Sabres play at a 123 point pace this year with Samuelsson in the lineup

[DarthEbriate]

2 hours ago, ItsMillerTime said:

Feels like we’ve been hearing Schenn’s name for a while now. The resume fits the mold other than GMKA’s preference for youth, but I haven’t seen him play lately - has he lost a step at this point? 

Absolutely he's lost a bit. He's a 5/6D now even on the Canucks. But last season they were happy to have him guide Quinn Hughes and he's been there this season too, until Bear took the spot. He's solid defensively, will get beat by speed but not by power, and is on an expiring $850k contract. He's a Josh Gorges-type now, but with a better shot. He'd still be effective in the right situation.

The main issue as I see it is the Canucks would try to send him to a legitimate contender and thus the Sabres would have to overpay comparable to say... Boston. The other issue is the Canucks are still hanging around the back the west and aren't ready to blow it up, even though they should have started their rebuild 2 years ago instead of trading expiring bottom 6 mistake contacts for OEL.

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

One game to win the cup right now, have to take out one. Who do you take out?

Dahlin or Samuelsson. Who sits?

So... game 7 against Vegas. And your options for the top pairing is #7 Bryson stepping into the lineup for... let's not overthink this.

You play Dahlin for 28 minutes and get PP1 setting up shots for TNT, elite passing and vision, decent defense, and also physicality. (And I believe Muel is the glue of this d-corps, but the reason the Sabres are able to withstand poor goaltending and an adolescent team defense is that Dahlin drives the game from end-to-end.)

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

One game to win the cup right now, have to take out one. Who do you take out?

Dahlin or Samuelsson. Who sits depends on the other 5 D doesn’t it?  There is no scenario where if both are healthy both don’t play.  If your asking if we go into a game 7 with the team we have right now, but one of Dahlin or Samuelsson are injured which would I prefer to be injured I’d say Dahlin.  Defense wins championships. 

[Refuting]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

One game to win the cup right now, have to take out one. Who do you take out?

Dahlin or Samuelsson. Who sits depends on the other 5 D doesn’t it?  There is no scenario where if both are healthy both don’t play.  If your asking if we go into a game 7 with the team we have right now, but one of Dahlin or Samuelsson are injured which would I prefer to be injured I’d say Dahlin.  Defense wins championships. 

What happened here lol 

[GASabresIUFAN]

17 minutes ago, Refuting said:

What happened here lol 

No idea.  The answer is the second half of the quote.

[Thorny]

30 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No idea.  The answer is the second half of the quote.

Do you believe Dahlin is legitimately deserving of a Norris nomination? You just said you believe Samuelsson to be more valuable to us than Dahlin, presumably you are also casting a Norris vote for Samuelsson, as well? Should he win it?

If Samuelsson is legitimately more valuable to our team than Dahlin right now and the player we’d less want to remove from the lineup, the player we’d sooner choose to keep in if we can only keep one, I don’t see how that could possibly be congruent with the idea that person falls behind Dahlin in being deserving of the what Norris theoretically represents 

I understand it’s often a points awards for d men but that’s not what I’m getting at - presumably it’s supposed to be for all around value and not just offence, as usually awarded. But we see Samuelsson’s value so can bypass this 

“The James Norris Memorial Trophy, or simply the Norris Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position". It is named after James E. Norris, the longtime owner of the Detroit Red Wings.”

Ability. If what Samuelsson is able to do is translating to the most, in your view, indispensable player re: winning in our lineup I don’t see how he’s not both our Norris / Hart nominee.

Its how I feel about Dahlin

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

One game to win the cup right now, have to take out one. Who do you take out?

Dahlin or Samuelsson. Who sits?

ONE game to win?

Would expect w/ the fire power up front they can weather ONE game without Dahlin better.

A full series?  Want Dahlin's magic on offense & solid play on D.

