Trade targets

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, French Collection said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/32-thoughts-jim-rutherford-unloads-with-blunt-truth-about-canucks/

 

I provide the same link to Friedman’s 32 thoughts in the Portillo thread, because he repeats Marek’s words about going UFA.

He mentions that the Sabres may move Hinostroza.

The Hinostroza move seems inevitable.  The slump in play coincides w/ stealthily (or not) carrying a healthy 24th player on the roster.

[Norcal]

So Horvat to chowdaville or just internet rumor? 

That would be a real cup of chowder right there! 

I'm hoping it's a rumor because I hate them.

[TageMVP]

13 minutes ago, Norcal said:

So Horvat to chowdaville or just internet rumor? 

That would be a real cup of chowder right there! 

I'm hoping it's a rumor because I hate them.

Sabres should get in on Horvat 

[LabattBlue]

21 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

Sabres should get in on Horvat 

What are you offering up, and don’t start with Mitts, VO, Rosen, or other mediocre talent. 

[dudacek]

It would be a mistake for the Sabres to pay Bo Horvat prices for their 3C.

I would hope the Sabres are not be in on any pricey centres with term at all.

They are set at the top 2 positions for a long time with Thompson and Cozens.

[LGR4GM]

48 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

Sabres should get in on Horvat 

Cozens, 2023 first, Kulich and a 2024 2nd

I mean maybe Cozens with his recent production puts him out of reach so you're talking Quinn or JJP. Maybe you can sell them on Mitts but idk if I see that. 

So JJP, Kulich, 2023 1st, 2024 2nd.  And Horvat is a ufa and shooting 5% above his average. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by LGR4GM

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cozens, 2023 first, Kulich and a 2024 2nd

I mean maybe Cozens with his recent production puts him out of reach so you're talking Quinn or JJP. Maybe you can sell them on Mitts but idk if I see that. 

They can’t afford Horvat, how they going to afford Cozens?

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

They can’t afford Horvat, how they going to afford Cozens?

Cozens is an rfa.

And I don't think Horvat gets you Cozens the more I consider this. It's about 4 bridges to far.

[Pimlach]

57 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

What are you offering up, and don’t start with Mitts, VO, Rosen, or other mediocre talent. 

Mitts, VO, Rosen, Clagge,  and Bryson? Everyone wants to trade garbage for gold.  

Edited January 19, 2023 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cozens is an rfa.

And I don't think Horvat gets you Cozens the more I consider this. It's about 4 bridges to far.

Yep. Horvat doesn’t get Dylan Cozens on his own. Not even close.

His career highs in his first 8 seasons are 31 goals and 61 points.

His career numbers aren’t much different than Sam Reinhart’s and his price shouldn’t be much more: a mid-first and a good prospect.

Canucks are smart not to be giving him a jt Miller deal.

Edited January 19, 2023 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, TageMVP said:

Sabres should get in on Horvat 

Nah, the Sabres should not throw away assets on another center.  They have TNT and Cozens, plus Kebs and Jost,  and they drafted 3 center prospects.

Use less prospect capital to acquire a top 4 defenseman or a goalie, and get another power forward (winger).  They need a few two way forwards - we stink in our end of the rink and we are mediocre at PK.   Lets fix the problems.  

Horvat plays the one position we have covered.  

Edited January 19, 2023 by Pimlach

[Taro T]

29 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Nah, the Sabres should not throw away assets on another center.  They have TNT and Cozens, plus Kebs and Jost,  and they drafted 3 center prospects.

Use less prospect capital to acquire a top 4 defenseman or a goalie, and get another power forward (winger).  They need a few two way forwards - we stink in our end of the rink and we are mediocre at PK.   Lets fix the problems.  

Horvat plays the one position we have covered.  

Agreed in general.

The 2 things the Sabres absolutely need are a 4D & a true starting G.  They don't have the 4D.  They probably don't have the G, but they might.  One additional D beyond that would be good to have, but is more a luxury than a necessity.

Up front, yeah, there are items that might be good to add, like another power F, or a PK specialist (would be sweet if those could be the same body), a C that could actually win a FO; but none of those are desperately needed.

They have a good top line.  They have 2 3rd lines, 1 of which should be a good to excellent 2nd line 1-2 years from now.  They have a 4th line that can generate chances, and probably finishes them at a better rate than most 4th lines.

