Doesn't sound like losing is accepted

[grinreaper]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

How soon is “too soon” to give up on Mitts?

He is the same age now that Thompson was when he broke out, and there are unique reasons that Thompson broke out so late. That’s an outlier.  Most forwards are at or near their peak at 24.

I think he’ll get the rest of this season, but I’m personally not optimistic.

I think that the timing of giving up on him depends on what management determines is the problem. I could see giving him the rest of the year but if they determine that the problem is of his own making and he isn't doing anything about it I'd be looking to get rid of him. If they find out that it's something that could be corrected physically or medically I might give him more time but find a way to do it without hurting the team. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Curt said:

I don’t see how anything that you wrote here is in response to my post that you quoted.

Did you quote the right post that you intended to?

Sure it does, you're the "optimist"

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, they fell behind 2-0 to TB and 1-0 to Detroit and came back and had the better of the play in both games (until the late-game chokes, of course).  And they didn't go to pieces after blowing the lead on the road in Detroit, either -- they dug deep, killed off a long 5-on-3 Detroit PP, controlled the play in OT and then won in the SO on an extremely sweet play by a prized rookie who is reputed to be a good leader/attitude guy.

I get the pessimism and the "I'll believe it when I see it" perspective -- this franchise has earned that and then some.  But I don't think they are quitters.

I'm not saying they are "quitters", not going that far. But I do think there is a little too much of the participation trophy mentality where they think oh well we tried. 

I didn't see any great differences in effort levels in those games you mentioned. If anything the opposition let up a little but overall it was just the same level and in those occasions we got a few bounces and made a few plays. We are "in" games more now and we can score more now so we aren't dead in the water if we fall behind early so there is improvement I can see. When we start to see more blocked shots, hits, diving for loose pucks, you know what I mean, the stuff where the guy coming off the ice is totally spent, that's when we will be there with a new culture. 

[Curt]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure it does, you're the "optimist"

I’m sorry, but what in this post was optimistic?  I didn’t say that anything was good or bad.  It was simply a comment on what I believe that the team is doing and  my opinion that they need to make a decision on whether some of these guys are going to stick around.

16 hours ago, Curt said:

Yeah, the change in player usage is definitely something to monitor.

I think that they are determined to find out/decide what they have in a few of their players (Mitts, Asplund, Olofsson, maybe Krebs etc).  These guys have 4-5 years of NA pro experience and Sabres are going to need to decide whether they are going to be part of the team going forward or if they will be moved out in favor of either younger players coming up, or role player/s coming in from outside.

 

[North Buffalo]

Look I hate the mismanagement of the first couple rebuilds... that being said and despite it being a long time since Sabres a had a competent team... this team is young... throw out Anderson, is the youngest in the league... i have to accept some patience is required... ps Ollie and Mitts played better last night... Ollie actually got physical on the boards once... ha! Agreed its been frustrating but Im not sure you give up on Mitts just yet unless you get something in return... Im skeptical of Krebs and done with Ollie but not much can be done til the trade deadline.

[nucci]

I would hope not

[Sidc3000]

2 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Look I hate the mismanagement of the first couple rebuilds... that being said and despite it being a long time since Sabres a had a competent team... this team is young... throw out Anderson, is the youngest in the league... i have to accept some patience is required... ps Ollie and Mitts played better last night... Ollie actually got physical on the boards once... ha! Agreed its been frustrating but Im not sure you give up on Mitts just yet unless you get something in return... Im skeptical of Krebs and done with Ollie but not much can be done til the trade deadline.

My patience has worn thin. I honestly think this was a way to conduct extreme cost cutting measures and disguise it by marketing it as youth development. That then buys Adams some time by holding fans hope at bay for a little while. 

[Pimlach]

On 12/1/2022 at 8:44 AM, PASabreFan said:

Selective bolding.

 

 

 

 

All bolding is selective. 

Go Bills! 

[Pimlach]

36 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

My patience has worn thin. I honestly think this was a way to conduct extreme cost cutting measures and disguise it by marketing it as youth development. That then buys Adams some time by holding fans hope at bay for a little while. 

They didn't disguise the cost cutting.  They came right out with it.  It is all in Terrys "efficient and economic" speech.  They fired their GM for not buying into it, that was just weeks after endorsing him.  

We are a cap floor team and have been for a while, there is no hiding that.  Costs are cut already. 

