I think I want to say - for the first stretch of this season, the first quarter or whatever, I didn’t see much reason to shift it. Jack *was* living up to what should be expected of him. He was above point a game, scoring about on level with Tuch/top 20 scorer, and regardless of whether people wanted to acknowledge it, his defensive game was excelling. Those who know more than me had him in not just early MVP running but Selke running. 

But, his play from all accounts (and that of the team) seems to have dropped off of late, and not for an insignificant stretch. 

Eichel needs to pick up his game. He’s not good enough right now. 
 

Jack has been hurt. He was out of the line for a period of time. Is the injury plaguing him? I can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised. 

As far as changing positions on any issue, when the circumstances change that is what reasonable and open-minded people do. With respect to the Jack issue there are many people who are resentful of him because he wanted out. And it should be added that the GM also wanted him out.  There is an emotion that is colored by hostility whenever the Jack topic comes up. 

What I can say for sure is that no GM in the league, including KA, would have made a simple Eichel for Tuch trade at the time. I'm a Tuch fan and I have become a Krebs fan. In my view the trade worked out for both organizations. 

[Weave]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Jack has been hurt. He was out of the line for a period of time. Is the injury plaguing him? I can't say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised. 

As far as changing positions on any issue, when the circumstances change that is what reasonable and open-minded people do. With respect to the Jack issue there are many people who are resentful of him because he wanted out. And it should be added that the GM also wanted him out.  There is an emotion that is colored by hostility whenever the Jack topic comes up. 

What I can say for sure is that no GM in the league, including KA, would have made a simple Eichel for Tuch trade at the time. I'm a Tuch fan and I have become a Krebs fan. In my view the trade worked out for both organizations. 

I’m not convinced that trade worked out for Vegas.

[JohnC]

Just now, Weave said:

I’m not convinced that trade worked out for Vegas.

Last year, Jack was coming back from surgery. It's still too early to make a conclusive judgment on the trade. I'm more than happy how it has turned out for Buffalo. But that doesn't mean that from a Vegas perspective it wasn't or won't be a good deal. 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Weave said:

I’m not convinced that trade worked out for Vegas.

If they miss the playoffs or even don't go on a run, it absolutely did not, at least not the way it was immediately intended.

Jack was acquired to put a contender who had been to the final 3 of the prior 4 years over the top.

Edited January 28, 2023 by dudacek

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Jack's biggest problem was the bad injury to his neck and some others that have kept him from playing for a big chunk of time.  He is probably very rarely 100%.  When he is he id a dynamic player.

He was also setback by RaKru, as was everybody else.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

I think the key distinction here is "this is why Jack Eichel's career has been disappointing TO ME." 😄

I had expectations for what he would be or have accomplished by now that have not been met. They are generalities for the purpose of illustration, not a hard-and-fast checklist. And they are absolutely arbitrary.

Of course there are reasons and extenuating circumstances. Choosing not to enumerate them all is not 'willfully skewing'.

Are you disappointed in Jack Eichel's career to date? Has he met your expectations?

The conclusions you draw are reasonable, fair, but most importantly have an intrinsic logical consistency.

I think I just felt the need to key on the “no multiple 80 point seasons” thing because it’s in effect misleading and truly represents a case of it needing to be pointed out in an effort to be fair to the player. I would say the claim he hasn’t been an 80 point player twice is objectively misrepresenting the truest nature of the discussion- the circumstances by way of which he failed to reach the total that season are truly meaningless re: an evaluation of the player he was that season. McDavid wasn’t magically not a 100 point player that year because he didn’t hit the total. 

The relevance of “80 point player” is the specific connotation we all know it represents - 80 points over an *82 game frame*, injuries or not. ie There are still players akin to 80 point players in lockout seasons. What happened was an anomaly that deserves special consideration. It must be pointed out, imo, to retain the pursuit of objectivity. 

Furthermore, as you are framing by way of YOUR specific disappointment, I do not believe it to be the case that you, yourself, were disappointed, that season, with him in not hitting 80. At the time you would have accepted the circumstance and considered the goal satisfied. Is this incorrect? 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Hank]

Looking at just this season to date, I think it's fair to say that Tuch has outplayed Jack at less than half the cost. After we get the Vegas 2nd this year, I wish Jack good health and success. 