It would be good to close out games w/ leads better, but expect running Cozens, Jost, & Tuch and then the 4th line W's w/either their C or Thompson (or even Mittelstadt (ducks from the debris thrown at that suggestion) along w/ Dahlin & Samuelsson (w/ Power & either Jokiharju or Lyubushkin briefly) would get that done.  

Respectfully believe the PK is actually playing pretty well lately.  Yeah, the overall #'s are still bad, but the PK was beyond awful and it takes a lot of 3 of 3 kill games to work that back to respectable. 

And would be surprised if that 4D &/or 1G ate traded for in season.  See the D coming this offseason.  No data on if they sit on what they have in net.  They have to start giving Comrie some action & keeping UPL busy to figure out what they actually have.  Don't want this season wasted as "developmental" but believe Granato can (& should) start tweaking his deployments to keep this team in the mix.  And both Adams & Granato are on record that they aren't going to spend assets to win today at the expense of tomorrow, so really believe what they have is what they have this year.  And it MIGHT be good enough.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

It would be a mistake for the Sabres to pay Bo Horvat prices for their 3C.

I would hope the Sabres are not be in on any pricey centres with term at all.

They are set at the top 2 positions for a long time with Thompson and Cozens.

Hmm I don’t know, I’m not so sure. Are we really at, “there’s no room for Bo Horvat on the Buffalo Sabres” territory? Actually asking. 
 

In one way I agree, it’s a lot of money to commit to a player of his age. But I think committing such a large contract to someone turning 28 would be my hesitancy long before a positional concern. We still clearly need good players, we talk all the time about how the D can play on their offhand, certainly there’s room for a Horvat SOMEWHERE in the top 6, or even 9, or are we already done at F? Obviously the cost, asset wise, might just be way too high. But even if we are paying a player a lot to be on a “third” line, why does it matter if they are a great player and we have the cap space? 

Basically, if we still open to F upgrades, I don’t see why just because a guy plays C and is really good we should lay off. Not with Horvat but just in general. Tampa would still have more good F than us, when they won the Cup.

Do you think Horvat will be worth what he gets? Are you open to paying what he’d cost, for a different guy, if they were younger? Or do you think we should be out of the market for F additions of that cost, full stop? 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Yep. Horvat doesn’t get Dylan Cozens on his own. Not even close.

His career highs in his first 8 seasons are 31 goals and 61 points.

His career numbers aren’t much different than Sam Reinhart’s and his price shouldn’t be much more: a mid-first and a good prospect.

Canucks are smart not to be giving him a jt Miller deal.

So I’m reading it more as just you think Horvat is going to cost too much to get by way of trade, not that you wouldn’t be interested in paying him what you’d actually deem him worth in salary / a F like him. If I’m wrong and you think we are near a critical mass for forwards or the amount of Cs we want on the roster you can correct me again 

- - - 

looking at the convo in general though and all the “not a centre” posts....it’s kinda reading weird to me. We still need good forwards. Why is it we talk of D playing their off hand, when it’s much less common, but all of a sudden centres, who play wing all the time, are pidgeonholed in the middle? The presence of Thompson and Cozens doesn’t mean we put up the “closed” sign on another great F if they can be had for a reasonable cost and fair pay. We aren’t at critical mass upfront, it’s not even close.

Horvat could easily not be that guy, the asset cost and valuation could be complete mismatches. But if we could somehow, hypothetically, objectively calculate his accurate contract value, no way we should be turning down a reasonably had addition because they play the centre ice position. 

The most valuable position in hockey.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Agreed in general.

The 2 things the Sabres absolutely need are a 4D & a true starting G.  They don't have the 4D.  They probably don't have the G, but they might.  One additional D beyond that would be good to have, but is more a luxury than a necessity.

Up front, yeah, there are items that might be good to add, like another power F, or a PK specialist (would be sweet if those could be the same body), a C that could actually win a FO; but none of those are desperately needed.

They have a good top line.  They have 2 3rd lines, 1 of which should be a good to excellent 2nd line 1-2 years from now.  They have a 4th line that can generate chances, and probably finishes them at a better rate than most 4th lines.

It would be good to close out games w/ leads better, but expect running Cozens, Jost, & Tuch and then the 4th line W's w/either their C or Thompson (or even Mittelstadt (ducks from the debris thrown at that suggestion) along w/ Dahlin & Samuelsson (w/ Power & either Jokiharju or Lyubushkin briefly) would get that done.  

Respectfully believe the PK is actually playing pretty well lately.  Yeah, the overall #'s are still bad, but the PK was beyond awful and it takes a lot of 3 of 3 kill games to work that back to respectable. 

