Mittelstadt, Olofsson and the 3rd and 4th Lines

[Carmel Corn]

Part of me wonders if it should be Mitts that should be with Girgs and Okie.  Both are players who will go to the hard places on the ice and battle, which is IMHO the type of player needed to compliment Mitt's game.  They may not score a lot of goals, but since Casey is not demonstrating any scoring line proficiency, maybe rework his game defensively with a couple of grinders and maybe some offense can develop.

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Trade him and move on. Let another team watch him "grind" while he makes the wrong play repeatedly in the offensive zone and is mediocre in the defensive zone. If I have to watch an offensive zone chance die again because Casey decides to force a pass or skate into trouble or just spin around on the wall with no idea what to do until he just halfheartedly dumps it back to the point, my head might explode. 

 

Would you be kind enough to notify me when your head is ready to explode? I want to witness that. 

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The recent play of Mitts hasn't been very productive. But on the positive side he is displaying effort and battling for the puck. His marquis play last night was getting back on defense to prevent a breakaway. That was a terrific effort. All you can ask of Mitts is to keep grinding. From my vantage point that's what he is doing. 

It never fails. Mitts does his once every six games or so something noticeable and all the “look at that effort” or “he’s really working hard to turn it around” posts start coming out of the woodwork. Sorry John, but I can’t give Mitts too much credit for simply doing his job on a play when he doesn’t do that the vast majority of the time.

Great hustle or not, he’s shown himself to be a poor decision making giveaway machine far more often than not when he’s on the ice. Being a great guy and popular teammate who works hard only gets you so far for so long. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

It never fails. Mitts does his once every six games or so something noticeable and all the “look at that effort” or “he’s really working hard to turn it around” posts start coming out of the woodwork. Sorry John, but I can’t give Mitts too much credit for simply doing his job on a play when he doesn’t do that the vast majority of the time.

Great hustle or not, he’s shown himself to be a poor decision making giveaway machine far more often than not when he’s on the ice. Being a great guy and popular teammate who works hard only gets you so far for so long. 

Mitts is on the team right now. He has little value on the market. It's in his and the organization's interest for him to elevate his game. Will he do so? Is he capable of doing so? Right now, it doesn't seem likely. I'm pretty close to concluding that for his benefit he needs to be moved with the hope that a change of scenery will give him a fresh start and possibly invigorate his career. It's more likely than not that his future is not here. But all the coach can do is work with what he's got and do his best to get the most out of him.

Sometimes a premature conclusion can be made out of frustration and exasperation with a player. It wasn't that long that the commentary about Skinner was dramatically different than it is now. Sometimes you have to ride the horse that is in your stable and see how far you can go with it before you send it to the glue factory. I'm still hanging in there. It might be by a thread but I'm grasping what I have to grasp with.

[LabattBlue]

Giving Mittlestadt and Oloffson a game or two in the press box(not necessarily on the same night) is a must.  Not sure what DG is waiting for.  If nothing else, Asplund would make that line better in the defensive zone. 
 

…and that line should NEVER be on the ice with the 3rd pair defensemen. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by LabattBlue

[LGR4GM]

36 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Would you be kind enough to notify me when your head is ready to explode? I want to witness that. 

I'll send out invites for the event. Free good but gotta buy your own drinks. 

[LGR4GM]

32 minutes ago, K-9 said:

It never fails. Mitts does his once every six games or so something noticeable and all the “look at that effort” or “he’s really working hard to turn it around” posts start coming out of the woodwork. Sorry John, but I can’t give Mitts too much credit for simply doing his job on a play when he doesn’t do that the vast majority of the time.

Great hustle or not, he’s shown himself to be a poor decision making giveaway machine far more often than not when he’s on the ice. Being a great guy and popular teammate who works hard only gets you so far for so long. 

I dont want to defend him and I am skeptical of how this is recorded but he has 14giveaways and 14 takeaways. I agree with you, seems like it should be way more. I wonder if that is a product of losing puck battles where they don't mark a gv because he never really had control. 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mitteca01.html

[K-9]

52 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Mitts is on the team right now. He has little value on the market. It's in his and the organization's interest for him to elevate his game. Will he do so? Is he capable of doing so? Right now, it doesn't seem likely. I'm pretty close to concluding that for his benefit he needs to be moved with the hope that a change of scenery will give him a fresh start and possibly invigorate his career. It's more likely than not that his future is not here. But all the coach can do is work with what he's got and do his best to get the most out of him.

