Eichel thrown under the bus by Vegas HC Bruce Cassidy

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, Contempt said:

From a source I trust Stetson Bennett is kind of a douche as well fwiw.

Spoken like a true Michigan, Tenn or Alabama fan

[Thorny]

54 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

How's the Eichel v. Tuch thing going?

 

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I feel like I started something unintentionally. I just was curious about the split stats between them and didn't have time to look. 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm glad you did.

The "bash Eichel to make us feel better" pile-on is something I've tried to avoid, but the idea that Tuch objectively might be a better player right now is interesting to me.

it's not piling on Eichel to admit that he is 8 years into his career and for one reason or another has never fully realized what he could be save for that glorious 60-game run in 2019-20.

To your question, Eichel has 34 points in 36 games, Tuch 54 in 48.

I get what you are saying about “fully realizing” but on a per-year basis he’s actually done that a few times, objectively. He lived up to reasonable expectations year 1, played a full season. 56 points as a rookie is outstanding, I don’t care he was tagged as generational, that’s not on him. His 82 point year certainly, he started it 21 and point a game was even more significant even a few years ago. And the 78 in 68 year you mentioned, of course. In truth, as I’m sure you remember, all the development comps were looking good until..well until COVID. It all changed. 

[dudacek]

It's actually the skill level of Tuch that has surprised me.

I knew he was a missile through the neutral zone, but he is better at entries than I thought, and smart, looked-off passes in full flight like the one to Thompson last night are something that he can do at an elite level. I didn't know he could bait guys the way he does to make plays.

But the one thing that has been a revelation is his "checking" – not defence, or physical punishment, but the actual act of taking a puck away from another player through a combination of speed, strength, hands and anticipation. I can't remember seeing a forward as talented in that area. Again, he baits guys.

[Thorny]

There’s no point saying “for one reason or another 8 years into his career” when we know for a fact he can’t “fully realize” his potential when he was still a young player developing in this league during the first big portion - no reason he shouldn’t be afforded the development ground all players are. He was on track. It would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise when we were viewing it that way up until COVID. He DID have his on-schedule breakthrough in 19-20. 

To make a stronger point I think we should look at the last 3 years, this is when it started to get off track, starting with the year he only played 18 games 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It's actually the skill level of Tuch that has surprised me.

I knew he was a missile through the neutral zone, but he is better at entries than I thought, and smart, looked-off passes in full flight like the one to Thompson last night are something that he can do at an elite level. I didn't know he could bait guys the way he does to make plays.

But the one thing that has been a revelation is his "checking" – not defence, or physical punishment, but the actual act of taking a puck away from another player through a combination of speed, strength, hands and anticipation. I can't remember seeing a forward as talented in that area. Again, he baits guys.

A big reason for that is the angles he takes combined with his wheels. Last night he was PKing and he almost slowed down to allow Schiefele(I think) go by him. But he angled him up then accelerated and used his stick to take the puck away.

[Contempt]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Spoken like a true Michigan, Tenn or Alabama fan

None of the above. Idgaf about college football at all

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

If the trade proposal would have simply been Eichel for Tuch, no GM in the league would have taken Tuch, including the Sabre GM. When all the calculations are done Vegas got what they wanted, and the Sabres got what they wanted. 

We’ve had this discussion before and you know our positions have been/are aligned. I’ll continually be re-evaluating my position, of course. 

I think I want to say - for the first stretch of this season, the first quarter or whatever, I didn’t see much reason to shift it. Jack *was* living up to what should be expected of him. He was above point a game, scoring about on level with Tuch/top 20 scorer, and regardless of whether people wanted to acknowledge it, his defensive game was excelling. Those who know more than me had him in not just early MVP running but Selke running. 

But, his play from all accounts (and that of the team) seems to have dropped off of late, and not for an insignificant stretch. 