And would be surprised if that 4D &/or 1G ate traded for in season.  See the D coming this offseason.  No data on if they sit on what they have in net.  They have to start giving Comrie some action & keeping UPL busy to figure out what they actually have.  Don't want this season wasted as "developmental" but believe Granato can (& should) start tweaking his deployments to keep this team in the mix.  And both Adams & Granato are on record that they aren't going to spend assets to win today at the expense of tomorrow, so really believe what they have is what they have this year.  And it MIGHT be good enough.

We have enough good forwards if the goal is to make the playoffs in the next few years. And we cap it at that. I think here and there people occasionally fail to appreciate how much gap there is between our group upfront as a whole and that of the cup contenders. It’s not just about raw goals, forwards play both ways - our goal differential by way of our forward group isn’t the best in the league, it’s mid pack. 

ie, say we hypothetically added a kucherov, no amount of the output Kucherov represents would be superfluous value, re: assembling the F talent necessary to win a championship. 

now, of course we might sooner allocate assets to a lock down defender, but we are no where close to being in a position to decline upgrades at F under the prism of them being reasonably had, simply because a guy plays C instead of W.

I think we should, and I believe Adams is, still actively interested in adding to team, both F and D, as long as the methods are congruent with the timeline and his asset evaluations. We are still building up front, too.

- - - 

people get that adding a 1 C, or a 2C, to our current group, would be a more valuable addition than a 4D, right? Bo Horvat (just as an example. again, if not a drastic overpay to get/sign him, which it very well could be) is going to add a lot more value to this team on ice than another, say, Jokiharju. 

The idea of adding a good C (not saying Horvat necessarily) isn’t adding a 4th starting G to a unit of 3. It’s replacing Olofsson with a dominant play driving 2C and lining him up at LW alongside Kulich next year cause we can 

then trading, say, Rosen to recoup the lost assets. It’s lining up a good F there now instead during Tage’s prime rather than waiting for the prospect to develop. The good thing about having a deep system is some prospects can and should be currency. We shouldn’t be adding a contract handcuff by any means, but an accurately paid forward isn’t something we should be turning down on the basis of “it’s not a need”.

Any really good player who wants to be here that we don’t have to overpay for IS a need. That’s it. 
 

As long as we are sitting in 22nd place, and not tweaking a playoff roster, I honestly think I’m still in “BPA” mode where any outside additions, that catch Adams’ eye, are concerned. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

We have enough good forwards if the goal is to make the playoffs in the next few years. And we cap it at that. I think here and there people occasionally fail to appreciate how much gap there is between our group upfront as a whole and that of the cup contenders. It’s not just about raw goals, forwards play both ways - our goal differential by way of our forward group isn’t the best in the league, it’s mid pack. 

ie, say we hypothetically added a kucherov, no amount of the output Kucherov represents would be superfluous value, re: assembling the F talent necessary to win a championship. 

now, of course we might sooner allocate assets to a lock down defender, but we are no where close to being in a position to decline upgrades at F under the prism of them being reasonably had, simply because a guy plays C instead of W.

I think we should, and I believe Adams is, still actively interested in adding to team, both F and D, as long as the methods are congruent with the timeline and his asset evaluations. We are still building up front, too.

- - - 

people get that adding a 1 C, or a 2C, to our current group, would be a more valuable addition than a 4D, right? Bo Horvat (just as an example. again, if not a drastic overpay to get/sign him, which it very well could be) is going to add a lot more value to this team on ice than another, say, Jokiharju. 

The idea of adding a good C (not saying Horvat necessarily) isn’t adding a 4th starting G to a unit of 3. It’s replacing Olofsson with a dominant play driving 2C and lining him up at LW alongside Kulich next year cause we can 

then trading, say, Rosen to recoup the lost assets. It’s lining up a good F there now instead during Tage’s prime rather than waiting for the prospect to develop. The good thing about having a deep system is some prospects can and should be currency. We shouldn’t be adding a contract handcuff by any means, but an accurately paid forward isn’t something we should be turning down on the basis of “it’s not a need”.

Any really good player who wants to be here that we don’t have to overpay for IS a need. That’s it. 
 

As long as we are sitting in 22nd place, and not tweaking a playoff roster, I honestly think I’m still in “BPA” mode where any outside additions, that catch Adams’ eye, are concerned. 

No doubt having a Kucherov would make the team better, he's a great player.

