Golden Knights at Sabres 11-10-22 7PM

[Eleven]

Well, I'm glad I wasn't able to watch.

[eman]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I wouldn't worry about it. This team is going to be streaky this year because they lack depth and they lack experience. Dahlin is a leader and a good leader knows that success is supposed to be easy in the NHL. 

First step is to stop the slide and the way to do that is to be better in their own zone which is the biggest failure right now. They can play offensively with any team in the league but the d zone is a nightmare, Adams needs to trade for a defender, sooner rather than later and honestly Joker and Samuelsson coming back doesn't change that. 

Not sure who would be available via trade and what would the other team want in return, to give us the type of D-man desired on this board. Not so easy to do for GM Kevyn. Also, it is early in the season so other teams might not yet know what part of their club could use an upgrade.

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, SwampD said:

On a completely different note, how the hell was Eichel so wide open on the first goal? I mean,…

@mjd1001 explained it pretty well ~ 1/2 a page up.

[eman]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

I didn’t see that when everyone here was saying those things, and I didn’t see it when the intermission guys were saying that. And I still don’t see the domination that everyone is talking about. I mean, unless their game-plan is to just get as many perimeter shots as possible and hope for a flukey goal?

Same with the Chi game.

 

I agree. Teams playing with a lead will give you the "perimeter game" for the rest of the night as it generally isn't dangerous and doesn't generate anything.

[Believer]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

So the question is at what level is best to develop them?  Not just Krebs, all three are in the same boat.

Granato talks about the need for experience… Fact is, experience can be good and bad… You can learn to fail just like you can learn to succeed…

Their play late last season in Rochester earned a shot here. Right now, none of the three are succeeding on balance at this level…

Would send all three down and tell Appert to put them together as a line… Let them succeed as a trio … They won’t like it but they will succeed there… Bring them back in a couple months… Hungry to succeed and stick here permanently 

Adams and Granato need to rethink what we are developing

 

[Thorny]

16 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Nah.  They're not in "win now" mode just yet.         

Adam's plan is to build from within, draft well and develop his own prospects.    He's done that, but there just isn't enough depth yet at some key positions, namely defense.    We know that, they know that, the entire league knows that and the opposition takes advantage.     That's pro hockey. 

 

Can't fall in love with your players to the extent you don't look for upgrades when available, just because, like Reilly. 

There's no rule saying we can't try to be good this year and pass up opportunities to do so that aren't high cost. Strict adherence to a plan despite the arrival of new information is a mistake. 

There's no guaranteed winning on the way, you have to make your own way. 

I dunno when any sort of roster augmentation became "mortgaging the future", but it's a folly idea. 

[SwampD]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

So many goals allowed last night, I rewatched them but just don't feel like putting a huge breakdown of every single goal and going frame-by-frame through the replays, so just some general observations on what cost the Sabres on the goals specifically:

-Comrie. He had a bad game, gave up a lot of rebounds, BIG rebounds, and you would want him to make more big stops than he did.  Bad game.

-Power, i don't want to say he is 'lost' in his own end because he isn't, but his positioning isn't great all the time. On Eichels goal Lyubushkin goes into the corner and Power goes to the other side to cover..not the bad play. But when Lyubushkin comes back toward the net, Power is very slow to get back to his side, leaving Eichel open for the goal.  Not an Awful play, but as he gets better hopefully his reaction time on positioning will get better on plays like this.

Overall, you just want Comrie to be better. Even though the Sabres gave up a lot of chances, if they had good goaltending they should win this game with 4 goals scored.

 

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

@mjd1001 explained it pretty well ~ 1/2 a page up.

I disagree with this take. The play was way too fast for Power to get back.

Pretty sure that Eichel should have either been Tage's os Hineystrokey's man.

Power had to take Stone.

Neither of those two ever turned their heads to see who was behind them and bang bang it was on Jack's stick.

Pretty bad.

[mjd1001]

30 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 

I disagree with this take. The play was way too fast for Power to get back.

Pretty sure that Eichel should have either been Tage's os Hineystrokey's man.

Power had to take Stone.

Neither of those two ever turned their heads to see who was behind them and bang bang it was on Jack's stick.

Pretty bad.

It may have been Thompson or Hinestroza to come over to cover Eichel on the off Wing, but once he walks to the side of the Net, Power needs to get back there.  Again, it is situational awareness and how quicly he recovers. I said in my original post you can't blame power 100% here, but if i'm going to put it on someone, I don't want him going to the other side of the net and leaving the entire lower half of his side uncovered.   