[K-9]

33 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If they miss the playoffs or even don't go on a run, it absolutely did not, at least not the way it was immediately intended.

Jack was acquired to put a contender who had been to the final 3 of the prior 4 years over the top.

Yep. He was touted as the missing piece, especially by the Vegas media. Seems like the honeymoon is ending though and I wonder if he is feeling that intense pressure of high expectations as a result. Cassidy didn’t do anything to help the situation by calling him out as Eichel has always been extremely moody and it’s easy to imagine him being an irritable prick like he was around here at times as a result. 

[kas23]

3 hours ago, Contempt said:

From a source I trust Stetson Bennett is kind of a douche as well fwiw.

Nobody can beat the cologne he makes though. Stetson drives the ladies mad. 

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

"Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard." - Tim Notke, a high school basketball coach

fify

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

I think the key distinction here is "this is why Jack Eichel's career has been disappointing TO ME." 😄

I had expectations for what he would be or have accomplished by now that have not been met. They are generalities for the purpose of illustration, not a hard-and-fast checklist. And they are absolutely arbitrary.

Of course there are reasons and extenuating circumstances. Choosing not to enumerate them all is not 'willfully skewing'.

Are you disappointed in Jack Eichel's career to date? Has he met your expectations?

Oh I asked you a question just now I suppose I should answer yours, if I want one to mine:

- I wouldn’t make a statement about being “disappointed” or “not disappointed” with his career to date.

I was satisfied with his career the first 5 seasons.

I am disappointed in the current trend line of his career. Trend line here is fundamental to me rather than an overarching statement devoid of context.

This is Sabrespace, for jeepers sakes. 

I am disappointed in his last 3 seasons. 

I am disappointed he has not been able to shake off the injury prone mantle within them. I was disappointed *for* him the 2 previous to this, for that reason. And I was disappointed to see that continued this season - he’s missed games. 

Finally, (assuming health now): I am disappointed in how he has played this season since returning from injury. He should be much better.
 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I do wonder what would have happened had Jbot just named DG the HC instead of hiring Rasputin as the HC. 

The team might have been more successful but the locker room still would not have been good.

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The conclusions you draw are reasonable, fair, but most importantly have an intrinsic logical consistency.

I think I just felt the need to key on the “no multiple 80 point seasons” thing because it’s in effect misleading and truly represents a case of it needing to be pointed out in an effort to be fair to the player. I would say the claim he hasn’t been an 80 point player twice is objectively misrepresenting the truest nature of the discussion- the circumstances by way of which he failed to reach the total that season are truly meaningless re: an evaluation of the player he was that season. McDavid wasn’t magically not a 100 point player that year because he didn’t hit the total. 

The relevance of “80 point player” is the specific connotation we all know it represents - 80 points over an *82 game frame*, injuries or not. ie There are still players akin to 80 point players in lockout seasons. What happened was an anomaly the deserves special consideration. It must be pointed out, imo, to retain the pursuit of objectivity. 

Furthermore, as you are framing by way of YOUR specific disappointment, I do not believe it to be the case that you, yourself, were disappointed, that season, with him in not hitting 80. At the time you would have accepted the circumstance and considered the goal satisfied. Is this incorrect? 

It's not incorrect, it's just outside the point I was trying to make and the discussion I was trying to have.

My point was "I expected Jack Eichel to have assembled a body of work by now that puts him solidly in the discussion of the top 10 players in the game. I am disappointed because I don't think he's done that."

Whether or not he would have had 2 80-point seasons if not for COVID doesn't sway that opinion. I wasn't trying to suggest "he's not even usually a point/game player." I was trying to suggest that he has never really put up remarkable full-season totals. A better way of expressing the point I was trying to reinforce with that example would be by rephrasing what I said in the earlier post: "He has only once cracked the top 20 in scoring." (Or twice the top 50)

Edited January 28, 2023 by dudacek

[DarthEbriate]

Yay! More Eichwalker talk.

Looking at tonight's stats vs. NYR... he only skated 15 shifts (hopefully not injured). If not injury-related, then the demotion is in full effect (12 minutes 5 on 5 and 3 minutes PP time).   -3 for what it's worth.   Cassidy's message was received loud and clear.

Edited January 28, 2023 by DarthEbriate

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It's not incorrect, it's just outside the point I was trying to make and the discussion I was trying to have.

