GDT: Sabres @ Blackhawks, 1/17/23, 8:30 pm, ESPN+ and MSG

[PASabreFan]

43 minutes ago, K-9 said:

It isn’t one god damned straw; it’s fifty years of straws. That’s a lot of straws and tens of thousands of dollars. There is nothing sudden about this so I’m bemused by your bemusement as well. 

Here’s what it looks like to me: this is a team full of players content with just playing hockey. No desperation, no realization that they are in a playoff race and little concern if they make it or not. They are using “development” as a crutch. And that includes Granato. So pardon me if that’s worn thin at this point. The least they can do is care as much as I do. 

That's the culture that has been created. Overcoming it will be enormously difficult IMHO. Case in the point the past several games. They should have been so hungry to close in on a playoff position that they looked like it was Game 7 of the final. But they have no clue what a big game is or how to approach one. It comes from Granato, sorry. He also has no clue how to perform under pressure.

Edited January 18, 2023 by PASabreFan

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That's the culture that has been created. Overcoming it will be enormously difficult IMHO. Case in the point the past several games. They should have been so hungry to close in on a playoff position that they looked like it was Game 7 of the final. But they have no clue what a big game is or how to approach one. It comes from Granato, sorry. He also has no clue how to perform under pressure.

I agree entirely. The last several games, especially. That was “moving day” and they didn’t show up when Donnie G should have been convincing them that the time is now and they needed to play with desperation. “Oh, but they hung tough with Seattle and Winnipeg. They can compete with the good teams.” That is horse crap because teams that compete with good teams don’t get shut out at home by bad teams and give up two goal leads in the third to the worse teams. 

We all know they need better goaltending and D depth. That they need experience and maturity. But what they need more than anything is an infusion of Give A F**k. 

[Gatorman0519]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Check out the Seals/Barons.  You may want to revise that statement.

Their high watermark was 69 points in 76 games in their 2nd season.  They only lasted 11 years, but in the year they merged w/ the No Stars they still couldn't top that 69.  4 seasons under 50 points w/ the low point being 36.

Yes, they made the playoffs twice, but only because 4 of the 6 expansion Western Conference teams got into the playoffs.  If only 1/2 the league made the playoffs (like now & when the Aisles entered the league) using the late 70's playoff seedings (top 12 of 18 regardless of conference) their best squad would've missed the playoffs by 8 points.

 

And not quite the same, but definitely similar, the Wings had 15 losing seasons out of 17 & only made the playoffs twice in that span.  They had 4 more years of losing records after that, but due to lucking into the Norris actually got into the playoffs 3 of those years.

In the modern NHL, no team has gone more than 10 years. We are going on 13.  Historically compared to other franchises, we have one of the worst records and least playoff appearances. It’s actually staggering compared to most other teams that have been around as long. 

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

In the modern NHL, no team has gone more than 10 years. We are going on 13.  Historically compared to other franchises, we have one of the worst records and least playoff appearances. It’s actually staggering compared to most other teams that have been around as long. 

In the modern NHL, now that only 50% of teams make the playoffs rather than the historical 66.7% or the 80's 76%+ making the playoffs, the Sabres historical run of ineptitude will be broken.  Quite likely in less than a dozen years - looking at you Arizona.

And, actually, because the Sabres were a model of regular season success for ~40 years they don't have one of the worst records w/ the least playoff appearances.  They're middle of the **** pack now, which should never have happened.

[Gatorman0519]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

In the modern NHL, now that only 50% of teams make the playoffs rather than the historical 66.7% or the 80's 76%+ making the playoffs, the Sabres historical run of ineptitude will be broken.  Quite likely in less than a dozen years - looking at you Arizona.

And, actually, because the Sabres were a model of regular season success for ~40 years they don't have one of the worst records w/ the least playoff appearances.  They're middle of the **** pack now, which should never have happened.

I have a bit different view. The mid to late 70’s, despite all that talent only made one true cup run. The 80’s were the infamous one and done years. The 90’s were probably the best based on having one of the greatest net minder’s of all time but failed because we didn’t build enough offensive depth. The 2000’s we had two great years and management’s ineptitude destroyed the team as fast as they made it. And since it’s been an unmitigated disaster with no true end in sight. 
 

 

[Weave]

52 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That's the culture that has been created. Overcoming it will be enormously difficult IMHO. Case in the point the past several games. They should have been so hungry to close in on a playoff position that they looked like it was Game 7 of the final. But they have no clue what a big game is or how to approach one. It comes from Granato, sorry. He also has no clue how to perform under pressure.