[Thorny]

Dahlin is the player you want if you fall behind. He’s also the guy most likely to get you the lead. I’m prioritizing getting it before protecting it, when if I lose it Dahlin helps me get it back. Its one game and 30 minutes of Rasmus freaking Norris level Dahlin or solid Samuelsson. I don’t think this is particularly close and think it’s losing the plot a bit tbh ymmv

[Thorny]

Dahlin has 37 points. And 10 goals - Samuelsson has 2 points, and 1 goal.

An exponential gap on the offensive side.

D is tougher to measure with a number but Dahlin is plus 17 to Samuelsson’s plus 15. Do we think the defensive gap is AS BIG as the chasm on the offensive side? Dahlin is actually really good on D too. 

I dunno how even for one game, for any amount of time the answer couldn’t be Dahlin. This is like “the streak” all over again where way too much value is being placed on a non representative stretch. The Sabres aren’t really an 8 loss in a row team w/o Samuelsson and presidents trophy* with him*: it was a bad streak. 

*well, we might be, THAT, with him, and he’s a big part, but the early season streak wasn’t representative of the Sabres we’d see over the course of a full season sans Samuelsson. 

A big factor in the slump was Dahlin and power playing the same pair rather than being separated: a coaching decision. 

This is also as a big Samuelsson fan. I think I listed him 3rd or 4th for overall value on team earlier in another thread, him or Cozens 3rd and 4th 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Dahlin is the player you want if you fall behind. He’s also the guy most likely to get you the lead. I’m prioritizing getting it before protecting it, when if I lose it Dahlin helps me get it back. Its one game and 30 minutes of Rasmus freaking Norris level Dahlin or solid Samuelsson. I don’t think this is particularly close and think it’s losing the plot a bit tbh ymmv

Actually, Thompson is the guy most likely to get you the lead.  Which is why for A SINGLE game, you're probably more likely to suck it up & get by without Dahlin.

There's a reason that horrible 82 game season Ralph Krueger was good at getting bad teams farther than they should've been in short international series.  Keep the other team away from your net & goalie & take advantage of breaks & PPs.  It's a LT losing strategy, but can & often does work briefly.

For a full series, would much rather have Dahlin.  BUT with him only missing ONE game would rather have Dahlin out than Samuelsson.  ESPECIALLY when you consider how much deeper everyone will dig for a short time aatthe loss of one of them.  They all know how much Ras brings & will bring it up even higher to make up for it.  That can't be sustained, but for 60 minutes, it absolutely can be.

[K-9]

Some interesting food for thought regarding the Dahlin/Samuelsson discussion. For me it’s kind of simple: Dahlin is far, far, far better defensively than Mule is offensively, so he stays in the lineup. 

[Thorny]

Owen Power has 12 points. He’s closer to Samuelsson’s dearth of offensive production by a significant margin than he is Dahlin’s. To suggest he can replace or “fill in” for Dahlin / that we could sooner replace Dahlin makes no sense to me. He’s our MVP, he drives play in a way Samuelsson, a valuable player, doesn’t come close to doing. Apologies to Samuelsson 

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, Thompson is the guy most likely to get you the lead.  Which is why for A SINGLE game, you're probably more likely to suck it up & get by without Dahlin.

There's a reason that horrible 82 game season Ralph Krueger was good at getting bad teams farther than they should've been in short international series.  Keep the other team away from your net & goalie & take advantage of breaks & PPs.  It's a LT losing strategy, but can & often does work briefly.

For a full series, would much rather have Dahlin.  BUT with him only missing ONE game would rather have Dahlin out than Samuelsson.  ESPECIALLY when you consider how much deeper everyone will dig for a short time aatthe loss of one of them.  They all know how much Ras brings & will bring it up even higher to make up for it.  That can't be sustained, but for 60 minutes, it absolutely can be.

Most likely of the two in the comp I was saying 

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, Thompson is the guy most likely to get you the lead.  Which is why for A SINGLE game, you're probably more likely to suck it up & get by without Dahlin.

There's a reason that horrible 82 game season Ralph Krueger was good at getting bad teams farther than they should've been in short international series.  Keep the other team away from your net & goalie & take advantage of breaks & PPs.  It's a LT losing strategy, but can & often does work briefly.