My point was "I expected Jack Eichel to have assembled a body of work by now that puts him solidly in the discussion of the top 10 players in the game. I am disappointed because I don't think he's done that."

Whether or not he would have had 2 80-point seasons if not for COVID doesn't sway that opinion. I wasn't trying to suggest "he's not even usually a point/game player." I was trying to suggest that he has never really put up remarkable full-season totals. A better way of expressing the point I was trying to reinforce with that example would be by rephrasing what I said in the earlier post: "He has only once cracked the top 20 in scoring." (Or twice the top 50)

Right I know, I’ve accepted your stance that’s why I said the first thing in that post.

My point was that a great overarching argument doesn’t make a singular point within beyond the scope of contention, in the effort of objectivity. I digress. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

19 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Yay! More Eichwalker talk.

Looking at tonight's stats vs. NYR... he only skated 15 shifts (hopefully not injured). If not injury-related, then the demotion is in full effect (12 minutes 5 on 5 and 3 minutes PP time).   -3 for what it's worth.   Cassidy's message was received loud and clear.

Received but not heeded, me thinks 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Received but not heeded, me thinks 

Seems like your boy there is his own worst enemy.

[Thorny]

54 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Seems like your boy there is his own worst enemy.

Jack isn’t “my boy” anymore. (On a side note why isn’t Dahlin “my boy”? I went back and forth for months with the names of Sabres twitter like Chad and Kevin who, very uncharacteristically for them, were way wrong when asking if we had “already seen Dahlin’s ceiling” during the Krueger years. Plenty of the board was down on him too, let’s be real. I’ve talked as much or more about him, seeing as how I ramble on and on about just about anything even this very sentence in fact, that annoyingly just keeps going.)

I’ve “defended” Jack (See: take a stance different to many on the board, on various Eichel related discussions) because I’ve believed in the arguments I’ve wanted to make. I’ve felt certain things were being misrepresented based only on my personal opinion. I didn’t wage an interwebs conquest in service to proving he was great - wasn’t my intention. 

I can only hope to not present a hypocritical argument - if at any point it appears im shifting the goalposts due to bias, I’d like to be called out on it. I think / hope I’m being fair - the same principles that caused me to argue on “his” side of the argument have me saying he hasn’t been good enough this year.

It is what it is - I’m an open book. In reality, I’ve said this before, it was always when the attacks got really vulgar and personal that I truly was off put by it. YMMV.  

- - - 

I’d love to give a more detailed opinion on his effort or lack thereof in this recent stretch but it truth I don’t care enough to pay close attention. Seems dumb for quotes to go to the media from coach but what do I know. I’m the results guy. If he’s not hurt, he hasn’t been good enough. Full stop. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[nfreeman]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

It's actually the skill level of Tuch that has surprised me.

I knew he was a missile through the neutral zone, but he is better at entries than I thought, and smart, looked-off passes in full flight like the one to Thompson last night are something that he can do at an elite level. I didn't know he could bait guys the way he does to make plays.

But the one thing that has been a revelation is his "checking" – not defence, or physical punishment, but the actual act of taking a puck away from another player through a combination of speed, strength, hands and anticipation. I can't remember seeing a forward as talented in that area. Again, he baits guys.

Yes -- Tuch is a major, and almost unique, weapon on the forecheck.  That, combined with very good puck skills (albeit not quite elite) and hockey IQ makes him a fixture on the top line for as long as he has his legs IMHO. 

 

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

There’s no point saying “for one reason or another 8 years into his career” when we know for a fact he can’t “fully realize” his potential when he was still a young player developing in this league during the first big portion - no reason he shouldn’t be afforded the development ground all players are. He was on track. It would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise when we were viewing it that way up until COVID. He DID have his on-schedule breakthrough in 19-20. 

To make a stronger point I think we should look at the last 3 years, this is when it started to get off track, starting with the year he only played 18 games 

We can go back and forth on 80 points, development track, etc. but the fact remains:  for a guy who was supposed to be generational, Eichel has been a top-5 NHL player one out of his 8 seasons (and even that one was debatable, although not by me -- I thought he was awesome that year), and well outside the top 20 for the rest of them, including this year.

 

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Early on he was tracking to be MacKinnon, slightly better actually.  And watching him play was one of the few bright spots of being a Sabres fan.