Sometimes a premature conclusion can be made out of frustration and exasperation with a player. It wasn't that long that the commentary about Skinner was dramatically different than it is now. Sometimes you have to ride the horse that is in your stable and see how far you can go with it before you send it to the glue factory. I'm still hanging in there. It might be by a thread but I'm grasping what I have to grasp with.

Premature conclusion regarding Mitts? Since DG took the reins, he has given Mitts every opportunity in every role available to a forward with various line mates up and down the lineup, all to no avail. Except for that once in a while game or play. If it’s a premature conclusion, it will be one of the best informed premature conclusions in history. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

Part of me wonders if it should be Mitts that should be with Girgs and Okie.  Both are players who will go to the hard places on the ice and battle, which is IMHO the type of player needed to compliment Mitt's game.  They may not score a lot of goals, but since Casey is not demonstrating any scoring line proficiency, maybe rework his game defensively with a couple of grinders and maybe some offense can develop.

I thought they tried that with Mitts and nothing much happened.  (?)

Krebs scored a goal last night with KO and ZG.  It was an extra effort play that required skills.  I say keep him there.   Krebs is a kid with potential - He has good hands and skating skills, he needs to get stronger, he needs to work on his shot, and he can learn the 200-foot game from these two veterans, it will serve him well.  

 

[K-9]

Good news is, as other lines keep playing well, there are simply less opportunities for Mitts and VO to disrupt chemistries. They seem destined to play themselves out of the lineup together. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Premature conclusion regarding Mitts? Since DG took the reins, he has given Mitts every opportunity in every role available to a forward with various line mates up and down the lineup, all to no avail. Except for that once in a while game or play. If it’s a premature conclusion, it will be one of the best informed premature conclusions in history. 

You are missing my point. What is the option? He has little value on the trade market. Can he be salvageable? So far, the organization has not made a conclusive decision to move on from him. Maybe it is close to reaching the point of no return for him but the organization, at this time, has decided to make do with what they got. 

[K-9]

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are missing my point. What is the option? He has little value on the trade market. Can he be salvageable? So far, the organization has not made a conclusive decision to move on from him. Maybe it is close to reaching the point of no return for him but the organization, at this time, has decided to make do with what they got. 

I’m sorry, I thought your point was that if the Sabres removed him from the lineup that they’d be doing so prematurely; that the jury is still out on Mitts’s potential as an NHL player. 

Per the bold, I’d say that’s rather obvious and that underscores my point that when they do finally move on from him there won’t be anything premature about it. Again, it will be very well considered decision. The opposite of premature. 

[LTS]

I would bet that Adams would willingly move on from those players if there was a trade that made sense. We know they have little value, but so does everyone else.

Could the Sabres get a player back in a trade that would fill those spots?  Might be a stretch. I would bet they could for Olofsson, not so sure for Mitts.  So if they had to fill the roster from the Amerks who's coming up?  Biro, Bjork, Murray?

They won't bring up Rosen, Kulich.. I doubt Rousek even.

So perhaps its play them, knowing they aren't what you will keep and hope they improve to get a trade opened up.. or else its the off-season.. or hope someone waives someone else that would work better.

[SwampD]

8 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Part of me wonders if it should be Mitts that should be with Girgs and Okie.  Both are players who will go to the hard places on the ice and battle, which is IMHO the type of player needed to compliment Mitt's game.  They may not score a lot of goals, but since Casey is not demonstrating any scoring line proficiency, maybe rework his game defensively with a couple of grinders and maybe some offense can develop.

I've wanted to see Mitts with Kyle for a while now.

[LGR4GM]

Cody Ekin called, he wants his chart back. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cody Ekin called, he wants his chart back. 

Wholly crap, Batman !!

One of these things is not quite like the others, but yikes !!

[Thorny]

I’m glad VO’s are (slightly) better, as I’d deal Casey first of the two. He may even have more value because of past pedigree (“we can fix him”) and that he plays C. I’ve seen VO’s metrics look much better in the past and can’t recall seeing such w/Casey so naturally including my own bias already I lean towards blaming Casey here, more, though both share. 

As always I would deal VO for a hockey trade and not a draft pick, same w/ Casey but, again, I think I’d prioritize wheeling and dealing on the Mittestadt front, first. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Cody Ekin called, he wants his chart back. 

I’m curious what their charts look like from last season.  I think they are substantially better and wonder where the problem is.