Maybe there was a defensive play being run and he did the correct thing? But I would rather have him stay in his position (where Eichel scored the goal from) and trust Tage (as the Center) to drop lower to cover the front of the net if/when Lyubushkin goes to the corner.

In general, you want your Wingers to cover the high points and the walls up high, the Center to be about where Tage is, but if a D-man runs into the corner, I want Tage to drop to cover the front of the net and Power to not leave his side 100% uncovered. Ultimately, if you don't get the puck within 5-10 seconds, everyone will start chasing and then you rely on the other team to make a bad pass or your goalie to make a great save.

It is something the Sabres have an issue with, the way the 2 D-men and the Center play in the Defensive zone.  Guys like Tage stay up top and don't leave the slot open, but they don't provide that assist to the D-men. Cozins, on the other hand, will leave the slot open right away for the chance to play down low.  I put this on the Centers over the D-mean though. The D-men are often in a position where they don't know if they are going to get help or not. If Tage and Cozens are going to play the same position, for the sake of D-zone coverage they have to play the same way or the D-men won't know where to go or who to cover.

Hockey is a lot more complicated i'm sure at the NHL level than I understand, but I would think if Skinner isn't going low into the corner after the puck, then Lyubushkin will.  If that is the case, Skinner has to cover the top of the faceoff circle on his side, Hinnestronza should do that on the other side. With the top of the zone kinda covered, Tage is free to drop down a bit and, if needed, tie up the opposing center in the front of the net, while Power doesn't have to leave his position.   We talk about how can a team like Boston be still so good as they are, maybe its not because of their pure physical talent, but because the above is second nature to them.  Quite possibly they hardly ever get caught out of position and their system is 2nd nature to them that it is automatic.  Can save them 50+ goals a year just by knowing where the need to be and knowing EACH OTHER so well they can rotate without making a mistake.

Edited November 11, 2022 by mjd1001

[SwampD]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

It may have been Thompson or Hinestroza to come over to cover Eichel on the off Wing, but once he walks to the side of the Net, Power needs to get back there.  Again, it is situational awareness and how quicly he recovers. I said in my original post you can't blame power 100% here, but if i'm going to put it on someone, I don't want him going to the other side of the net and leaving the entire lower half of his side uncovered.   

Maybe there was a defensive play being run and he did the correct thing? But I would rather have him stay in his position (where Eichel scored the goal from) and trust Tage (as the Center) to drop lower to cover the front of the net if/when Lyubushkin goes to the corner.

In general, you want your Wingers to cover the high points and the walls up high, the Center to be about where Tage is, but if a D-man runs into the corner, I want Tage to drop to cover the front of the net and Power to not leave his side 100% uncovered. Ultimately, if you don't get the puck within 5-10 seconds, everyone will start chasing and then you rely on the other team to make a bad pass or your goalie to make a great save.

It is something the Sabres have an issue with, the way the 2 D-men and the Center play in the Defensive zone.  Guys like Tage stay up top and don't leave the slot open, but they don't provide that assist to the D-men. Cozins, on the other hand, will leave the slot open right away for the chance to play down low.  I put this on the Centers over the D-mean though. The D-men are often in a position where they don't know if they are going to get help or not. If Tage and Cozens are going to play the same position, for the sake of D-zone coverage they have to play the same way or the D-men won't know where to go or who to cover.

I've watched that play a dozen times now. At speed, there is no way that Eichel was Power's guy. Unless, like you say, Stone should have been picked up by Tage, but he didn't. Power had to take him.

And again, Hiney and TT never turned their heads to see if anyone was behind them. It was really bad.

Edited November 11, 2022 by SwampD

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

You don't know that.

The concern w/ the surgery that he chose is there isn't much data on whether there will be a failure of the artificial disk given the type of hits he'll receive and the the number of them.  Should it fail, there is a serious risk of it being catastrophic. 

He wanted it because the recovery time was less than that of the fusion surgery plus he'd have better range of movement of the neck relative to the other procedure.  But, if he ends up paralyzed, those other advantages won't really matter now will they.

He made a decision that he felt was in his best interest. Are there risks? Of course there is, as with all surgeries. But there are also risks associated with the more invasive fusion procedure. You are right that there isn't as much data on this procedure as there is with the other procedure. But that doesn't mean that it was the best medical route to take. It just means that there wasn't as much data. 

Jack made a decision that he felt was in his best interest. And all indications are that he is back to his old form. And he has demonstrated this season that he is back to his pre-injury form. It's his body and he should have the last say on the best course of treatment. The issue isn't whether he made the right decision as it is his decision. 