But really expect this management team expects that with what they have in house they already have for next season a true 1st line, a true 2nd line, and the top 1/2 of a 6 man D corp.  Expect they believe they have 1/2 of the bottom 6 F's in place & 1-2 of the bottom 3 D they need as well.

And because of the improvement they'll see from the kids being 8 months older when the next season starts, they're probably right.

Expect that they'll make moves this offseason, but they aren't going to be to fill the top 1/2 of the lineup.  (But if they can supplant somebody, it'll just make the team that much better.)

And, yeah, would like to see upgrades now.  But with everything that's been said and done since Adams switched the team's direction am not expecting any unless they make a TON of sense in the LT.  And just don't see those sort of moves being available at a price that makes sense to management right now.  And if they aren't going to happen will not follow in the GA self-torture mode of shouting that something must be done now because Adams isn't changing his plan just because we want it to move quicker.  (Maybe it's cathartic for him, would just be frustrating IMHO for this kid.  So, try to see what pieces are here LT and what might get upgraded soon without expecting a blockbuster move YET.)

And honestly believe the goal next year is to compete for the Stanley Cup.

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And honestly believe the goal next year is to compete for the Stanley Cup.

As long as it’s to make the playoffs, I’m good 

[dudacek]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

Hmm I don’t know, I’m not so sure. Are we really at, “there’s no room for Bo Horvat on the Buffalo Sabres” territory? Actually asking. 
 

In one way I agree, it’s a lot of money to commit to a player of his age. But I think committing such a large contract to someone turning 28 would be my hesitancy long before a positional concern. We still clearly need good players, we talk all the time about how the D can play on their offhand, certainly there’s room for a Horvat SOMEWHERE in the top 6, or even 9, or are we already done at F? Obviously the cost, asset wise, might just be way too high. But even if we are paying a player a lot to be on a “third” line, why does it matter if they are a great player and we have the cap space? 

Basically, if we still open to F upgrades, I don’t see why just because a guy plays C and is really good we should lay off. Not with Horvat but just in general. Tampa would still have more good F than us, when they won the Cup.

Do you think Horvat will be worth what he gets? Are you open to paying what he’d cost, for a different guy, if they were younger? Or do you think we should be out of the market for F additions of that cost, full stop? 

 

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

So I’m reading it more as just you think Horvat is going to cost too much to get by way of trade, not that you wouldn’t be interested in paying him what you’d actually deem him worth in salary / a F like him. If I’m wrong and you think we are near a critical mass for forwards or the amount of Cs we want on the roster you can correct me again 

- - - 

looking at the convo in general though and all the “not a centre” posts....it’s kinda reading weird to me. We still need good forwards. Why is it we talk of D playing their off hand, when it’s much less common, but all of a sudden centres, who play wing all the time, are pidgeonholed in the middle? The presence of Thompson and Cozens doesn’t mean we put up the “closed” sign on another great F if they can be had for a reasonable cost and fair pay. We aren’t at critical mass upfront, it’s not even close.

Horvat could easily not be that guy, the asset cost and valuation could be complete mismatches. But if we could somehow, hypothetically, objectively calculate his accurate contract value, no way we should be turning down a reasonably had addition because they play the centre ice position. 

The most valuable position in hockey.

 

I like Bo Horvat.

I would much rather have him than Casey Mittelstadt playing Casey Mittelstadt's role.

But people need to understand that's the role he is best suited for: part of a scoring line and not its driver, good down low on the PP, and not our first choice to be on the ice much against the other team's best.

It's the last part that people tend to not realize with Horvat; because he's got character and because he's good on faceoffs people seem to think of him as a strong two-way guy, but that's not really the case.

My issues with Horvat as a Sabre aren't really about position though, even though he's worth more to a team without a Cozens or a Thompson and that will drive up the price point. (Not to mention something something feels off about making your 3rd-best centre your highest-paid.)

I guess they're a bit about value, in that he's a buy-high asset, who will never be worth more than he is at the moment.

But mostly it basically come down to opportunity cost. He's having a career year and he's going to cost a premium: at least the equivalent of 2 1st-rounders, and at least $8 million over 6 years, probably more on both counts. I have no problem making that kind of investment, but I want to spend it targeting qualities I think we need more: leadership, defence, abrasiveness. I'd prefer to target a better-value player who better complements our existing core.

Who's this year's version of Hampus Lindholm?

We have a lot of assets. I'm OK with holding onto them until we find the right players, instead of spending them on whoever is available.

Edited January 19, 2023 by dudacek

[dudacek]

Another thing that won’t be too popular here is that the Sabres will once again betting most of their chips on internal improvement.