Granato is only a piece of why they came out flat during what should be a playoff push.  This roster is loaded with players that have never been there.  I think our lone exceptions are Tuch and Anderson?  Noone else on this team knows how to recognize when it is time to hammer down because none of them have seen it before.

This is the risk of “not blocking the kids” with a handful of proven vets.

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

I have a bit different view. The mid to late 70’s, despite all that talent only made one true cup run. The 80’s were the infamous one and done years. The 90’s were probably the best based on having one of the greatest net minder’s of all time but failed because we didn’t build enough offensive depth. The 2000’s we had two great years and management’s ineptitude destroyed the team as fast as they made it. And since it’s been an unmitigated disaster with no true end in sight. 
 

 

Which is fine.

But it doesn't make your earlier statements about the Sabres throughout their history being one of the worst franchises nor their having the fewest playoff appearances accurate.

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

IMHO, the team's biggest weakness all season has been defencive zone coverage.  People are not coming down the slot wide open anymore, but players are still finding themselves wide open near the goal, ready for a pass.

IMHO, this is Granato deciding that players play without fear and be more aggressive getting up ice.  Defence is taught, but clearly it is not emphasised as much in practice.  It points to a development year with a lot of exciting play, but with the ups and downs that come with that approach.  The question becomes when does the coaching staff think that players have developed enough that it then becomes time to work on defencive play more extensively.

I also imagine the current lack of practice matters too.

The flaw here is that playing solid defensive is as much part of development as being fearless, fast, and furious in the offensive game. 

Thinking back to that National TV game on TNT, when they blew up Columbus.  Every hockey guy in that studio said the same thing - they have speed and offensive skill, they need to emphasize the defensive part of the game now.  

Last night we scored in the last minute of the first period to take a lead, then we scored a shorty for insurance in the 2nd.  A good team finishes the 3rd period by clamping down, strangling the opponents zone entries, and forcing errors.  Instead we laid back and gave up two cheesy goals to blow the 3rd period.  Then they coasted around in the OT, showboating with the puck only to lose in OT and bring home a hard earned L.   

[Pimlach]

35 minutes ago, Weave said:

Granato is only a piece of why they came out flat during what should be a playoff push.  This roster is loaded with players that have never been there.  I think our lone exceptions are Tuch and Anderson?  Noone else on this team knows how to recognize when it is time to hammer down because none of them have seen it before.

This is the risk of “not blocking the kids” with a handful of proven vets.

Agree to a point.  Most of the kids played at the highest competitive levels before turning pro so they know about playoffs and pressure.   But I will agree that the NHL level is another world.   The hitting, grabbing, holding and hooking are part of it. 

Which might be why Dahlin got upset that he was held and hooked - it is going to happen a lot more.  

[dudacek]

43 minutes ago, Weave said:

Granato is only a piece of why they came out flat during what should be a playoff push.  This roster is loaded with players that have never been there.  I think our lone exceptions are Tuch and Anderson?  Noone else on this team knows how to recognize when it is time to hammer down because none of them have seen it before.

This is the risk of “not blocking the kids” with a handful of proven vets.

What's odd about this is that the two you cited — Tuch and Anderson — had two of their weakest efforts of the year.

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, inkman said:

Game sucked but I feel like many people forget what this teams expectations were for the season. Everyone knew coming in that they were several pieces short of being a good team.  Then they won some games in electrifying fashion and now most people are incredulous as to how the Sabres can lose these games.  
 

I got your answer. This team was never that good.  They are still missing several pieces they need to get over the hump.  The kids are still learning NHL hockey, zone coverage and defensively responsibilities.  This team is almost exactly where they were predicted to be.  On the fringe of the playoffs, most likely in the outside looking in.   

Pretty much. I don’t “like” it, but where the team is pacing to finish right about now is in line with reasonable expectations pre-season based on the composition of the roster. Mid-80s. It’s not on the higher end of expectations, but it falls within them.

I will say, and I said this at the start of the season, that there is a line by way of which if they don’t meet it, I think the result can be classified as a “ objective disappointment”. I think they finish above that line, but we’re far from out of the woods where it’s concerned: the 81 point mark of 7 years ago.