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

He made a decision that he felt was in his best interest. Are there risks? Of course there is, as with all surgeries. But there are also risks associated with the more invasive fusion procedure. You are right that there isn't as much data on this procedure as there is with the other procedure. But that doesn't mean that it was the best medical route to take. It just means that there wasn't as much data. 

Jack made a decision that he felt was in his best interest. And all indications are that he is back to his old form. And he has demonstrated this season that he is back to his pre-injury form. It's his body and he should have the last say on the best course of treatment. The issue isn't whether he made the right decision as it is his decision. 

YOU stated "Jack was right in his steadfast stance."  You now stating that it doesn't matter whether it was the right decision does not change the fact that you don't know whether he did or didn't make the right decision. Nowhere near enough information yet & it really won't be known whether the decision was correct until we know whether the disk holds up.

[JohnC]

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

YOU stated "Jack was right in his steadfast stance."  You now stating that it doesn't matter whether it was the right decision does not change the fact that you don't know whether he did or didn't make the right decision. Nowhere near enough information yet & it really won't be known whether the decision was correct until we know whether the disk holds up.

It's his decision. That's my point. So far it seems that he has regained his form pre-injury. There are individuals who have cancer or heart issues or variety of other health issues where there are a variety of approaches for treatment. The patient usually listens to the experts and consider the options. The patient ultimately has the right to make the health decision. Whether it is the right decision or not, no one can know for sure until a later time. Whether it is the right decision for the long-run doesn't change the fact that it is the individual's right to make that health decision for himself. 

[Brawndo]

10 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Why single out Krebs?  What is Quinn doing that is any better?  Nothing.  He looks worse to me. 
 

Peterka is playing only a little bit better than these two,  After a good start he is fading away. 
 

So the question is at what level is best to develop them?  Not just Krebs, all three are in the same boat. 

 

5 hours ago, Believer said:

Granato talks about the need for experience… Fact is, experience can be good and bad… You can learn to fail just like you can learn to succeed…

Their play late last season in Rochester earned a shot here. Right now, none of the three are succeeding on balance at this level…

Would send all three down and tell Appert to put them together as a line… Let them succeed as a trio … They won’t like it but they will succeed there… Bring them back in a couple months… Hungry to succeed and stick here permanently 

Adams and Granato need to rethink what we are developing

 

All three have already proven themselves at the AHL Level and the only way to gain NHL Experience is by playing in the NHL. 
 

Krebs, Quinn and Peterka all have positive defensive metrics and are even out producing Mittelstadt 5 v 5 in terms of points.
 

Putting them in Rochester is going to hinder their development and it will also block the development of players who are down there this season 

[Believer]

28 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Putting them in Rochester is going to hinder their development and it will also block the development of players who are down there this season 

I get it… Long season… Four game skids happen… Youngest team in the NHL… Losing won’t last… I agree

The memory of Eichel, O’Reilly, Ulmark et al getting sick of losing here is still fresh… Will just hate to see these kids experience anything similar because of a multi-year development strategy that has only a secondary goal of winning hockey games with the best players on the ice… These kids need to experience winning at the pro level…here or in Rochester… to build their confidence along with their skills… Up to Pegula, Adams, and Granato to support development with winning… Adams is too complacent for me… Same with Granato… He talks about the kids needing to learn how to win at this level… Granato and Adams need to learn how to win doing their jobs at this level as well… End of rant 🤐 

[PASabreFan]

See also: economic. See also: job security.

It's not that complicated, folks.

Any remaining fans are in denial. The rest have moved on.

[Thorny]

14 hours ago, Believer said:

I get it… Long season… Four game skids happen… Youngest team in the NHL… Losing won’t last… I agree

The memory of Eichel, O’Reilly, Ulmark et al getting sick of losing here is still fresh… Will just hate to see these kids experience anything similar because of a multi-year development strategy that has only a secondary goal of winning hockey games with the best players on the ice… These kids need to experience winning at the pro level…here or in Rochester… to build their confidence along with their skills… Up to Pegula, Adams, and Granato to support development with winning… Adams is too complacent for me… Same with Granato… He talks about the kids needing to learn how to win at this level… Granato and Adams need to learn how to win doing their jobs at this level as well… End of rant 🤐 

In the end I think I come down somewhere similar as well - I do think there will need to be a conscious decision, at some point, to "flip the switch" on expectations, and strategy therein. I don't *think* that moment just evolves naturally. 

Not when the "it's not about winning, anyway" mentality has been so thoroughly imbibed by the franchise, into its very bones, for some many years now, and reinforced last year, and seemingly reinforced again, this season. 