They gave Tuch Thompson Mittelstadt Olofsson Asplund Dahlin Bryson and Jokiharju plenty of time and opportunity to see what they could become.

They are going to do the same with Cozens, Quinn, Krebs, Peterka, Power, Samuelsson and Luukkonen. 

Now maybe they move on from some of that first wave - like many of you have - and that opens up some room. Maybe Girgs Jost and Okie aren’t re-signed and the door opens further.

But most of this team is coming back next year.

Me, I’d look to add a Mike Foligno, Mike Peca and/or Mike Grier type to upgrade 2 of the spots currently held by Victor, Casey, Kyle, Tyson and Zemgus. And I’d add a Toni Lydman/Jay McKee style player to support Power and supplement Mule.

I think Comrie/UPL with Levi looking over their shoulders is inevitable, although I’d personally try to upgrade Comrie with a guy who’s not carrying much term. If a Demko type is available, I’m all over that.

Edited January 19, 2023 by dudacek

[TageMVP]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Nah, the Sabres should not throw away assets on another center.  They have TNT and Cozens, plus Kebs and Jost,  and they drafted 3 center prospects.

Use less prospect capital to acquire a top 4 defenseman or a goalie, and get another power forward (winger).  They need a few two way forwards - we stink in our end of the rink and we are mediocre at PK.   Lets fix the problems.  

Horvat plays the one position we have covered.  

So you're saying, right now, Cozens is better than Horvat? I don't agree. 

Cozens could be moved to winger if you're really worried about that. Granato moved Thompson to center and that worked out better than anyone hoped. 

You could have a second line of Cozens, Horvat and Oloffson. Or change Oloffson out. I wouldn't mind seeing Oloffson getting more minutes, in the form of playing on the second line. When the Peterka, Quinn, Cozens line was struggling I'm not sure why Oloffson did not get moved up. Simple and easy change there

Cozens is not great at face offs, Horvat is. Cozens could become our defacto tough guy winger. 

Unless I'm missing something that paints a clear picture that Cozens needs to stay a center 

[thewookie1]

If there's one theoretically available player I'd be interested in, it's Sam Bennett. He's a physical LW/C who's never been a prolific scorer, besides last year, but plays with that reckless abandon our team lacks. 

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, TageMVP said:

So you're saying, right now, Cozens is better than Horvat? I don't agree. 

Cozens could be moved to winger if you're really worried about that. Granato moved Thompson to center and that worked out better than anyone hoped. 

You could have a second line of Cozens, Horvat and Oloffson. Or change Oloffson out. I wouldn't mind seeing Oloffson getting more minutes, in the form of playing on the second line. When the Peterka, Quinn, Cozens line was struggling I'm not sure why Oloffson did not get moved up. Simple and easy change there

Cozens is not great at face offs, Horvat is. Cozens could become our defacto tough guy winger. 

Unless I'm missing something that paints a clear picture that Cozens needs to stay a center 

So your only reason to move Cozens to wing and acquire Horvat, who's 28 and will cost 8 million or more to retain, is Horvat is better at faceoffs? 

Olofsson wasn't moved up because the only thing he brings is his shot. 

[Buffalonill]

13 hours ago, TageMVP said:

Sabres should get in on Horvat 

No they shouldn't 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, TageMVP said:

So you're saying, right now, Cozens is better than Horvat? I don't agree. 

Cozens could be moved to winger if you're really worried about that. Granato moved Thompson to center and that worked out better than anyone hoped. 

You could have a second line of Cozens, Horvat and Oloffson. Or change Oloffson out. I wouldn't mind seeing Oloffson getting more minutes, in the form of playing on the second line. When the Peterka, Quinn, Cozens line was struggling I'm not sure why Oloffson did not get moved up. Simple and easy change there

Cozens is not great at face offs, Horvat is. Cozens could become our defacto tough guy winger. 

Unless I'm missing something that paints a clear picture that Cozens needs to stay a center 

No, never said Cozens is better than Horvat.  I said we have Tage and Cozens and other talent/prospects at C.  
 

If the price for Horvat is really 3 #1’s equivalents then I move on and prefer to upgrade RHD and also find a few strong two way forwards instead.  

 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

If there's one theoretically available player I'd be interested in, it's Sam Bennett. He's a physical LW/C who's never been a prolific scorer, besides last year, but plays with that reckless abandon our team lacks. 

Yes, we need this type of player on a third line, but I think he realistically falls into the “will never consider Buffalo” bucket.