The pain is in seeing we have a good young core (Dahlin, Thompson, Cozens, Power, etc) and waiting for the FO to bring in some help. 

The marketing they do to hold the fans hope is necessary.  

Edited December 2, 2022 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

19 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Just frustrating they are essentially on the same points pace as last year even tho by almost every advanced metric they are significantly better.

 

Goalie is still the same problem.  

[North Buffalo]

53 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

My patience has worn thin. I honestly think this was a way to conduct extreme cost cutting measures and disguise it by marketing it as youth development. That then buys Adams some time by holding fans hope at bay for a little while. 

I would say maybe but its been tried the other way without success and flat out incompetence so at this point Im still show me stage and I see enough "potential" even possible goalies coming... ps can see defensively these guys learning how to play 200 foot game because they dont have a good goalie behind them... if and when the Sabres get a good goalie this team will be really tough to beat... til then at least the games are entertaining.

[Curt]

I see a lot of people complaining about the current course that the team is taking (building for future instead of an all out effort to win immediately).  Saying how they are sick of it, and that it’s more of the same from the past 12 years.

I honestly don’t see it that way.  What Adams has done the past two seasons is a distinct departure from what was done before.  I was sick of them doing a ***** job of trying to fill roster holes year after year and failing miserably due to incompetence.  That’s not what they are doing right now.

It seems that a lot of people have no interest in examining what the Sabres are trying to do, or how it’s different from years past.  They just don’t give a ***** and refuse to give a ***** until the team makes the playoffs.  I can’t really blame anyone, but I think it’s leading to a fair amount of misplaced frustration and unrealistic expectations for those people.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Curt

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, Curt said:

I see a lot of people complaining about the current course that the team is taking (building for future instead of an all out effort to win immediately).  Saying how they are sick of it, and that it’s more of the same from the past 12 years.

I honestly don’t see it that way.  What Adams has done the past two seasons is a distinct departure from what was done before.  I was sick of them doing a ***** job of trying to fill roster holes year after year and failing miserably due to incompetence.  That’s not what they are doing right now.

It seems that a lot of people have no interest in examining what the Sabres are trying to do, or how it’s different from years past.  They just don’t give a ***** and refuse to give a ***** until the team makes the playoffs.  I can’t really blame anyone, but I think it’s leading to a fair amount of misplaced frustration and unrealistic expectations for those people.

and you're arguing at me for calling you an optimist????

[Curt]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

and you're arguing at me for calling you an optimist????

Definitely not in this post.  Though I still don’t understand what it is that I’m so optimistic about?  I don’t think think I’ve expressed much optimism recently regarding the Sabres.

[Sidc3000]

19 hours ago, Curt said:

I see a lot of people complaining about the current course that the team is taking (building for future instead of an all out effort to win immediately).  Saying how they are sick of it, and that it’s more of the same from the past 12 years.

I honestly don’t see it that way.  What Adams has done the past two seasons is a distinct departure from what was done before.  I was sick of them doing a ***** job of trying to fill roster holes year after year and failing miserably due to incompetence.  That’s not what they are doing right now.

It seems that a lot of people have no interest in examining what the Sabres are trying to do, or how it’s different from years past.  They just don’t give a ***** and refuse to give a ***** until the team makes the playoffs.  I can’t really blame anyone, but I think it’s leading to a fair amount of misplaced frustration and unrealistic expectations for those people.

We all know know what Adams is doing is different. At least some of us know he’s doing it differently out of necessity not because it’s a proven method. I don’t know a lot about other teams rebuilds but how many other teams have brought up all of their top prospects at once to develop them in the NHL? If this has been done before, what was the team’s success? 
 

I’m not going to get excited about it until they turned the corner or should I say IF they turn the corner. 
 

i do think Adams has gotten lucky by capturing lightning in a bottom with Tage. Tage alone may be the sole reason the team changes its trajectory. If it wasn’t for him, the Sabres would most likely be at the very bottom of the standings. 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Sidc3000 said:

At least some of us know he’s doing it differently out of necessity

This is the part that is so maddeningly frustrating.  The plan to completely gut the team has resulted in a situation where a decade later in demand players still don’t want to choose Buffalo, necessitating a fan numbingly slow rebuild almost exclusively through the draft (exhibit A, our goalie problem).

1 hour ago, Sidc3000 said:

i do think Adams has gotten lucky by capturing lightning in a bottom with Tage. Tage alone may be the sole reason the team changes its trajectory. If it wasn’t for him, the Sabres would most likely be at the very bottom of the standings. 