It will need that EKG

Edited November 12, 2022 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:12 PM, Believer said:

I get it… Long season… Four game skids happen… Youngest team in the NHL… Losing won’t last… I agree

The memory of Eichel, O’Reilly, Ulmark et al getting sick of losing here is still fresh… Will just hate to see these kids experience anything similar because of a multi-year development strategy that has only a secondary goal of winning hockey games with the best players on the ice… These kids need to experience winning at the pro level…here or in Rochester… to build their confidence along with their skills… Up to Pegula, Adams, and Granato to support development with winning… Adams is too complacent for me… Same with Granato… He talks about the kids needing to learn how to win at this level… Granato and Adams need to learn how to win doing their jobs at this level as well… End of rant 🤐 

There is a huge difference in the stability and composition of the locker room now compared to those players were here. 
 

Quinn, Peterka and Krebs played on an Amerks Team that won two playoff rounds last spring, with Peterka in particular being a driving force behind the teams success.  The Sabres Team they are playing on now, does have eight losses currently, but with the exception of the Seattle and Vegas Games which ones did they look like they didn’t belong on the ice for the whole game with the other team? 
 

I have questioned Granato’s Lineup Decisions at times, but the Sabres Best Two Players Development can be directly attributed to Him. Thompson and Dahlin have both taken huge strides and have become All Star Level Players under His Tutelage.  Getting the New Core to develop to Their Maximum Potential is the Number One Priority for this team this season, as it should lead to sustained success in the future. 

During this Past Offseason, a few posters were upset that Ottawa, Detroit and Columbus made trades and/or UFA Splashes while Adams brought back Vinnie and signed Comrie and Lyubuskin. Out of those three only Detroit is ahead of the Sabres in the standings and which team looked better in their head to head matchup?  

Out of the UFA Defenseman signed this offseason, arguably only Kulak and Rutta have been good signings for there teams and both went to contenders. John Marino was almost certainly on the Sabres Radar, but they did not have a Ty Smith Level Defensive Prospect to send back in a trade.  That being said, there are very few teams who could withstand losing 50% of its starting defensive corps. 
 

If players had doubts about the future and direction of the team, Thompson could have signed His QF this coming Summer and been an UFA in 2024. 
 

Dahlin is on track to sign an extension with the team in the 10 Million Dollar AAV Range and will probably be named the Next Captain of the Sabres. Olofsson took a two year deal rather one to walk to UFA. The Players are seemingly onboard with the direction of the franchise

As Granato mentioned in His Appearance on the Athletic Podcast the organization’s top priority this season from Pegula and Adams is player development. Based on His Early Results with Dahlin and Thompson, He seems to be successful at it and He is exactly what they need right now. Whether He will be the HC in 2-3 years when they should be ready to be a Cup Contender remains to be seen. 
 

Adams may have zero experience in Front Office, but His Additions of Karmanos and Ventura have brought much needed experience though. 

[Believer]

15 hours ago, Brawndo said:

There is a huge difference in the stability and composition of the locker room now compared to those players were here. 

All good points in your thoughtful post… Thanks

[Doohickie]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:11 AM, Buffalonill said:

Some of you sound like a Jealous X

Darn right.  It's probably a good thing I've never been divorced.

[Doohickie]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:39 AM, NJhopelessSabresfan66 said:

I think we need to stop getting non physical players and add some grit, and yes even on the defensive side.

A gritty player can't add talent just because he decides to.  I think we've seen in Dahlin's example that a talented player can add grit when he's determined to.  Muel is physical but not especially gritty; I think he would become more so.  I expect Power to add physicality and grit as he matures.

When you get past the stalwarts, what do you prefer with the bottom D?  Grit?  Budget level talent?  a bit of both?  I think for the bottom pairing you're probably looking at getting one or the other.  I kind of miss Jake McCabe.  He would be nice on this team.

[Thorny]

On 11/13/2022 at 6:54 PM, Brawndo said:

During this Past Offseason, a few posters were upset that Ottawa, Detroit and Columbus made trades and/or UFA Splashes while Adams brought back Vinnie and signed Comrie and Lyubuskin. Out of those three only Detroit is ahead of the Sabres in the standings and which team looked better in their head to head matchup?  

Two teams that sucked stayed bad, what could Adams have even done?

Bit of a notable straw-man

Edited November 16, 2022 by Thorny

[Believer]

On 11/13/2022 at 7:54 PM, Brawndo said:

There is a huge difference in the stability and composition of the locker room now compared to those players were here. 

All good points in your thoughtful post… Thanks