If we don’t finish .500, the season was a disappointment and we should have been better. It would be a mis-fire, overall, for the rebuild. Not saying it couldn’t make up the ground next season, but I’d deem it behind schedule certainly and a little concern would not be misplaced 

8 hours ago, Weave said:

Define fringe.

I thought about this a bit this morning.  Would all y’all be satisfied if the team finished about the same as how it finished the final 1/3 of last season?  And if so, why?  Why would we be OK with this team essentially not improving over the last 25 or so games from last year?

The concern I continue to have is, learning how to adapt your game to win is every bit as much a part of player development as the other stuff coach seems to be emphasizing.  I’m concerned that the team is doing a disservice to player development by not changing gameplans to react to the change in the game as the season progresses.

Someone somewhere mentioned we are the Leafs South.  Maybe a poor mans version, but yeah, that seems accurate right about now.

I don’t think we’re the Leafs. Much better cap situation.

Granted: I’d take it. Winning that much would be fun 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

It isn’t one god damned straw; it’s fifty years of straws. That’s a lot of straws and tens of thousands of dollars. There is nothing sudden about this so I’m bemused by your bemusement as well. 

Here’s what it looks like to me: this is a team full of players content with just playing hockey. No desperation, no realization that they are in a playoff race and little concern if they make it or not. They are using “development” as a crutch. And that includes Granato. So pardon me if that’s worn thin at this point. The least they can do is care as much as I do. 

Just on a tangent here: there definitely comes a day for every fan when they realize fans care more, that they live and die by the results more than the professionals being paid to achieve those results. This is the unclouding of sports naïveté. This is because those professionals are workers. Their primary transaction is complete after pay-to-play. There will always be those that tout “for the love of the game”, but one day everyone realizes we project our own passions onto what at the end of the day is merely an entertainment product 

It’s just the truth. It’s not exactly dour: we find our kin on websites like this. 

The camaraderie among fellow fans and the journey along the way really is what it’s all about and the only thing that makes it all worth it 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Pretty much. I don’t “like” it, but where the team is pacing to finish right about now is in line with reasonable expectations pre-season based on the composition of the roster. Mid-80s. It’s not on the higher end of expectations, but it falls within them.

I will say, and I said this at the start of the season, that there is a line by way of which if they don’t meet it, I think the result can be classified as a “ objective disappointment”. I think they finish above that line, but we’re far from out of the woods where it’s concerned: the 81 point mark of 7 years ago.

If we don’t finish .500, the season was a disappointment and we should have been better. It would be a mis-fire, overall, for the rebuild. Not saying it couldn’t make up the ground next season, but I’d deem it behind schedule certainly and a little concern would not be misplaced 

I don’t think we’re the Leafs. Much better cap situation.

Granted: I’d take it. Winning that much would be fun 

Have predicted low 90's since the offseason as an expectation w/ an outside chance at the playoffs; kept the expectation there during the 0-8 stretch and during the hot streak; & have seen nothing to say low 90's isn't where they'll end up.  (Last night's stinker not withstanding.)

Could be off (it'll make PA's year, especially if they're worse) but not expecting it.  (Hoping it's about 8 points too low of an expectation, but doubt it.)

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

That's the culture that has been created. Overcoming it will be enormously difficult IMHO. Case in the point the past several games. They should have been so hungry to close in on a playoff position that they looked like it was Game 7 of the final. But they have no clue what a big game is or how to approach one. It comes from Granato, sorry. He also has no clue how to perform under pressure.

Disagree somewhat. They know what big games are: it’s just that they’ve collectively decided the big games aren’t measured by key points accumulation and standings positioning, like normal, but rather the sexy event games that dominate the national media (as far as hockey can) like when Eichel makes his return or we have nice new unis. They ARE capable of balling all out when they have that motivation, it’s just that they clearly aren’t focused, quite yet, (next season?) on the macro, overall result. 

I think we’ll see more “we absolutely need these points” efforts when points, the results, are actually the goal full stop - only when results are the main goal will simply achieving points be enough to sell-out for. 
 

Right now they are measuring process and dialling up the “meaning”, the must wins, when the opportunity for culture bonding presents itself- the players clearly like eachother and rally around those games 

1 hour ago, Gatorman0519 said:

In the modern NHL, no team has gone more than 10 years. We are going on 13.  Historically compared to other franchises, we have one of the worst records and least playoff appearances. It’s actually staggering compared to most other teams that have been around as long. 