Eichel needs to pick up his game. He’s not good enough right now. 
 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

When Krueger was coaching here I never ever thought I would use the argument “Yeah but Eichel isn’t playing  with elite players right now like Jeff Skinner and Tage Thompson And Rasmus Dahlin”😀 My God Ralph almost completely ruined the franchise. Granato needs a statue just for saving these guys careers and putting them on the right track. When Adams Fired Krueger and staff and named Granato intern coach I scratched my head. But it was a terrific move. His ability to develop young players and encourage them to play their game has been invaluable.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Flashsabre

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Flashsabre said:

When Krueger was coaching here I never ever thought I would use the argument “Yeah but Eichel isn’t playing  with elite players right now like Jeff Skinner and Tage Thompson And Rasmus Dahlin”😀 My God Ralph almost completely ruined the franchise. Granaries needs a statue just for saving these guys careers and putting them on the right track. When Adams Fired Krueger and staff and named Granato intern coach I scratched my head. But it was a terrific move. His ability to develop young players and encourage them to play their game has been invaluable.

I do wonder what would have happened had Jbot just named DG the HC instead of hiring Rasputin as the HC. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I get what you are saying about “fully realizing” but on a per-year basis he’s actually done that a few times, objectively. He lived up to reasonable expectations year 1, played a full season. 56 points as a rookie is outstanding, I don’t care he was tagged as generational, that’s not on him. His 82 point year certainly, he started it 21 and point a game was even more significant even a few years ago. And the 78 in 68 year you mentioned, of course. In truth, as I’m sure you remember, all the development comps were looking good until..well until COVID. It all changed. 

Yeah, I'm not trying to bash Eichel or ignore the context, more taking a look at the big picture.

I think it's safe to say we all thought he would be a perennial top-20 point-scorer, with multiple incursions into the top 5 like a Perreault or a Lafontaine.

His career is half over and his year-by-year rankings are: 58, 53, 52, 23, 10, 287, 334, 103

So much unrealized promise.

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yeah, I'm not trying to bash Eichel or ignore the context, more taking a look at the big picture.

I think it's safe to say we all thought he would be a perennial top-20 point-scorer, with multiple incursions into the top 5 like a Perreault or a Lafontaine.

His career is half over and his year-by-year rankings are: 58, 53, 52, 23, 10, 287, 334, 103

So much unrealized promise.

You just keep doing it, though. There’s no unrealized promise in the first 5 years. During the revelation that was the 19-20 season, we were (almost) to a man thrilled with where he was. His improved D game that year. Way better post game interviews. Top 10 league scorer. Go read the GDTs, I beg of anyone. 

Man just look at the numbers you posted - the clear change is at “287”. His career trajectory isnt a story of “failed promise” so far like you are painting - his career was on a good trajectory until COVID. *Now* things seem to have plateaued, in a sense. It’s up to him to get back to star level and not just “good player” which, to your point, would be a case of failed promise. 

But the narrative isn’t written yet. And I wouldn’t say his career is half over necessarily, either. 
 

Listing “58, 53, 52, 23, 10” with a bunch of disappointing numbers doesn’t serve the argument. Those numbers aren’t alike. Going from 58 (as an 18 year old rookie on a god awful team that tanked to get him by way of scorched earth roster) to 10, over the ages of *18-22*, looks like DEVELOPMENT to me. Any other player that’s what you’d say. 

To say otherwise is such a weird skew and now that I’ve pointed it out would be an odd choice of willfully blurring the context 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

40 minutes ago, Contempt said:

From a source I trust Stetson Bennett is kind of a douche as well fwiw.

I have heard a tale or two about Stetson. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Better talent: Eichel

Better player right now: I've seen Eichel hit higher highs, but I think Tuch is pretty clearly having a better season and consistency matters.

Better asset: Tuch rather easily, considering Eichel's run of health issues and the intangibles of each, but most importantly Tuch's cap hit of less than half Eichel's

Better player for the Buffalo Sabres organization?  Tuch in a landslide

Not posting this because of any ill will toward Eichel. I always expected to lose any Eichel trade. The gains would be fresh air and cap space, with the hope one of the 'futures' might surprise and make up for the talent gap.

But Eichel continues to fall short of what he could be and Tuch has been an on-ice revelation.

I was going to post what you have in bold almost verbatim.  If we learned anything from the rebuild(s) it is that evaluating a players fit in the organizations culture is critical.  I expect that Adams will account for this and will do his homework before adding a player from outside.  
 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Pimlach

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Listing “58, 53, 52, 23, 10” with a bunch of disappointing numbers doesn’t serve the argument. Those numbers aren’t alike. Going from 58 (as an 18 year old rookie on a god awful team that tanked to get him by way of scorched earth roster) to 10, over the ages of *18-22*, looks like DEVELOPMENT to me. Any other player that’s what you’d say. 