But then the injuries got the better of him.  Just don't believe he'll ever at this point have another season where he both plays 70+ games & plays at a high level in the vast majority of them.  

It's a shame injuries have gotten the better of him, but until he has a year where he finally shakes them & gets back into the top 20, won't expect it will happen again.

So, when the effect of injuries is included, it's a no brainer the Sabres are better off w/ Tuch +.

The injuries are very relevant, both in the evaluation of Eichel's career and for that matter in the circumstances surrounding his trade, but either way they are an undeniable fact:  he gets hurt a lot, and availability matters.

What also matters is attitude.  We don't know for sure, of course, but there were plenty of reports, for attribution, from guys close to the team like Hammy and Rivet that Jack was a major DB here.  When he started playing for Vegas last year they immediately fell off the table and missed the playoffs, which was a pretty surprising and disappointing outcome.  Now, after his return from yet another injury, his new coach in Vegas is publicly unhappy with him.

BTW, they got dusted again tonight (in a game in which Jack was a minus-3 with zero points) and have now lost 7 of their last 9.

In many cases, talent isn't nearly enough.

[Thorny]

23 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Yes -- Tuch is a major, and almost unique, weapon on the forecheck.  That, combined with very good puck skills (albeit not quite elite) and hockey IQ makes him a fixture on the top line for as long as he has his legs IMHO. 

 

We can go back and forth on 80 points, development track, etc. but the fact remains:  for a guy who was supposed to be generational, Eichel has been a top-5 NHL player one out of his 8 seasons (and even that one was debatable, although not by me -- I thought he was awesome that year), and well outside the top 20 for the rest of them, including this year.

 

The injuries are very relevant, both in the evaluation of Eichel's career and for that matter in the circumstances surrounding his trade, but either way they are an undeniable fact:  he gets hurt a lot, and availability matters.

What also matters is attitude.  We don't know for sure, of course, but there were plenty of reports, for attribution, from guys close to the team like Hammy and Rivet that Jack was a major DB here.  When he started playing for Vegas last year they immediately fell off the table and missed the playoffs, which was a pretty surprising and disappointing outcome.  Now, after his return from yet another injury, his new coach in Vegas is publicly unhappy with him.

BTW, they got dusted again tonight (in a game in which Jack was a minus-3 with zero points) and have now lost 7 of their last 9.

In many cases, talent isn't nearly enough.

Is it 2019? No one is having the “Jack was supposed to be generational, is he?” conversation anymore. It’s over. He wasn’t generational. Not arguing with you. At some point you need to let that go though. If the topic is “did he live up to being generational”, like I said: it’s 2023. No one is interested in that argument, literally no one. It’s not even an effort thing - which might prevent him from being an elite player. As of right now, it is preventing him. It’s a talent thing - he doesn’t have generational talent. This became clear early. McDavid is a generational talent. 

If we are framing this by way of “personal disappointment” instead, as dudacek suggested, anyone realizing and accepting early on that the analysts were mis-touting him, and realize that using them being wrong against the player makes no sense, will have an easier job filtering that aspect out from their “disappointment” or lack thereof. 

Ive already expressed how I adjudge his seasons based on the expectations I actually had. Ymmv. He lived up to my expectations first 5, and the trend has been disappointing the last 3. Thats my analysis. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[mjd1001]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

BTW, they got dusted again tonight (in a game in which Jack was a minus-3 with zero points) and have now lost 7 of their last 9.

In many cases, talent isn't nearly enough.

Last year Jack had just returned from his surgery, so it might have been acceptable that he would have a slow return to form.  He got 0.74 points per game, which ranked him in a tie for 110th in the league.  Again, just back from surgery.

This year, well, he had the full offseason off, could train with his new team, had almost 1/2 season last year to 'recover' from his surgery...is on a 'better' team, getting top ice time minutes, and all the Power play time he can handle (tops on the team).  0.92 points per game, or 56th in the league.

Hes a good/very player in terms of point production. Thats who he is. He is not a great overall player by any stretch, and is only 'very good' in the offensive zone.  We are now 8 seaons into the "Jack Eichel NHL experience".  He has been on a couple teams, played with good teamates, had multiple different styles/coaches. He is who he is...a guy that you HOPE will finish in the top 25 places in terms of points.  But for whatever reason, injuries, wear and tear, just not being as good as everyone thought he is....that top 25 isn't even a guarantee anymore.