For a full series, would much rather have Dahlin.  BUT with him only missing ONE game would rather have Dahlin out than Samuelsson.  ESPECIALLY when you consider how much deeper everyone will dig for a short time aatthe loss of one of them.  They all know how much Ras brings & will bring it up even higher to make up for it.  That can't be sustained, but for 60 minutes, it absolutely can be.

I don’t believe in a scenario where there’s a guy on my team I’d rather have in than the team mvp, for one game. How the heck could the guy be imo the mvp if there’s a guy I’d rather have in, in a must win scenario? Even if you have Dahlin second as MVP to Thompson, i’m not taking out the second most valuable player for someone less valuable for one game, ever. Dahlin is the most valuable, or he’s not. Dahlin showing us he’s the mvp or secondary mvp over a full season and for some reason over one game we impose different results? I just philosophically disagree. 

If a guy is our mvp, that’s the guy I want in. If we could, through the strength/balance of our team as a whole, overcome the loss of Dahlin for one game he wouldn’t be fulfilling such an impactful role for us, game in, game out 

he does that out of necessity. Not to be nice. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Thorny]

Rasmus Dahlin has points in 24 games this season. Of his 32 played. That’s 75%. He’s not an elite scorer who sometimes puts us over the top, and sometimes by a lot. 

He’s a foundational player who the Sabres much more often than not rely on his offence and play driving to actively put their side of the scoreboard *over the edge* in the name of winning, in games, on a daily basis. Yes, while other good offensive players are also producing. 
 

It’s been so long. You need to remember - you don’t just need more offence to win than the Sabres have shown for a decade to win: you need a LOT more. We can’t afford to lose what Dahlin provides, night in, night out, offensively, and certainly not in a one game scenario. 

And he’s still really good on D

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Refuting]

I get what GAfan is saying though 

If Colorado lost Makar and they were fully healthy, they'd want defensive defenseman. They'd be able to cope better 

I still think it's more important for a defenseman to be a better defender than offensive player 

Hence why there's position groups 

 

 

 

 

[Thorny]

Tage Thompson has 50 points, and points in 23 games this season 

Dahlin has 37 points, and points in 24 games. 
 

Dahlin has contributed in MORE games than our superstar 1C. And played D. Think about this. Scored in more games than a guy in the Art Ross race 
 

He’s not the droid we’re looking for if taking a guy out between him and Samuelsson 

3 minutes ago, Refuting said:

I get what GAfan is saying though 

If Colorado lost Makar and they were fully healthy, they'd want defensive defenseman. They'd be able to cope better 

I still think it's more important for a defenseman to be a better defender than offensive player 

Hence why there's position groups 

 

 

 

 

Makar, conn Smythe winner 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Refuting]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Tage Thompson has 50 points, and points in 23 games this season 

Dahlin has 37 points, and points in 24 games. 
 

Dahlin has contributed in MORE games than our superstar 1C. And played D. Think about this. Scored in more games than a guy in the Art Ross race 
 

He’s not the droid we’re looking for if taking a guy out between him and Samuelsson 

By this logic are you saying Dahlin is more important than Thompson 

[Thorny]

14 minutes ago, Refuting said:

By this logic are you saying Dahlin is more important than Thompson 

Dahlin is more important than Thompson 

- - - 

regerdless. This was Dahlin / Samuelsson. That Dahlin has scored in more games than even TT a guy in the Ross Race was just making my point on that plane. Dahlin is a / one of the / foundational ice bergs of the team’s #1 offence, it’s part of the foundation if removed the rest won’t just configure into the sum of the rest of it’s parts 

Owen Power doesn’t functionally replace anything *close* to the offense that Dahlin provides, not close to how close Dahlin comes to replacing what we’d miss with Samuelsson’s D. 
 