To add: not only is that development, it’s excellent development - it’s not common to see linear increase like that year over year. Again, the trajectory isn’t one telling of “failed promise” all along the way: it’s actually telling a much more interesting story- that of a career that appears to have been going along well, but then hit a huge speed bump. 

Will be fascinating to see how it goes from here. But I’m not going to re-write what actually happened the first 5. We Sabres fans knew the context, the team context as a whole those years. We didn’t support and defend Jack online (Before things went south, yes, I know) because we are dumb biased fans: we know hockey. @Taro Twas right that the MacKinnon track for long remained in tact. We don’t need to sell out our old good faith arguments. 

Somewhere along the way, that DID change. I repeat: Jack is not good enough right now. Remains to be seen if he ever gets back to where he should be. Let’s see if he does have a dog in him - cause he better show it now or I’ll have been mistaken about the player he could become. 
 

I don’t need to re-write the past to say that 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You just keep doing it, though. There’s no unrealized promise in the first 5 years. During the revelation that was the 19-20 season, we were (almost) to a man thrilled with where he was. His improved D game that year. Way better post game interviews. Top 10 league scorer. Go read the GDTs, I beg of anyone. 

Man just look at the numbers you posted - the clear change is at “287”. His career trajectory isnt a story of “failed promise” so far like you are painting - his career was on a good trajectory until COVID. *Now* things seem to have plateaued, in a sense. It’s up to him to get back to star level and not just “good player” which, to your point, would be a case of failed promise. 

But the narrative isn’t written yet. And I wouldn’t say his career is half over necessarily, either. 
 

Listing “58, 53, 52, 23, 10” with a bunch of disappointing numbers doesn’t serve the argument. Those numbers aren’t alike. Going from 58 (as an 18 year old rookie on a god awful team that tanked to get him by way of scorched earth roster) to 10, over the ages of *18-22*, looks like DEVELOPMENT to me. Any other player that’s what you’d say. 

To say otherwise is such a weird skew and now that I’ve pointed it out would be an odd choice of willfully blurring the context 

Early on he was tracking to be MacKinnon, slightly better actually.  And watching him play was one of the few bright spots of being a Sabres fan.

But then the injuries got the better of him.  Just don't believe he'll ever at this point have another season where he both plays 70+ games & plays at a high level in the vast majority of them.  

It's a shame injuries have gotten the better of him, but until he has a year where he finally shakes them & gets back into the top 20, won't expect it will happen again.

So, when the effect of injuries is included, it's a no brainer the Sabres are better off w/ Tuch +.

[Thorny]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I have heard a tale or two about Stetson. 

All good stories deserve embellishment 

[dudacek]

21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You just keep doing it, though. There’s no unrealized promise in the first 5 years. During the revelation that was the 19-20 season, we were (almost) to a man thrilled with where he was. His improved D game that year. Way better post game interviews. Top 10 league scorer. Go read the GDTs, I beg of anyone. 

Man just look at the numbers you posted - the clear change is at “287”. His career trajectory isnt a story of “failed promise” so far like you are painting - his career was on a good trajectory until COVID. *Now* things seem to have plateaued, in a sense. It’s up to him to get back to star level and not just “good player” which, to your point, would be a case of fails promise. 

But the narrative isn’t written yet. And I wouldn’t say his career is half over necessarily, either 

 

I'm not arguing against your point. He very much 'tracked' over the first half of his career.

But after 8 years, I expected Jack Eichel to have a body of work that cemented him in the conversation of "top 10 players in the NHL". That hasn't happened.

To be a Perreault or Lafontaine, he should have had that "peak year" as top 5 scorer by now. It hasn't happened. He should have had multiple top-20 finishes in scoring. That hasn't happened. Multiple 80-point seasons. That hasn't happened. Even if he had stayed on for a healthy 80 points this year, that would still be disappointing to me. With him in his prime years and scoring way up the way it is, he should be gunning for 100 right now.

He climbed to the edge of the table of "best in the game" and instead of staying there for 8 or 9 of the next 10 years, he's fallen off it altogether.

He's less than I thought he would be and think he should be, given his talent.