The 3 or 4 last place championships add to the argument. Those are Montana numbers 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

That's the culture that has been created. Overcoming it will be enormously difficult IMHO. Case in the point the past several games. They should have been so hungry to close in on a playoff position that they looked like it was Game 7 of the final. But they have no clue what a big game is or how to approach one. It comes from Granato, sorry. He also has no clue how to perform under pressure.

 

27 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Disagree somewhat. They know what big games are: it’s just that they’ve collectively decided the big games aren’t measured by key points accumulation and standings positioning, like normal, but rather the sexy event games that dominate the national media (as far as hockey can) like when Eichel makes his return or we have nice new unis. They ARE capable of balling all out when they have that motivation, it’s just that they clearly aren’t focused, quite yet, (next season?) on the macro, overall result. 

I think we’ll see more “we absolutely need these points” efforts when points, the results, are actually the goal full stop - only when results are the main goal will simply achieving points be enough to sell-out for. 
 

Right now they are measuring process and dialling up the “meaning”, the must wins, when the opportunity for culture bonding presents itself- the players clearly like eachother and rally around those games 

I go back once again to the philosophy underscoring this rebuild: the principles of the US development program.

The program has had amazing success developing elite talent like Matthews, the Tkachuk boys, the Hughes brothers, Adam Fox, Charlie McAvoy, Thompson, Tuch and Eichel.

Are these guys winners?

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I go back once again to the philosophy underscoring this rebuild: the principles of the US development program.

The program has had amazing success developing elite talent like Matthews, the Tkachuk boys, the Hughes brothers, Adam Fox, Charlie McAvoy, Thompson, Tuch and Eichel.

Are these guys winners?

I don’t really have any doubts on the character of the players on the team. At least not before I see them fold in a playoff series. That is to say, I don’t think they are “missing” something. 

Any perceived or actual “lack of competitiveness”, if it does exist, would imo be way of choice, as I outlined.  

It’s hard to say if, how, that presents itself, or if it’s even accurate. Too many variables in any game or loss. My position here I think comes down to my gun-to-head reaction to the question of whether or not the conscious prioritization of development, as primary focus, with traditional results as secondary, potentially takes away from their willingness to truly empty the tank to achieve those results, which again are a secondary goal. 

The logical answer here as far as I can judge must be “yes”. Mostly because we are dealing with not robots but human beings. Of course, it’s based on the principle development, not winning, was the *utmost* priority this season: but I think that has been accurately established based on quotes from Adams, Granato, and Co

Edited January 18, 2023 by Thorny

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The flaw here is that playing solid defensive is as much part of development as being fearless, fast, and furious in the offensive game. 

Thinking back to that National TV game on TNT, when they blew up Columbus.  Every hockey guy in that studio said the same thing - they have speed and offensive skill, they need to emphasize the defensive part of the game now.  

Last night we scored in the last minute of the first period to take a lead, then we scored a shorty for insurance in the 2nd.  A good team finishes the 3rd period by clamping down, strangling the opponents zone entries, and forcing errors.  Instead we laid back and gave up two cheesy goals to blow the 3rd period.  Then they coasted around in the OT, showboating with the puck only to lose in OT and bring home a hard earned L.   

Agreed.

Based on what I see, it appears that the attitude is that you can teach defence at any age, but offence needs to be done when the players are young.  And with a boatload of rookies and sophomores on the roster, the offence is really getting pushed.  IMHO, Granato needs to find a better balance between O and D.

[triumph_communes]

8 hours ago, Contempt said:

Is it just me or has this down turn coincided with Jokiharu's return? Not that he could even possibly be fully at fault but the defense has not been good of late.

Scoring is down. Goals against ain’t changed

[PromoTheRobot]

I finally had the chance to upload the video I took of the Jumbotron.

 

[Contempt]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

It's just you. 

Fair enough.

[LTS]

12 hours ago, msw2112 said:

What would the mood be on this board, if, on the Sabres last 2 on 1 in OT, the pass was made instead of the shot taken, and the puck went into the net?

Without any hesitation my mood would be the same as watching the Bills win.  Knowing the team should be so much better than who they are playing and still find a way to let it be close.  Find a way to not play to their potential.  Sure they find a way to win, but it never should get to that point. There is no reason on Earth the Hawks should have been close in that game.  None.  The Sabres did not play to their potential and even if they won, it would not be a good game.

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I finally had the chance to upload the video I took of the Jumbotron.