I hadn’t put any thought into it, but holy crap is this statement telling.  Even with two first overall draft picks on the roster, if Tage didn’t unexpectedly blow up, we’d be Arizona or Chicago bad.  No Fing way KA saw that coming and had it as part of “the process”.  How many more years would we be looking at?  Thank Gawd Tage is making this palatable at all.

[Believer]

On 12/1/2022 at 6:10 PM, PerreaultForever said:

. A lot of players on this team still don't seem willing to dig down and do that extra needed to turn a game around. When I see that, it comes across to me as still being okay with losing, or at least accepting it, and that has to change. 

Coach has to give that plain spoken message to the player… and be willing to sit the player to get their attention…

The GM has to give a message to the team… and be willing to keep a canary in the cage… Play hard or prepare to leave for Rochester or else ware 

Think DG does it in his own thoughtful style… See no evidence yet KA does it… 

[Sidc3000]

6 minutes ago, Believer said:

Coach has to give that plain spoken message to the player… and be willing to sit the player to get their attention…

The GM has to give a message to the team… and be willing to keep a canary in the cage… Play hard or prepare to leave for Rochester or else ware 

Think DG does it in his own thoughtful style… See no evidence yet KA does it… 

I don’t see him doing that. The plan is for them to develop in the NHL. Who would he bring up to replace people? 

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

We all know know what Adams is doing is different. At least some of us know he’s doing it differently out of necessity not because it’s a proven method. I don’t know a lot about other teams rebuilds but how many other teams have brought up all of their top prospects at once to develop them in the NHL? If this has been done before, what was the team’s success? 
 

I’m not going to get excited about it until they turned the corner or should I say IF they turn the corner. 
 

i do think Adams has gotten lucky by capturing lightning in a bottom with Tage. Tage alone may be the sole reason the team changes its trajectory. If it wasn’t for him, the Sabres would most likely be at the very bottom of the standings. 

 

One Example:

2019-20 NJ Devils had 8 players who were in their first 3 NHL seasons, including both of their top 6 C’s and their starting goalie.

Similar to what Buffalo has going on right now.

Another:

The 2016-17 Maple Leafs had 7 such players.

Another:

The 2016-17 Hurricanes had 10 such players.

 

For comparison:

The Sabres look like they have 8 guys in their first 3 NHL seasons who will play half the season or more for the Sabres.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Curt

[Believer]

Who would he bring up to replace people? 

How about Murray?… KA should reward his results… Has played all 19 games…  8 goals 14pts +3… Big and strong… Has had a enough taste of the NHL… Bet he is hungry to get a call… Send Krebs down to work on skills and experience a winning culture… Amerks still undefeated at home, I believe

Edited December 3, 2022 by Believer

[Pimlach]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:36 AM, Curt said:

I see a lot of people complaining about the current course that the team is taking (building for future instead of an all out effort to win immediately).  Saying how they are sick of it, and that it’s more of the same from the past 12 years.

I honestly don’t see it that way.  What Adams has done the past two seasons is a distinct departure from what was done before.  I was sick of them doing a ***** job of trying to fill roster holes year after year and failing miserably due to incompetence.  That’s not what they are doing right now.

It seems that a lot of people have no interest in examining what the Sabres are trying to do, or how it’s different from years past.  They just don’t give a ***** and refuse to give a ***** until the team makes the playoffs.  I can’t really blame anyone, but I think it’s leading to a fair amount of misplaced frustration and unrealistic expectations for those people.

Yes, Adams is taking is a different approach.  A slower approach - and it is on top of Regier's failure to retool, Murray's failure to rebuild (and he added more cultural destruction), and Boterill's failure to do whatever it was he was trying to do.   So, Adams has 10 years of very bad stuff to erase.  

Look back to 2012, the short season (Ruff was fired), when we fell to last place in the division.   Then look at the teams down in the standing with us across the whole league over the next few years.  Since that year and on, we been sucking and tanking, and still sucking.  We have seen many other teams rebuild since 2012.   Some have rebuilt and dropped down and retooled again.  Some have challenged for a cup and are still challenging.  Several former bottom feeder teams have won the cup.  Just this year we see that New Jersey has past us and even Detroit is at least competing for a playoff spot.   We are sitting in the bottom 8 of 32 teams while the two expansion teams are in the top 6.  I know that you know all of this.  