We get that that’s the equation in question here, right? That Power (a guy we are already counting on regardless) / the team can sooner replace Dahlin‘s offense than Dahlin (a guy already being counted on) and the team can replace Samuelsson’s D? Not only can Dahlin’s offense NOT be replaced by buckling down, he’d still leave a sizeable hole on the defensive side even if not Samuelsson big. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thorny

[Refuting]

Just now, Thorny said:

Dahlin is more important than Thompson 

I don't agree 

If you take Thompson out of the lineup Dahlin gets worse  

[GASabresIUFAN]

The problem with Dahlin vs Samuelsson is not an individual question.  It’s a team question.  Who is the no.1 2 way D if Dahlin is out? The answer is simple, 1st overall draftee Power.  Who is the no.1 defensive D if Samuelsson is out?  The answer is Jokiharju.  

What’s a better pairing Power Samuelsson or Dahlin Jokiharju?  To meet the answer is simple Power/Samuelsson. 

Dahlin is one of the top 5 or 6 D in the NHL now and a legit Norris contender, but Buffalo is one of the few teams that could possibly survive losing a Norris contender for a period of time. Buffalo’s bigger D issue, is the falloff between the top 3 and everyone else.  Losing any of the top 3 for significant period creates a hole our depth can’t reasonably fill.  If we had a player like Jensen as the 2nd stay at home D, this wouldn’t even be a debate.  

Edited December 31, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

38 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The problem with Dahlin vs Samuelsson is not an individual question.  It’s a team question.  Who is the no.1 2 way D if Dahlin is out? The answer is simple, 1st overall draftee Power.  Who is the no.1 defensive D if Samuelsson is out?  The answer is Jokiharju.  

What’s a better pairing Power Samuelsson or Dahlin Jokiharju?  To meet the answer is simple Power/Samuelsson. 

Dahlin is one of the top 5 or 6 D in the NHL now and a legit Norris contender, but Buffalo is one of the few teams that could possibly survive losing a Norris contender for a period of time. Buffalo’s bigger D issue, is the falloff between the top 3 and everyone else.  Losing any of the top 3 for significant period creates a hole our depth can’t reasonably fill.  If we had a player like Jensen as the 2nd stay at home D, this wouldn’t even be a debate.  

Though Jokiharju is typically paired w/ Power, there's a VERY good chance the #1 defensive D-man minus Samuelsson is Lyubushkin. 

And if he's healthy, expect Granato will make that adjustment were Samuelsson out.  And he & Dahlin, & Jokiharju could cover Muel's absense longer than Power & Bryson, & Muel could cover Dahlin's absense.

But for 1 or 2 games, expect Dahlin's absence would be covered better.  Beyond that, not a chance. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Though Jokiharju is typically paired w/ Power, there's a VERY good chance the #1 defensive D-man minus Samuelsson is Lyubushkin. 

And if he's healthy, expect Granato will make that adjustment were Samuelsson out.  And he & Dahlin, & Jokiharju could cover Muel's absense longer than Power & Bryson, & Muel could cover Dahlin's absense.

But for 1 or 2 games, expect Dahlin's absence would be covered better.  Beyond that, not a chance. 

A Dahlin Lyubushkin partnership would be awful and kind of proves my point.  Bush is makes terrible decisions with the puck. Frankly he is Risto 2.0.  

[French Collection]

I love Dahlin and Samuelsson but Dahlin is harder to replace.

Dahlin keeps the puck out of the Sabres end, he drives possession and play. He is also the PP QB. Power is not ready to shoulder that load, he needs to mature, develop and get to know the league before he can tilt the ice like Dahlin can.

Samuelsson keeps the puck out of the Sabres net, regains possession and moves the puck safely to the neutral zone. He does not contribute offensively. He is the antidote.

Dahlin is the wonder drug.

[LGR4GM]

You know the best part? We don't have to pick one or the other. Dahlin and Muel together for years. 

[tom webster]

21 hours ago, Taro T said:

He also allows 2nd & 3rd (or lesser) pairing defenders NOT have to play 1st pairing minutes & opponents.  THAT is huge.

That’s the biggest thing. While you can obviously point to him specifically, what having him in the lineup really points to is the fact that when he plays, they ice a competent NHL defense crew.