 

Nice.  I will be in Nashville a week from tomorrow at the Preds vs. Devils game. I hear they updated/changed their scoreboard.. it was already great last year.  That whole arena just rocks.

[dudacek]

9 hours ago, LTS said:

Without any hesitation my mood would be the same as watching the Bills win.  Knowing the team should be so much better than who they are playing and still find a way to let it be close.  Find a way to not play to their potential.  Sure they find a way to win, but it never should get to that point. There is no reason on Earth the Hawks should have been close in that game.  None.  The Sabres did not play to their potential and even if they won, it would not be a good game.

Nice.  I will be in Nashville a week from tomorrow at the Preds vs. Devils game. I hear they updated/changed their scoreboard.. it was already great last year.  That whole arena just rocks.

Kinda goes against the point of sport in my opinion: the games are entertaining because they aren't predictable.

The fun should be fuelled by the tension, the joy by the victory. 14 and 3 should make people happy

The fact that it doesn't for so many has had me reconsidering the amount of time I spend around here.

 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Kinda goes against the point of sport in my opinion: the games are entertaining because they aren't predictable.

The fun should be fuelled by the tension, the joy by the victory. 14 and 3 should make people happy

The fact that it doesn't for so many has had me reconsidering the amount of time I spend around here.

 

Yeah.  The Bills are fun & very good.  The Sabres are fun & at least relevant if not good often enough.  The Bandits are fun & good.  (Though not as good as last year - losing Fields & Frazier hurt; what a special team last year's was, darn shame Vinc ran out of gas at the end.)

After many years in the desert, it's a good time to be a Buffalo sports fan.

[LTS]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Kinda goes against the point of sport in my opinion: the games are entertaining because they aren't predictable.

The fun should be fuelled by the tension, the joy by the victory. 14 and 3 should make people happy

The fact that it doesn't for so many has had me reconsidering the amount of time I spend around here.

 

I expect games to be unpredictable. I expect players to make unpredictable plays. I don't get excited when players make uncharacteristically bad plays and coaches make similar calls. I prefer the unpredictable to be when a player exceeds their expectations.

The sport is fueled by tension and absolutely the joy of victory. However, if the point of the game were just to play it then winning and losing wouldn't matter. But it's not, and winning matters.  At some point the reasonable expectation of winning manifests itself in winning the last game of the season.  When it does, being 14-3 is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is winning the last game.

What people find fun and choose to view is each their own. I am an analytical person by nature and so my views will sweep that way. I don't take solace in a team that is superior barely getting by a team that was missing so many starters including their top 2 QBs. If others do, then I am glad for them. In this case it probably makes their lives easier.

The same is true of the Sabres. Through their play, obviously all in my opinion, they have established a higher level of expectation. I don't expect them to win the last game of the season. I don't even expect them to necessarily make the play-offs. I do however expect them to beat a team that is openly Going Hard for Bedard. Even then, sometimes its not about winning, but how the game was played.  If they played hard and lost to a team that outskilled them, that's understandable. But they've been playing soft and losing to teams that I don't think anyone around here would say has more skill.

 

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, LTS said:

I expect games to be unpredictable. I expect players to make unpredictable plays. I don't get excited when players make uncharacteristically bad plays and coaches make similar calls. I prefer the unpredictable to be when a player exceeds their expectations.

The sport is fueled by tension and absolutely the joy of victory. However, if the point of the game were just to play it then winning and losing wouldn't matter. But it's not, and winning matters.  At some point the reasonable expectation of winning manifests itself in winning the last game of the season.  When it does, being 14-3 is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is winning the last game.

What people find fun and choose to view is each their own. I am an analytical person by nature and so my views will sweep that way. I don't take solace in a team that is superior barely getting by a team that was missing so many starters including their top 2 QBs. If others do, then I am glad for them. In this case it probably makes their lives easier.

The same is true of the Sabres. Through their play, obviously all in my opinion, they have established a higher level of expectation. I don't expect them to win the last game of the season. I don't even expect them to necessarily make the play-offs. I do however expect them to beat a team that is openly Going Hard for Bedard. Even then, sometimes its not about winning, but how the game was played.  If they played hard and lost to a team that outskilled them, that's understandable. But they've been playing soft and losing to teams that I don't think anyone around here would say has more skill.

 

Not telling you or anyone how to be a fan, and apologies if it was taken that way.

We all make decisions on how we wish to interpret the data we receive. I find people’s tendency to move the goalposts away from things that can be interpreted as positive to be frustrating.