I also wonder how many of their goals against happened with at least one of Bush, Pilut, Fitz, Clague and Bryson on the ice.  

All 4 goals against CBJ came with Pilut and/or Bryson on the ice.  They brought down everyone.   

No question Casey & VO aren’t adding anything 5 on 5, but there has to be more to the story.

Edited December 10, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m curious what their charts look like from last season.  I think they are substantially better and wonder where the problem is.

I also wonder how many of their goals against happened with at least one of Bush, Pilut, Fitz, Clague and Bryson on the ice.  

All 4 goals against CBJ came with Pilut and/or Bryson on the ice.  They brought down everyone.   

No question Casey & VO aren’t adding anything 5 on 5, but there has to be more to the story.

One would think.

[nfreeman]

Well, Mitts has now been on TT's line for 2 games in place of Skinner, and in those 2 games, that line has zero ES goals (although they had 3 PP goals last night vs LA).

OTOH, with Mitts gone, the Asplund-Jost-VO line looked much more effective last night and had 5 points, all at ES.

Mitts continues to be a major problem and offense-suffocating factor.

I am fine with giving Mitts the rest of this season to evaluate him, but I continue to question his usage and linemates. 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Once Skinny comes back, where would you want Mitts? The rest of the lines seems to be Gelling. I think it is time to make a team improvement and trade him.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Well, Mitts has now been on TT's line for 2 games in place of Skinner, and in those 2 games, that line has zero ES goals (although they had 3 PP goals last night vs LA).

OTOH, with Mitts gone, the Asplund-Jost-VO line looked much more effective last night and had 5 points, all at ES.

Mitts continues to be a major problem and offense-suffocating factor.

I am fine with giving Mitts the rest of this season to evaluate him, but I continue to question his usage and linemates. 

Actually with Mitts on the top line their advanced metrics have been excellent, they just haven't been converting the last two games.  Casey setup Tuch perfectly in the 1st but Copley made an amazing save.  DG admitted the after the Pitt game that some of VO and Mitt's issues stem from his use of our bottom tier D while they were on the ice.  

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sabres-casey-mittelstadt-earns-chance-to-showcase-talents-on-top-line/

Also VO's line made a habit for driving to the net last night and it worked.  Casey worked there as well for Tuch and Tnt.  Maybe both talented forwards finally got the message?

[nfreeman]

Just now, NJhopelessSabresfan66 said:

Once Skinny comes back, where would you want Mitts? The rest of the lines seems to be Gelling. I think it is time to make a team improvement and trade him.

I don't think anyone would give the Sabres anything for Mitts.  Maybe a 3rd-round pick, but certainly not a goalie or defenseman who is capable of playing this year.

As for where to slot him in the lineup -- good question.  I'd probably put him between Zemgus and KO, which would leave the other line with something like VO-Krebs-Jost. 

I recognize that Jost is a C, but he can probably play wing, and in any case that line looks better to me on paper than any line with VO and Mitts together, including VO-Mitts-Gretzky.

[nfreeman]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually with Mitts on the top line their advanced metrics have been excellent, they just haven't been converting the last two games.  Casey setup Tuch perfectly in the 1st but Copley made an amazing save.  DG admitted the after the Pitt game that some of VO and Mitt's issues stem from his use of our bottom tier D while they were on the ice.  

https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sabres-casey-mittelstadt-earns-chance-to-showcase-talents-on-top-line/

Also VO's line made a habit for driving to the net last night and it worked.  Casey worked there as well for Tuch and Tnt.  Maybe both talented forwards finally got the message?

Yes, Mitts made a nice pass to Tuch in a blowout win, and yes, that line produced SOME improved analytics relative to Mitts' line for the past month when he was on with VO, which were shockingly terrible.  However, vs Pitt, TT's line -- which includes the 2nd-leading goal-scorer and 3rd leading point-scorer in the NHL -- produced ONE high-danger scoring chance (and allowed 2 against).  That's because Mitts makes 5 poor decisions with the puck when he gets it in the O-zone for every good one he makes.

TT and Tuch's line will have good forechecking/possession analytics regardless of who the 3rd member is.  But putting Mitts on with them is like throwing a fire blanket over them.

DG is doing the opponents a massive favor.  He's neutering one of the most dangerous lines in the NHL.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Yes, Mitts made a nice pass to Tuch in a blowout win

You realize that that play was in the 1st period last night with the score 0-0?  The blowout happened in the 3rd period.