And yes, he still has plenty of time to change the narrative.

Edited January 28, 2023 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

Jack Eichel is currently on track to have less goals and points than Tage Thompson does right now. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Early on he was tracking to be MacKinnon, slightly better actually.  And watching him play was one of the few bright spots of being a Sabres fan.

But then the injuries got the better of him.  Just don't believe he'll ever at this point have another season where he both plays 70+ games & plays at a high level in the vast majority of them.  

It's a shame injuries have gotten the better of him, but until he has a year where he finally shakes them & gets back into the top 20, won't expect it will happen again.

So, when the effect of injuries is included, it's a no brainer the Sabres are better off w/ Tuch +.

I wouldn’t bet against him playing another 70 game season. We tend to live and die by the moment but there’s a ton of track left. He’s a year older than Tage Thompson - there’s a lot left to be written. He’s not old. He’s not hockey old, even 

For jeepers sake Skinner is having his best season THIS year 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I'm not arguing against your point. He very much 'tracked' over the first half of his career.

But after 8 years, I expected Jack Eichel to have a body of work that cemented him in the conversation of "top 10 players in the NHL". That hasn't happened.

To be a Perreault or Lafontaine, he should have had that "peak year" as top 5 scorer by now. It hasn't happened. He should have had multiple top-20 finishes in scoring. That hasn't happened. Multiple 80-point seasons. That hasn't happened. Even if he had stayed on for a healthy 80 points this year, that would still be disappointing to me. With the him in his prime years and scoring way up the way it, he should be gunning for 100 right now.

He climbed to the edge of the table of "best in the game" and instead of staying there for 8 or 9 of the next 10 years, he's fallen off it altogether.

He's less than I thought he would be and think he should be, given his talent.

And yes, he still has plenty of time to change the narrative.

Wait, your barometer is Perreault? 

He’s not Perreault. Coulda saved me a ton of words 

Yes, I agree, his last 3 years have been disappointing. The first 2 due to injury, the latest due to the recent stretch which, for me, represents the first undeniable, “well wait just a second, here.”

[Thorny]

A lot of your designations are too arbitrary for me. “He needs to have multiple top 20 finishes”. Well he has a top 10 and a top 23. Ok. 

He “hasn’t had” multiple 80 point years. Really? That’s a pretty surface level claim that evaporates as soon as you see you can’t even slag him for missing the mark in ‘20 due to “injuries” - the league *literally stopped*.

I cannot stress this enough that that doesn’t fall under *for one reason or another*. No, it was an “act of god” anomaly. Framing it as “one reason or another” *is* in fact willfully skewing 
 

Jack WAS an 80 point guy that year. To suggest otherwise is a meaningless technicality. He has literally no bearing on the fact he didn’t reach 80. He was going to come in well above 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I wouldn’t bet against him playing another 70 game season. We tend to live and die by the moment but there’s a ton of track left. He’s a year older than Tage Thompson - there’s a lot left to be written. He’s not old. He’s not hockey old, even 

For jeepers sake Skinner is having his best season THIS year 

My expectation is that he won't get over 70 games AND be up towards the top of PPG players.  He is a tough mofo and has played through a lot of injuries.  He could absolutely do so again.  That year he ended up 10th in scoring he had an  ~8 game nearly pointless stretch battling through a leg injury.

Just can't see him going relatively injury free for a full year without making some major changes to either his playing style or his training/conditioning regimen. 

Hope for his sake he can.  Don't need him to personally fail.  Don't need him to excel either, definitely not until after the Sabres have used that pick this offseason.  Liked watching him.  Like watching Tuch too.  There's a reason this kid usually avoids these threads.  You & @dudacek having a solid discussion was like a flame to a moth though.

[Pimlach]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I wouldn’t bet against him playing another 70 game season. We tend to live and die by the moment but there’s a ton of track left. He’s a year older than Tage Thompson - there’s a lot left to be written. He’s not old. He’s not hockey old, even 

For jeepers sake Skinner is having his best season THIS year 

It is possible that he has a healthy period, we will see were he finishes.  I look at his draft year class and he is sliding down the list in goal/point production. He may not finish top 5 or even top 8 in that class.  

 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You & @dudacek having a solid discussion was like a flame to a moth though

Ya. That’ll happen. 
 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Thorny