It is hard to expect the majority of fans to understand or be sympathetic.  This is a historic failure never before seen in the NHL.  Not every fan is as dedicated as we are on Sabrespace.   We are mutant Sabres fans and even many here are fed up.  

The fan base frustration is not misplaced just because most of them don't know the nuances of what Adams is trying to do.    It all about results and the results are not there yet.   When the Bills were rebuilding McDermott did not accept losing, even during the fast teardown/rebuild.  He said these things over and over again - "this is a results driven league" and "we have to earn the right to win" and "we have to establish a winning culture" and "we want players to come here to be the best versions of themselves".   

Contrast that with the Sabres messaging:  expect to suffer, lose on purpose, hire unproven people with little experience, trade our best players and start over, don't block prospects that aren't even here, veteran players don't want to come here, etc ... 

Sabres fans are sick of the bad culture, the jokes, the fact that NHL players openly state they do not want to come here.  They are sick of losing and not competing.  

At least Adams is openly stating what the plan is and that they are working to change the culture and build from within.  That is a start.  That is why I am still behind him.  I am giving him 4 years to make this team a playoff team.   He punched the clock on June 16, 2020.  

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Pimlach

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Curt said:

Definitely not in this post.  Though I still don’t understand what it is that I’m so optimistic about?  I don’t think think I’ve expressed much optimism recently regarding the Sabres.

Well okay, I think this might be semantics. ignoring me and you specifically, would you not agree that there are 2 main groups of fans now. Those believing in the new plan and those who are more skeptical and want to see proof on the ice before they buy in again? I think that's fair, and I think you can reduce that to optimists and pessimists. I also think the older fans tend to be more pessimistic. Loyal, but sadly pessimistic, as they remember too many better times. 

Now back to you and me, maybe you are not as optimistic as you appear to be to me when I read it. I will definitely accept the pessimist label though. I'm 100% in the show me and prove it camp. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

I don’t see him doing that. The plan is for them to develop in the NHL. Who would he bring up to replace people? 

That's part of the problem isn't it? Lack of depth. There really isn't anyone. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well okay, I think this might be semantics. ignoring me and you specifically, would you not agree that there are 2 main groups of fans now. Those believing in the new plan and those who are more skeptical and want to see proof on the ice before they buy in again? I think that's fair, and I think you can reduce that to optimists and pessimists. I also think the older fans tend to be more pessimistic. Loyal, but sadly pessimistic, as they remember too many better times. 

Now back to you and me, maybe you are not as optimistic as you appear to be to me when I read it. I will definitely accept the pessimist label though. I'm 100% in the show me and prove it camp. 

Would say there is a 3rd group of fans.  Those that are resigned to the fact the newest plan is being effected and are hopeful it will be successful, but aren't fully bought in that it will be (for whatever reason - goaltending, coaching, lack of vets, etc.).  (EVENTUALLY it will be, but making the playoffs for the 1st time since '11 in '26 would not be considered by any reasonable person that it was truly successful.)  Not necessarily optimistic but looking towards signs that this 3rd reboot can finally be successful.  Meaning making the playoffs next year.  (Or, #### it, THIS year even.  Yeah, now THAT would be optimistic. 😉 )

Just because somebody doesn't reflexively assume the plan won't work doesn't necessarily mean they believe everything is sunshine. & roses.  It could simply mean it's too d*mn depressing to always be looking at only the shortcomings.

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Would say there is a 3rd group of fans.  Those that are resigned to the fact the newest plan is being effected and are hopeful it will be successful, but aren't fully bought in that it will be (for whatever reason - goaltending, coaching, lack of vets, etc.).  (EVENTUALLY it will be, but making the playoffs for the 1st time since '11 in '26 would not be considered by any reasonable person that it was truly successful.)  Not necessarily optimistic but looking towards signs that this 3rd reboot can finally be successful.  Meaning making the playoffs next year.  (Or, #### it, THIS year even.  Yeah, now THAT would be optimistic. 😉 )

Just because somebody doesn't reflexively assume the plan won't work doesn't necessarily mean they believe everything is sunshine. & roses.  It could simply mean it's too d*mn depressing to always be looking at only the shortcomings.

Okay, sort of a middle ground position. I can accept that view. Makes ti harder to know where people stand but it's a reasonable way of looking at it. If that's your view I think I'd probably still see you as an optimist though.